in our role whose truth is it anyway on al-jazeera for we understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world. so no matter where you call. out is iraq we're bringing you the news and current affairs that matter to. al-jazeera. hello i'm daryn jordan in doha with the top stories on al-jazeera one of the philippines most prominent journalists has been found guilty of libel in a case seen as a major blow to press freedom maria ressa denies the charges concerning an article published on a news website rappler she's expected to appeal the conviction which carries a sentence of up to 6 years in prison. by. the journalists in this room the filipinos who are in this. protect your right.

we are men. we are meant to make you free. right so you again. you don't use your rights you will move them. probably. to try to roll back the rights guaranteed in the constitution we will lose them. al-jazeera is jamila and dugan has more now from outside the court in manila. currently facing 7 other cases filed against her including questions over the ownership of the online news network which she co-founded called rappler and also another libel case now we were just with maria over an hour ago we'll listen to a press conference that was organized by her lawyers shortly after the hearing and

the decision was handed down she appealed basically to filipinos not to be afraid not to even stop fighting for their fundamental rights she said also that this fight this is something that was expected she said this was still devastating and in no way is going to stop rappler and other journalists from continuing reports they say to continue its its fight and to write again against what they see are continuing abuses committed by those who are in power now this is important to remember this is not the only case that journalists are facing just over a month ago the biggest media network abia c.b.s. was also forcibly shot down after it failed to get its franchise renewed the death of a black man at the hands of police in the u.s. city of atlanta is being treated as a homicide the killing of racial groups some friday has again feel tensions in the police brutality and spark new protests across the country. turkey has launched

a military operation against kurdish targets in northern iraq war planes and struck the condo mountains targeting separatists fighters from the kurdistan workers' party k k. thousands of march in the brazilian city of south paolo to denounce the government's handling of the pandemic brazil has the 2nd highest number of covert 19 deaths worldwide with more than 43000 fatalities. france's president emanuel claiming its 1st victory in the fight against cope with 19 and some of the last remaining lockdown instructions the lifted the entire mainland including paris will be on the lower state of alert from monday restaurants and cafes in the capital will be allowed to operate at full capacity and more people can also return to work india plans to convert $500.00 railway coaches into makeshift hospitals offer a surge of new virus cases led to a shortage of beds in the capital the country reported another record jump in new

infections on sunday and neighboring pakistan is also seeing a record rise in new infections officials are warning the total could reach a 1000000 by the end of july more than a 1000 high risk areas have been sealed off including the capital islamabad 3 parties and island are expected to sign a coalition deal on monday to end for months of political deadlock michel martin is widely expected to take over from leverage because prime minister for a party won $37.00 seats in the island's $160.00 aliment in febreze elections would run because female party taking $35.00 seats the green party would also be in the alliance and the leaders of somalia and breakaway state somaliland have met in djibouti for talks somali lands president wants the 2 state process to defend what he sees as the region's independence somaliland split from somalia 991 but has never been internationally recognized for the headlines the news continues here on al-jazeera after head to head state of them still watching by foot.

some are fleeing poverty and persecution others simply hoping for a better future. many risk their lives to reach the developed world but does diversity make the west which we are and always will be a nation of immigrants doesn't threaten to break it apart. my guest tonight believes more immigration means less social cohesion and wants tighter controls to pull appeal later but is restricting immigration necessary or is it xenophobia. in discussions. and i've come here to the oxford union to go head to head with

professor suppose the renowned economist un advisor and bestselling author i'll be challenging him on whether immigration is a danger to western identity and whether closing the door helps or hurts poor countries. also be joined by. a british nigerian doctor and the managing director of the from. david goodhart journalist and an advocate of much tighter controls on immigration and. economist adviser and a supporter of open borders. ladies and gentlemen professor paul collier. an economist at the university his latest book says that a migration is changing. paul collier

we're both you and i were both the products of migration you were the grandson i believe of a german migrant i'm the son of indian immigrants to the u.k. in your book exodus you say that while immigration into developed countries from developing countries has had economic benefits in many ways it's been very good you also say that more and more immigration into the west poses a danger to social cohesion risks diluting our culture our national identity and may undermine trust corporation solidarity between members of the public those a pretty big claim some would say pretty controversial claims you know the debate on migration is polarized into 2 strident positions heartless and headedness. do you sound to be volunteering to be the head of this i'm certainly not going to volunteer to be the

heartless so we can find out tonight yeah of course migrations could it's like but it's like asking is is eating food good. if you don't eat food you're dead so you can eat too much just to take your analogy you don't stop eating food today on the basis that one day you might eat too much and nor do you stop migration today on the basis that one day you could have too much i'm not advocating stopping migration because you're tighter control more and more restrictions the reason for that is that immigration is driven by 2 things income gaps and the size of the us as the us rebuilds up migration tends to accelerate so at some point as it accelerates it would become too much. sorry but we do the same thing with climate change in case you haven't notice it's interesting you mention climate change because some of the reviews of your book pointed out that it wasn't really

ideal to compare migrants to c o 2 emissions in the sense well in the sense that if you start from the premise that c o 2 emissions are bad and we should control them it's almost implicit you're saying you're a man in the middle you know one of 2 extremes 1st of all your general tone is very skeptical and quite negative 1st of all c o 2 emissions are not bad until climate a big harm until they become an in the range of a problem c o 2 emissions we've had over the last 2000 years haven't been that the migration we've had to date hasn't been bad and it hasn't been bad but in the book you suggest it has been bad for social cohesion in some parts and that it will only get worse if you look at the relationship. between diversity and. other economic performance for wellbeing. then it's. shape if you get too much to. city they're more what the roads is corp 1st

and that shows up in much lower levels of trust in fact there's reams of evidence here in the u.k. for example out in europe which suggests that actually the reason societies are divided or lack of trust or lack cohesion has more to do with deprivation and poverty and inequality and not to do with greater immigration not to do with ethnic diversity let me just read you one quote european study said in 2008 found no evidence at all for what we consider to be this claim between diversity greater diversity and lower trust they say that the research you cited in your book which is american research is totally spurious when it comes to europe so there is a controversy or suggesting there is a 1st of there is 1st of all you're. focusing on what is the case now in europe as opposed to what should be focusing on. what would happen if there was a big increase in diversity that's just but that's done more in the realms of my speculation versus your speculation you talk about heartless and headless and you being this kind of middle of the road pragmatist some of the language you use many would say is not helpful it's

a little bit divisive might play into the hands of people you and i both don't like on the far right you refer to do you refer in the book almost in every other page to indigenous britons or indigenous members of the population which is you know has certain resonance to some people on the far right how do you define an indigenous brits and what is an indigenous person. we've got to have some sort of concept for the norm immigrant population what i mean remarkable use i did was say indigenous for that what does it mean can you define for those insurgents if we've got a concept of immigrant we've got to have a concept of nonimmigrant have a code so there is a concept of anonymous and. what's the concept of an immigrant my indigenous britain born here yes let me britain here because there are people who are born here indigenous we're ok so here's my question in your book you say that in the 2011 census it was revealed that the indigenous british had become

a minority in their own capital the census showed that 63 percent of the population of london was born in britain the only way you can get a minority status is if you're white british then you're a minority in london but. it's a phrase you've used in many interviews many articles in the daily mail a new statesman you think you can look to the 2nd generation this is not ask a simple question is that wrong is wrong isn't it in your book you say that the indigenous british are a minority in their own capital they're not 63 percent if you want to score a point then i'm not scoring a point i'm asking a professor of economics did he get a quite glaring error in his book no i didn't read it and didn't repeat it in the news no i didn't repeat it in the mail i didn't know where to glaring it. perfectly meaningful statement but the use of the human meaning the use of the word indigenous right. there are there are various definitions you can have i asked

you for your minutes here and you said you haven't gave you one so that doesn't apply to this one nearly killed me doesn't it certainly doesn't apply to them so what does that apply to in this context it applies to the the 2nd generation. the 2nd generation are not indigenous now according to the sentence then yeah absolutely yeah so am i am i not indigenous the of course you are right. but you know just sort of oh you look at you're going to me no seriously look it's a serious question all right so if. there's a process of absorption of immigrants into the society so that some people wouldn't really be culturally integrated after several generations some people will be culturally integrated within a decade. ok so what the census shows is an approximation so where would where would i and where would my daughter 2nd and 3rd generation where would we fit

in by the sound of things where you fit absolutely. those british don't you're indeed when you consider yourself as british i do consider myself a british but i read a book which told me that you know according to the definition. i'm not you can you move the definition of me twice 2nd it's just one last thing before i go to a panel you've been waiting very patiently to come in in your book you talk about migrants from developing countries tending to bring their own quote dysfunctional cultures with them to developed countries and in support of this you wrote quote unsurprisingly nigerian immigrants to other societies tend to be untrusting and opportunistic how is that not a sweeping statement some might say racist like the prices seem working in nigeria for many many years right now argyria is one of the lowest trust societies in the world and that's a different point there isn't it it's one thing to say society is a local society another thing to say that nigerian immigrants to other societies are your group of people tend to be untrusting and opportunistic that's pretty

offensive if you nigerian surely i'm sorry if it causes offense the what i'm trying to suggest is that people tend. to bring their culture with them we've made our make a very important distinction between culture and race anybody from any race can rock any culture ok let's go to our panel dr t.t. lola banjoko you're a british nigerian doctor advisor to the e.u. in the un on migration issues you also the founder of africa recruit what do you make of that can i 1st say that i don't take offense to what you said because i know i'm not one of those who had to find it and i think you've taken the narrow way and and you've used that sterile stereotype which is wrong to define the whole community if you say you've lived in nigeria you would know that there is a sense of trust of communities where people get together around be going to it's across the african continent where we don't even have agreements and we bring money

we share money with each other so what's the level is that not trust. to me that is trust here we define it as crowd funding but actually it's been going on in africa for centuries so there is a very high level of trust it's the level of trust of government which you're confusing with the level of trust of society not in terms of bringing habits to the country which i call my country here. actually there are some you said in your books a number of good things that we've brought one a caring attitude. which is why there is no surprise that many migrants work in the care sector respect for elders i respect you see i said i don't take offense i respect you do you think that's a valuable thing that we should all be sharing and learning i mean i read your book and i thought i defined it as a very good pub you know who in a pub will have a pub quiz it's a storybook there's no evidence you contradicted yourself so many times i've even

said let's come back imagine a comeback on a trust point and evidence point. 1st of all my own doctor is in nigeria moments so. i am able to distinguish between one another so there are. local community level support systems which are high trust. to say it's hard to africa's high trust know that the really high trust society in the world is japan ok let's go let's go to another member of our panel david good heart he's here he's the author of the book the british dream and you and your book david unlike paul you don't talk so much about indigenous you used the phrase if i remember correctly when i read it white british you get how people sometimes are quite suspicious when they hear those labels but i do think it's one of the best things about the debate in the last few years is that

we have been able to distinguish issues of race and racial justice from issues of the economic and yes in the cultural impact a very large scale immigration you do have very serious issues of integration and segregation almost half the ethnic minority population now live in wards where less than half of the population are white british that seems to me a kind of concentration and a sort of separating out that it's very unhealthy for for a good civic society where people do feel a mutual regard and they want to share we don't need to get into a statistical argument because of the all the stuff is always contested contested by people on all sides is it about the the racial composition of the population or is it about as poll asked me you know feeling british feeling english feeling european because again they seem to be mixed messages i think i think these things become sort of symbolic in a way no i don't think it is about white race but i think it is about scale and

speed of change let me bring in phillip mcgraw on who is also an economist all through the book immigrants your country needs them and their original question i asked to pull if you see what phillips could be coming from in the perspective of. paul made the common. at the start we talked about you know there are social and cultural cost to immigration not everything is good nothing's bad it depends how much given his belief that immigration is going to rapidly increase in coming years the whole multiplier effect asper effect is that a good enough reason therefore in your view even as a supporter of the actually we do need to do something about it before it gets out of control and damaging and put some controls and 1st of all there is no evidence of diversity actually reduces trust or social cohesion the evidence from. united states where they'll say they have a history of slavery and therefore polarized relations between whites and blacks studies in europe don't find that at all 2nd of all is accelerator model is not a recognized model of migration in fact it's contracted by the evidence the idea that it without controls that everyone moves and countries become depopulated is

contradicted by the evidence is in africa where there is next to nigeria nigeria 6 times richer and share is not depopulated basically there are controls between them is contradicted within europe where sweden is 6 times richer than romania remain is not depopulated it's contradicted within united states where mainland united states is 3 times richer than puerto rico and puerto rico is not populated so this is just spurious fear mongering this is not evidence based at all and you are using your position as a economist and claiming that evidence exists when actually it doesn't ok let's let . that sort of argument. really doesn't cut the mustard. is the. paper a couple of years ago called. finds that the single most powerful

driver of immigration migration is the size of the us can you find any example of your accelerator i can't actually there are i do so in the book you don't actually look at it out you don't actually i don't you just assert you draw like if you make a play and you claim expertise when you don't have it go look your money gratian actually go read the play but don't actually quote studies backing up your arguments i'm sorry if you want if you want things employers of a celebration of the example given the book is turkish cyprus. where there are more turkish sleep cypriots living in britain now than there are in turkey cyprus and i will come later i hope to one of the effects on the countries of origin thank you for doing the segue into the next discussion that's exactly what i want to ask you about you say that it might not just harm developed countries in the future in terms of cultural solidarity but that it actually could pose

a real danger to the development prospects of the countries quote left behind you talk about kind of the harm and damage that could be done what harm and damage you for and to specifically emigrants or migrants. they tend to be the the young the enterprising the skilled the educated. and people like that are if you like with fairy godmothers in any society they're useful to others and so country like say haiti where about 85 percent of the young educated leave that debilitate many would say haiti is an aberration given its history of natural disasters and being next door to the united states but i take your point if we were to if we would all agree with your thesis on this particular one of the poorest countries why should i not try and leave haiti and try and get a better job rather than stay in a country ruled by dictators dominated by corruption blighted by natural disasters purely by the bad luck of my birth people turn have the right to live anywhere

in the world without the right to leave their country and it's a human right of course you would admit as you do in the book just for context i think it's $400000000000.00 in remittances back from skilled migrants to those poor countries those people because they're productive skilled energetic if they'd stayed in their country they would also have produced no more glass there's no evidence for that that's one of the last what they were what the critics say about your book is no evidence that if you keep a skilled bunch of people in a hellhole that hellhole will become heaven look there's very evidence for that no . that is abusive language. that you describe as hellhole. are the societies which absolutely have to catch up with the rest of the your employer leaving stop over keep in mind there is no evidence for the most in challenge for the 21st

century is that the poorest societies catch up with the rest read just a philosophical level it's wonder your view would it be a good thing a morally commendable thing for those poorer countries to put in immigration controls to stop those skilled energetic young people from leaving in the 1st place nobody like north korea or cuba and no problem is no obviously not obviously because there is no moral right to restrict exit that is turning a country into a prison how is it morally different to say you can't stop people from leaving so what we'll do is we'll do that for you by stopping them from coming what i'm advocating is people should. get skills get education go back get something to come here to work and settle you do you want less i don't want less i want to. prevent an acceleration certainly let's go back to our panel this movement of

peoples especially from the developing world to develop world can be if the brain drain exceeds the brain drain very damaging what's your response to that is not just the developing countries even this country is losing skills to australia to canada so it's it's all about people searching for petunias and people will continue to search a lot of people actually are going back to the continent of africa and i'm sure you know that this is not about that so there is a lot of speculation going on what the what we can do is restrict the flow of money from the very rich who take money from these countries and bring it to the west i'm in battle with you to try and. break the banking secrecy which permits if you've been a journalist for many years been around the political scene surely you and i both know that when governments are making these decisions about restricting immigration and keeping foreigners out it's not very much to do with caring about the developing countries and their futures. it is. reacting to public opinion although

actually i think let's not take people take the brightest in the best of all those countries and the the area where this is most scandalous that we haven't spoken about is the area of health care i think that something like one 3rd of all the nurses working in london have come relatively recently from other countries many of them very poor countries that cannot afford to lose their trained health care workers and what's your response to david and paul there's a contradiction at the heart again of his book i mean in the beginning he is explained his theory of under-development which is that poor countries are poor use of what he calls dysfunctional social models now if that's true why would preventing skilled people change anything it's a dysfunctional social model that makes them poor so keeping the skilled people there they're still going to be poor i mean and look at north korea. it prevents emigration has that somehow made it rich your argument simply don't stand up

they're absolutely incoherent and ridiculous is the. point last point at the end if you don't say having said how terrible it is that they're skilled immigration from poor countries you then say that actually rich countries should select migrants on the basis of skills and employability you left sheffield to go work in washington at the world bank for your self improvement ditch if since you're so brilliant sheffield presumably lost out as a result should you have been prevented from moving i don't think so should you have stated your field full of your being. i chose my self interest there was a tension as there is with a lot of migrants between do i look after myself or do i care about the people left behind while some of them are doing both by sending about income to sell those countries. this is. the average migrant from a poor country sends back a $1000.00 a year. that's not

a great song if if they're bright energetic and skilled and they stayed in their country they'd probably generate more than a 1000 total assumption probably the evidence is not there is no evidence evidence of something but there's always more evidence or there really is no no your account informal remittances can i just corrected a. lot of informal images which you do have mill idea about. take a break we're going to come back in part 2 to talk about one other area of the migration debate because a lot of heat asylum and immigration and proposals for what to do with refugees will also be hearing from our audience here in the oxford union join us for part 2 of head to head after the break. we want to care bring your people back to life i'm sorry. but it's on the best of al-jazeera documentaries destroy the 14 year old boy from back to the.

distance rewind continues with baltimore anatomy of an american city called friends who were lost to the streets i can literally see the future of baltimore to the. rewind on al-jazeera to scarcity has become a major issue the demand is going straight up and the supply is going straight down turning an essential natural resource into a commodity traded for profit just because. it cannot be what about the guy afford it tele's water in a new 2 part series al-jazeera examines the social financial and environmental impact of water privatized sation loads of water on al-jazeera i was. working in asia and africa there few days where i'd be choosing editing my own stories in a refugee camp to see. and right now we're confronting some of the greatest

challenges that humanity has ever faced and i really believe that the only way we can do that is with compassion and generosity and come from lions because of the only way we can try to solve any of these problems is together that's why al jazeera so important we make those connections. hello i'm daryn jordan in doha with the top stories here on al-jazeera one of the philippines most prominent journalists has been found guilty of libel in a case seen as a major blow to press freedom maria ressa denies the charges concerning an article published on a news website wroclaw it's one of several against the site which is highlighted extradition killings and abuses during president attacked his time in office rice is expected to appeal the conviction which carries a sentence of up to 6 years in prison. i appeal to you the

journalist in this room the filipinos who are listening. to protect your right. we are men. we are meant to make you free. right so you again. because you don't use your rights you will move them. probably agree to try to roll back the rights guaranteed in the constitution we will lose them for death of a black man of the hands of police in the u.s. city of atlanta is being treated as a homicide the killing of racial brooks on friday has again fueled tensions over police brutality and spot new protests across the country. turkey's launched a military operation against kurdish targets in northern iraq war planes of struck

the kandil mountains targeting separatist fighters from the kurdistan workers' party p.k. k. thousands of march in the brazilian city of south paolo to denounce the government's handling of the pandemic brazil has a 2nd highest number of cope with 19 deaths worldwide with more than 43000 fêtes alex's. 3 parties in ireland are expected to sign a coalition of the law on monday to end 4 months of political deadlock. in a gale on the green party that will be part of the alliance uniforms michel martin is widely expected to take over from leader of radical as prime minister and the leaders of somalia and breakaway state somaliland have met in djibouti for talks somalians president wants a 2 state process to defend what he sees as the region's independence somalia and split from somalia in 1901 but has never been internationally recognised those were the headlines the news continues on al-jazeera after head to head station time so

much about the. thank you. welcome back to head to head on al-jazeera we are talking about immigration with professor paul collier of oxford university in part one we talked about immigration from south to north we talked about integration we talked about the effect on the so-called left behind countries i just want to ask you this one group of migrants even the most hardline critics and opponents of immigration tend to put to one side and treat more generously all refugees and asylum seekers most people think we have a moral and a legal obligation to open our borders to people fleeing conflicts and persecution and you say the same in your book exodus but then you add this rather some might say you say when peace is restored you say people should be quote required to

return just to clarify would you forcibly refugees to their countries of origin against their will maybe no matter how long they've been settled in a new country of course not the cool thing we should be focused on with conflicts around the conflict. the conflicts. and the post conflict countries are the most vulnerable societies in the world very often they revert to conflict and so again a vital task is to try and make that conflict recovery. as successful as possible i work with a lot of conflicts societies and governments and the standard problem that governments face conflict is that all the skilled people are left. and so

i do think it's responsible to have policies which encourage people to go back when you should required to return so that that would be an oversight right that little you're a state yeah ok it's my of the sacred event is it's really to try and focus on the issue that it's of course it's very important to protect the skilled and educated by taking them out of the society whilst the conflict is happening but it's just to clarify while the conflicts happening if it's going on for years as many conflicts do should they have the right to settle here and work here that the presumption should be. that people should be. provided with a safe refuge with that with some sort of presumption of return and of course most refugees. don't. come to rich societies the other refugee camps and so they're the real challenge agree more important you see the conflicts

don't last that long according to the u.n.h.c.r. the average refugee now spend 17 years as a refugee rather than 9 years a decade previously some of these conflicts in places like iraq afghanistan the democratic republic of congo even in pakistan violence doesn't seem to be abating at all i mean how do you say to people now's the time safe when you decide it's safe we must encourage all to go back quite often. there are there are a peace settlement switched to mark. an end to conflict a time where without a peace settlement people can stay but if there's a place that will be our only sure thing so iraqis today if you take a real world example iraqis living in the west would you don't want them to be required to return to encourage to return of course not of course it's still in conflict very obviously while they're here with their families they shouldn't integrate they should where possible retain their links. with

iraq so that when the conflict is over which it will be. then they can go back and help rebuild their country if you've been in a country 10 years 12 years 15 years 20 years you've had kids they've gone to school they've never seen that country that you move from they don't speak the language absolutely required to return no no of course not but there's a desperate situation or a small group of people trying to restore a country desperately short of skilled people who know the society and the key resource to draw on is the skilled the aspirant even in afghanistan one of my students last year. gone by is trying to rebuild the society is brave you probably he was a hero because he volunteered to go and do that he didn't do that because. british government pressuring no get out but we have a duty of rescue in a context in which there's a larger duty to try and help rebuild these societies from being smashed up

conflict is not agreement in the same would say divorce those 2 debates the refugees of it's too important to be tacked on to the development debate the priorities poor refugee debate is not what happens here it's what happens in the refugee camp well it's interesting you raise that issue because of course a lot of people here talk about the issues of refugee in asylum and you raise the issue in your book that actually the west as a whole doesn't take enough refugees to begin with i think britain takes less than one percent of the world refugee population and developing countries take something like 86 percent of the world's refugees up from 70 percent a decade ago the refugees overwhelmingly are going to continue to be in countries that border areas of the conflict so the fate of refugees. does not really depend on whether a few 1000 more harm to the rich societies what matters is what happens to the millions agree and so agree it doesn't change our fundamental responsibility

is to make the those refugee camps far better place we call it economically opposite mutually exclusive we could it's a referral there's no different very polish peripheral because last year the british government took 90 syrians not 90090 syrians and it is a shameful year understand how many hundreds of thousands or millions of syrians actually need refuge yes i'd like us to give more money to refugee camps and also take in more refugees would you find ok there's goodwill and there's real balance a priority is the camps agreed let's go to our let's go to our panel. paul talks about refugees should be keeping links with the countries they fled from in order to be ready to go back and help rebuild i'm surprised that i mean i know that they already do that and many of them i know of

a lot of afghans healthcare professionals working in this country who go home regularly a medical mission trips to south sudan to somalia so in terms of not counted your previous argument where you were saying these people shouldn't these middle class people you've described actually doing more. to take materials they sacrifice a lot sacrificial given there's a difference between just throwing money out and sacrificing your life to do this like you did that knowledge that in the book let me let me bring in david david you'll remember in this country we talked about the u.k. context a lot of the stuff about immigration you talk about how the debate has changed what's your position today on the on the refugee asylum part of this debate i think most people in this country still believe in the idea of providing asylum in one of the problems here is though that the definition of. qualifies for asylum has expanded and expanded and expanded so there are now on some calculations perhaps 1000000000 people out there in the world who could technically qualified to come here as an asylum seeker which i think is

a problem. but then if you are thinking about places that are experiencing civil war or natural disasters of one kind or another we should pay a decent temporary. villages cities for people like that and they can then keep an eye on what is happening in their country they'll be closer to what's going on and they will know when it is safe to return to your point if they do reach it and many do through genuine persecution and are ended up settling here for several years do you believe they should have the right to settle here have children if they are genuine asylum seekers who are whose lives are in danger in some way in the country if they come down saying the danger is gone with several years down the line but they've been here they're working they got no i don't think it is actually to leave. the presumption should be they should go back. briefly philip. again for the argument i mean he he says only it you agree only a tiny proportion of refugees go to the west so it's only

a tiny proportion why is it so essential for their country's future that tiny proportion go back. to lip. who are the refugees who get to the west there the more educated. more able the people best able to get out. the people with the biggest incentive to get out of the most educated right now that's perfectly sensible with us but it is a rational self-interest of the people who are living off of their social category only sense highly skilled it's it's the poor it's the middle class it's the even the rich it's all sorts of people just there's this place from sarah that's just not true for the people who have education a much more likely to come as far as the west than the people with their ok let's leave it there we're going to bring in our audience to ask them questions trying to

be a point short as possible as go here to the front row later here in the front row and then we'll go to the back isn't it arguable that. in those countries where we have either started the conflict or we have prolonged the conflict that we have a greater moral responsibility to take in more refugees rather than giving the burden to the neighbors i was there just want to say that under the 151 united nations refugee convention we have a legal obligation to take in genuine refugees and the convention does not put a time limit on how long these refugees can stay ok. yes webb where we where we cause conflicts we've obviously got more moral responsibility than where we didn't cause them but. we've still got a moral responsibility even where we didn't cause them because basically we should

be navigating by need here but the but the but to just to reiterate. migration to the west is a peripheral aspect. of what to do when there's a conflict the really important thing is to help to rebuild the society after conflict whilst treating the vast number of refugees well during the conflict what the legal point she made that actually what you propose is illegal under international law to set a time limit on how long refugees can stay i'm an economist not a lawyer and i tend to think that. the lawyers look at things in a rather blinkered way that what we should and what my home is. what economists look at is try to look at is what's best for society ok let's go to the lady in the row and then the gentleman next to a migrant from malawi in africa there's been

a lot of mention quite a lot about the damage that migrants from my part of the world to t.k. culture i want to know exactly what do you mean by that when you talk about trust to me the biggest abuses us house of trust on a massive scale lately has been linked to the great recession which had nothing to do with people from my part of the world and a lot of us become citizens as well our story becomes part of britain story you know isn't this more about living with difference and you're an easy is that you have to earn. and for if you got a sense that i'm saying immigrants from malawi or anywhere else so called problems in britain or anywhere else i'm not right. you are. you're misinterpreting. pretty fundamentally what i'm saying. so. we have more. always go back to the beginning discussions we

still know it's been good till now it's been good but in the future it's going to be bad. that's what i'm struggling i've been struggling with throughout or maybe you're not really struggling what i'm saying. what i say. is that there is a good reason to think that migration left to itself without controls would accelerate the red herring who's leaving to itself who's calling for migration without control by off a 1000000 a year we were going to have a population of 18000000 by 2050 i mean nobody has any direct you know. because of the future but it is about this scale it's about this scale of change now this audience is mainly you know highly educated mobile liberal that they are comfortable you're comfortable with change most people in most societies are not they've not taken account of those perfectly normal human feelings and polish he

also says in his book that microstrip be selected on the basis of cultural distance so actually he doesn't want people from malawi he wants more people who he considers similar to himself ok let's. say audience section promise don let's bring in some more gentlemen here next yes yes i wanted to say that there was this debate between. diversity and trust but you know i think trust is maybe overrated i mean i come from ireland we had to indigenous populations katha the comparable the student the been there for hundreds of years they didn't trust each other and they fought against each other and kill each other and in fact it might have been good if we had people from china from somewhere maybe to actually go there and i also think that we don't need this trust we need the rule of law so you have the rule of law and i might not trust you you might not trust me you're a stranger i'm not from your village you're from another village you're from another religion but we exist within the rule of law tradition. and we get along ok

building. and. clearly polarize societies. are the worst night and so as you wittily point out a bit of diversity the breaks polarization might be might be an improvement and probably would have been on. the point about. law as a substitute for trust do we want a society that has mutual respect or do we want a society that moves beyond mutual respect to mutual regard. and the mutual respect is what you would see through the law you have to respect each other like it or not as it were but. a good society actually moves beyond respect to mutual regard because it's that move that actually builds

willingness to be generous to other people gentlemen here in the 2nd which is a question for the professor do you think that a sensible policy for migration you're talking about temporary migrants might be to allow in only the work themselves to keep their families outside of the countries to not allow them to vote to only allow them to go back home maybe 3 weeks every 2 years to keep them an inferior conditions to give them worse health facilities and the reason i ask this is because it seems to work really well in qatar. saudi arabia and countries out there doesn't it's not here to speak about arab regimes he said speak about his book so i asked him could be very good i think if you will came here tonight and asked him a series of questions about how he thinks about how abysmally gulf kingdoms treat them are very odd one hour that me and paul collier spent talking about that to be fair to the questioner. i do discuss the gulf migration policies

in the book and what i say about them and what i say about them is that. for somebody like philip they're perfect they get all loads of economic gains so they take all the economic boxes and. they are absolutely disgusting and not something that a western society could dances like to me in. my case the point why do we let more of them into the u.k. that's what i'd like to see would you like to see that as well because a lot of people would like to come and work here i'm sure but you and david be the 1st people to go on. no this is not ok let's go back to the audience with some of course went back to theater let's take let's take the coolest text and we'll be waiting very patiently here in the jacket 2nd row mike's coming to stand by. my name is i have a coca leaf. from the country cause of

a problem caused by the british. my arrival here i was detained for several months before after a legal battle i won my case i was given their refugee status. so my question to you according to your book is hard do you plan to get refused is we've been here for more than 70 years to return and rebuild a country. that involved forcefully moved. which would cause retiree's in effect to these families no of course not right. the. let me be clear about not i'm not advocating for street perforation i don't know which country you're from. cameron. the. but the we could go around the circle again but no one i'm not your britain is now your home and you're right. but there's clearly

a need in the cameroon too for for some people to help. build that society so that it catches up with britain so that future generations in the cameroon don't face this huge income gap and lack the civil rights. to take hold of them. running out of time gentlemen in the 3rd row yes it strikes me that a lot of this discussion has been about self interest verses in your interest for the community i myself am from malaysia but i've been raised in the us i have an american accent how would you engender this sense of community values what we need to do for that so that at least the people that aren't forced migrants are interested in going back many migrants reconcile that tension by actually doing a lot for their original societies. and but that is a process that to be basically to be to be celebrated and encourage but i think

it's very important that. we shouldn't just look at self interest there's a sort of libertarian culture which is quite common. in in economics which basically reduces to people should be free to pursue their self-interest and i think the real limits to pull one last question for me before we finish there's a lot of ignorance obviously on the subject a lot of fear mongering from certain sections of the political spectrum opinion polls suggest that a lot of british people lot of french people all americans other canadians. overestimate for example how many migrants are living in their societies as a lot of fear fear of change to quote david. what do you say to people who say that when we obsess about immigration in this way when we have this perspective. and when you write about the that we all worry about the future accelerating rate and the harm that may come you'll simply playing into that hysteria you're playing into

that ignorance rather than kind of challenging it and controlling it 1st of all i really whatever i can be accused of. creating europe's histeria about migration are not guilty right nobody's nobody don't you that. what i what was it my wider point which i was trying to make about some of the theory around this debate what we've got is a polarized strident debate in which the extremes shout a lot and the center stays silent. because center politicians should just. want the subject to go away and that is a dereliction of duty on the part of the politicians of the center we need to seize the debate to say it's not. the

migration is terrible my gracious is wonderful migration is a relatively minor process. for the rich countries that needs to be managed bearing taking into account the rather more important interest of the poor societies from which these people are coming and of course you would have if you would acknowledge i think the statistic out there that i came across that 97 percent of the world's population actually live in the country where they were born and so we lose that we're talking i think i read percent in the book right around that we're talking about a time a tiny element the reality for the future is not that we all turn into a global soup the reality for the future is people will live predominantly 97 percent in their own countries actually the big migration flows if we look at century since the big migration flows will have gone down not up. one thing in which phillips wrong which. was

a nice point on which to end is that. is the going down range and i feel as always that i like ration is not an integral part of globalization globalization of trade of capital flows is actually arms turner to give to moving people we shouldn't be moving people to jobs we should build a world in which jobs move to people who will have to leave it there thank you very much. as you have the oxford union thank you very much for our audience here in the uk to our wonderful panel of experts thank you very much for watching at home this debate is not going away could not. the.

international trade just would you have supported having free trade would not change your money or the japanese or chinese dogs or germany controversial immigration policies that anyone who has a well founded euro persecution should be able to comment the wealth minister from syria has closed the door to syrian refugees is that compassionate maybe his son goes head to head with senior trump advisor stephen moore this year the trump deficit crossed a trillion dollars do the urging of the world not to reelect him will from well no not now then go on al jazeera one of the really special things that work in progress here is that even as a camera woman i get to have so much input in contribution to a story i feel we cover this region better than anyone else would be very challenging the ability particularly because you have a lot of people that are divided on political issues we are we the people we live to tell the real stories are just mended is to deliver in-depth journalism we don't feel inferior to the audience across the globe.

how the wind the northerly is getting hotter there's not much else to talk about the risk cloud around the coast of amman hasn't yet seen the kurdish city in salalah in a few showers potentially in turkey but in between is just hot of course is the strength of the wind probably is at its highest at the moment so focus wise was slowly bringing it down never less it comes out of iraq and goes down towards amman the u.a.e. with temperatures it $48.00 in kuwait it's a hot with in fact in kuwait we get it to about 50 on tuesday yeah that's a high temperature during the days the record of course is nearly there 45 in doha 48 in baghdad is still pretty warm or way across western society where you might get a shower or 2 up in the mountains though it does seem likely the monsoon wind is blowing up the coast of tanzania kenya and somalia and of course the monsoon is broken now

in india quite a long way north so there isn't much rain on this wind itself is a bit on the coast particularly once again in somalia so we look to showers which are building quite nicely of these if you heard harlan's both sudan and south sudan indeed the forecast for juba was suggested to sherry if not every day that at least very frequently with thunderstorms properly by thursday. short films of. and inspiration. snow stories of 3 young women challenging the world around them.

al-jazeera selects. now all jews or. what ever. we have democracy or not. let us be one. of those who press freedom in the philippines 2 journalists are convicted for the 1st time in a libel case. committed al this is al jazeera live from doha also coming up turkey carries out multiple airstrikes across northern iraq against kurdish forces it called.