villages living around the forest of already cut down some trees to make space to grow sugarcane they hope to sell to the company the environmentally safe nothing is done the rest of the forest will eventually suffer the same fate malcolm webb al-jazeera. it is good to have you with us hello adrian fenty going to hit in doha the headlines on al-jazeera u.s. president donald trump has been back out of the crowds trying to fire up a campaign that was interrupted by his covert 19 infection from primates supporters in florida taking to the stage without a mosque in the white house doctor confirmed that he tested negative for the virus very few in the crowd will mosques either if you vote for me prosperity will search normal life that's all we what we wanted normal life will fully resume. and the florida tourism and hospitality industries that i know so well the richest

doric do highs highs like they've never reached before biden would terminate their recovery delay the backseat prolong the pandemic and annihilate florida's economy with kone an unscientific walk down that's what he wants to lock in. the confirmation hearing for a new u.s. supreme court judge has begun in washington republicans want amy kone barrett in place ahead of next month's election democrats say the process should take place after a new president has been chosen plays his opposition leader on why bring him has met the king in a bid to form a new government and was been trying to prove that he has the parliamentary support needed to replace prime minister well he didn't yet seen the opposition leader says that he had a strong majority last month to form a government. pharmaceutical company in the final stages of its covert 19 vaccine trial has temporarily stopped its study after

a participant became ill johnson and johnson says the unexplained sickness is being reviewed the final stage of the trial involved 60000 people protesters in argentina accuse the president of mishandling the coronavirus pandemic demonstrators are also angry about the worsening economic crisis there and they're against plans to reform the judiciary which they believe are efforts to protect the political elite health care workers in china testing all 9000000 residents of an entire city in just 5 days they've done 3000000 so far and expect to be finished before the end of the week it follows a dozen cases links to a hospital treating coronavirus patients in qingdao those are the headlines more news for you here on out 0 of the inside story thanks. from told to al-jazeera. is the government will take the necessary action to really address some of the structural issues we listen i still think that travel is the safest mode of travel

and to spend that we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter to 0. the q one on conspiracy theory is all about the u.s. government supposedly pitting donald trump against the so-called deep state so why is it suddenly spreading in europe and particularly in germany this is inside story . hello and welcome to the program. it's theories have been repeatedly debunked at the conspiracy movement known as q and on continues to thrive what began in the u.s. 3 years ago is now growing rapidly in other parts of the world surprisingly some of the fastest growth is in non english speaking countries such as germany and the

coronavirus pandemic appears to be one of the things pushing this growth so what exactly is she went on and how did it start q one on says president don't trump is saving the world from an elite cult of satan worshipping pedophiles made up of democratic politicians billionaires and hollywood celebrities supporters spread a wide range of unfounded conspiracy theories and anti semitic beliefs to predict what they call a great awakening that's when a wider audience will supposedly embrace their theories leading to a storm when the alleged child abusers face justice q and on started in the us in october 2017 with an anonymous post on the 4 chan platform the user calls him or herself cue a reference to the high level u.s. security clearance he supposedly holds. q. and ons roots lie in pizza gate a 2016 conspiracy theory that alleged leading democratic party politicians were running a child sex ring from a pizza shop in washington d.c. . all right let's bring in

our guests in brussels sergey like in ski as a member of the european parliament where he is part of the alliance 90 group also in berlin caroline sender she's a visiting researcher at the whites and mom institute and a fellow at harvard's kennedy school of government and in athens brook nair he's a political analyst and a professor at stanford university's berlin campus welcome to the show circuit let me start with you you know cuban on has been described as at 1st a distinctly american phenomenon just how much has it spread beyond the u.s. and how big is the problem in europe right now well cuban on who it is it is part of a larger movement and europe and especially in germany at not a movement of conspiracy theories over all there is we just recently have a demonstration. against it managers and a lot of those people demonstrating there in front of the ground and the gate

a very symbolic place. where those who at least sympathize. theories i wouldn't say that you are not as the leading experience a theory in germany we have many others we have the so-called ice of the citizens of the right. whereas right doesn't necessarily mean that not right those of the people who don't recognize the german federal republic as a. functioning country and who still say that our country is still occupied and we don't have a constitution for example which would be functioning so there is a and i don't of various shades of conspiracy theories who have come up now especially during the crisis but where there have been there before as well odrick to pick up on some of what sergei was describing a q and on is often described as

a conspiracy theory but really it's more of a why. ranging network of conspiracy theories correct correct. i wouldn't give too much weight and totally agree with that so he just said that it's not one coherent phenomenon and i also don't think that it is the main one or something that is more powerful in germany i think what they do differently from the reich wing populist movements that we saw picking up on the influx of mike rents in 2015 is that they don't need to put the situation but they exploit and play with people's fears but they sentence 5 general humko or have to tie in scandalising things or expressing anger or more mobilizing a certain interest in something which is not just mainstream politics and you don't have thought always been around but now it's possible to connect to the internet

work together and from another place a split 2nd you just said in front of politically of prominent spots like the problem vo gave or that like stark and them that gets the public attention like we now give them public attention by discussing them on television caroline how is it the q. and on was able to jump as quickly and as dramatically from the virtual world to the real world well i think as my esteemed panelists have highlighted some of this deals with fear so you know in and recently in august the atlantic covered how really influential influencer is on instagram so mothers who are becoming social media influencers and serve using this platform post a lot of pastel hues things that we would see as much more like mainstream is that it's that have this sort of softness to them that they've been using save the children hash tag hash tag as popular as also by q.

and a and so what cumin on is doing is really playing upon it's a very. commonplace figures and they're this sort of nebulous network right of a bunch of different talking points one of those being something like save the children and save the children of something that you know is a bit perhaps more palatable to certain members of varying populations right because it's it's it's miss considering facts and building on conspiracy theories around human and child trafficking but it's packaged in this way that sort of instills fear even in one could argue more like middle class or mainstream audiences because it's dealing with things related to children so i think they are finding entry points into commonplace fears using that as a place to serve misconstrue and then create you know misinformation and this information with and that sergey i saw you nodding quite a bit to what carolyn was saying there of did you want to add to the point she was making. this is living in interesting times historically

when there is this 'd combination of irrationality. and disbelieves and basically rejection of i'll son to troops is but also there's this gave me with. sexual and over sexualized 'd at least as they are trait by many but also in conjunction with protection of children with caroline was saying and you know you don't have to be and a conspiracy theorist to to use and abuse stop it we saw those that many other areas in the world use you know look at what happened happening in russia where and you know it 'd was against homosexuals and optional children were there so it triggers a lot of. kind of instincts and protective stings of masses and of human

beings so i think that this is this gets and comes together in this weird theory and the question is of course why do people believe it you know what happens to human beings in situations of crisis uncertainty fear and historical moments like like we're living through now and what have we done wrong so that those people you know are basically big terms of their own fantasy. alric people in germany who promote nazi propaganda can be jailed but when it comes to conspiracy theories they're not really illegal unless they veer into hate speech so how tough does that fact make it for authorities in germany trying to fight q. and on well it's not only that we have to look at it from the perspective of what exactly of this theory or however you want to call it is it legal or not this is an

open society that is strongly committed to freedom rights which also includes the freedom of speech and i would always fight for someone so right to express nonsense and as long as the nonsense doesn't hurt anyone or doesn't cross the line of becoming a criminal matter or like hate speech i would always support a society that allows us to express nonsense and i guess a lot of what people think there is not thought through and highly political but it's an expression of i feel the same as others like what we just heard about of the moms who worry about the future of their job ren and it's a general feeling of uneasiness with complexity but i also don't think that it's a totally new phenomenon it's just like police violence this is not a new situation in the u.s.

the only new thing is not how it is filmed in the positive it wasn't filmed but it was still there when i was a student i learned from sociology professor it's that about a 3rd of germans are open 2 or 3 terry and thinking and now it becomes visual and it expresses itself in social media and chat rooms this is the new phenomenon but not the way you're thinking as such caroline one of the things that really propagated by q and on are these very ill and. anti semitic trope some of them bearing striking resemblance to and she semitic troops that are centuries old. why do you think these these anti semitic troops are such a prominent part of q. and that's such a question i think a lot of it does go back to. fears and conspiracy spaces you know as you just pointed out that anti-semitic tropes are centuries old and is a classic form of hate speech it is also one could say are arguably

a bias that has withstood sadly centuries of thought i think it's an easy sort of entry point but it is at least also as a in the us it is a lot of it is a basis in conspiracy theories and into like well known conspiracy theories so as you start to dive deeper into explorations sadly around the deep state there are conspiracy theories around jewish people with and that they're they're wrong but they are they are biased and there's one thing i would like to bring up serve with and that as we talk about these sort of century old you know very awful beliefs that people are holding on to what made philip and ryan milner to authors and professors who talk about the medical church or. they've written about human on and one thing that they've described as something that they call deep memetic frames and that a deeper magic frame is a framework where someone believes almost in their bones that something is true it

is an emotional belief it is something that logic cannot confront and i think when we are unpacking things like he went on or things like a deeper form of bias people are holding onto these magic frames and then they are finding content information online that reflects that way of thinking and that is that is what cuban and is effectively sergey in in which other countries are we seeing q and on start to take root and spread more wealth. compared to cook up to say you know i'm not your research or i'm not. politician now and and i only see a lot of concern coming from my colleagues from other countries we're here in the parliament you know sitting here in the european parliament and. chewing on another irrational theories and as used in our widespread 'd and many countries and it becomes a political problem as soon as we have to phase informational complains

and conduct information can dance about coke for example so we are now all talking here about there is a special committee which was out at the european parliament on this information and it has of course the true political component you know facing the intervention by. countries like russia or turkey for that matter china but it also has those components and something that will rebuild some action you know how do we balance out the freedom and liberty space in terms of you know letting people believe their nonsense on the one hand and on the other hand you know trying to prevent externalities to the society that result from that nonsense but can be potentially that we you know and we can look at that to the white house where you see some statements that go in that direction but just generally i think it is

important to understand and you know polling on what counts this is. i did research on and some of them when i was still a researcher and i think there's a similar kind semitism in that in very complicated times people are looking for very easy answers and try to kind of make sense out of things that don't make sense out there you know our world. so there's orienting so many and now that this structure and international ations and democracies is kind of falling apart in many cases people are trying to explain what is happening and it's always very easy to imagine a kind of a dark force that does control everything and where it gives sense and gives me to what is going on and can be you know people of jewish origin or it can be people

are like a like a sect you know like a. cult. being as to this so i think a lot of this has something to do with this complexity of the problems that they're facing and with people longing for easy answers and trying to ascribe the problems to one source over you heard sergey there mention in coven 1000 and misinformation and i want to ask you from your vantage point how much has the coronavirus pandemic been a catalyst for the growth of q. and on in different countries but it certainly helped to mobilize people who express their frustration the anger of the isolation and channel it in something which they are understanding is an alternative to mainstream that is confusing because if it's based on science and then science shows that it is changes the position from one week to the next we have

a very prominent scientist in germany with a lot of people who follow his weight of thinking and this is never about and not always fall into truth but the truth is an ongoing search and that is where people find confusing and if someone else comes and they don't trust the elites don't trust scientists look at them they don't even know what they thought last week and how they think something else this is so much in flux and so confusing that someone who pretends to know better and ignore since did you. dismantles the basis of what some top democrats existence of rather views that i speak on behalf of the people who don't need institutions of this is my understanding of the majority bastes democracy of them this is so much easier to follow and that it's not about the content it's more about that wish to believe that i understand the world better caroline last week facebook said that it's going to ban groups that openly support

q. and on but there have been efforts by facebook by twitter by other social media platforms in the past to try to get a handle on the situation that we're not very effective so will this new initiative from your perspective make an impact or is it already too late i guess the answer is a complicated one because it's a bit of yes and no it is a little late but i wouldn't argue that it's too late the platforming different groups has shown to be extremely helpful especially if we look at if we go back in time about 4 years and look at the american right and some of the steps have been taken at least in the united states the platforming more well known neo nazis for example it definitely affects traffic there drives down traffic it makes it harder to have so in facebook and twitter and act these policies it makes it much more difficult for individual members to exist on what we call the clear net so like a more clear mainstream enter net. if groups are having to you know cloud

flare and internet service provider if they are also delisting already platforming different information then these websites these areas they have to go into different spaces they have to potentially go on to tor and that's much harder to find it's much more harder to organize so the platforming is always i think a great thing groups should engage and it is a little late i would say for facebook it will be interesting to see how. how will how they tackle or handle q one on posts and groups and languages that are not written in english so julian york of the. kali of witness and a bunch of and a lot of other really great researchers and civil society have pointed out that other languages often get neglected in these measures on major platforms so we will need to sort of see specifically in german and in other languages how this is applique how this content actually is being taken down i think what it's something

to watch is things that are not explicitly q. went on but have the hallmarks of q. and a on thoughts perhaps not using direct human on hashtags but engaging in topics and then across different languages are those then taken down i've noticed just from my purview arise in. you know very dangerous memes that are sort of conflating bill gates as someone as a perpetrator behind coded you know similar to what we saw with george soros a while ago but i've been seeing needs in croatian i've been seeing anti mask wearing names also in croatian so it'll be interesting to see and i've been seeing these things on instagram and facebook so it will be very interesting to see how this stance facebook had is if it is actually replicated at scale or enacted at scale across different languages especially for focusing you know right now on europe and the e.u. so that's something you know we'll just have to sadly wait and see how effective it is but generally these measures are more effective than not acting them sergey

hatefulness has been apparent in q. and on related posts long before now from your perspective do you think it's taken you know facebook twitter other social media platforms to long to try to get a handle on this. look i am not you know on the proponent of a kind of a liberal democracy open society. i understand how difficult it is to tackle a problem like that in the society which is free you know. who what what sounds with us dismay to start you know 2 to 2 to ban cuban on which i think is right look at what facebook was doing but we have plenty of other theories which are just as harmful i mean look at the i mean i think that germany the much more prevalent. conspiracy theory is the one describing to bill gates. the powers of the dark

force. you know there are people who are talking about you know getting trying to chip. human beings making you know women in not not not getting children and cetera et cetera it's linked to. the vaccination practices etc etc this is a very wide spread and i dared to say this probably in germany at least from what i see is more widespread than that well what are we going to do without because everyone how this is a problem with. the theories like those they can be framed as criticism of elites in fact this is what they are is it might be a seat criticism of that weeks but who is going to make the distinction between what is what is healthy and what is not house anymore so i think we as democracies are in a very very challenging position out how to tackle those hateful

series and fantasies like they are in germany we have a ban on hate but it has a very clear limits and boundaries 'd on when you can ban something and i think this is the right way to go we need to work you. that occasion we need to work it with tackling pro people's problems and maybe talking to people more and explaining to them what i mentioned before the complexities of mrs surratt little moment and trying to take away the fear and uncertainty and by the way the role of leadership is to mental someone like merkel can do it very well so like this to trial is only harmful. alric we don't have much time left i want to ask you one last question i want to circle back to a point that you were making earlier in the show and focus for a moment on some very vulnerable populations in the world right now and how all

this is impacting them how much is q and on a threat to minorities and migrants when it is a very big threat to minorities because in that sense this particular strategy is to gain attention by playing with people's fear is in essence mature tarion if he finds an os versus them and the them it's always the minority to look down on me if i feel miserable i find someone who is even lower in social position and that creates a different form of tolerance or even tolerance to allow in certain cases even physical violence because it is ok if a larger group of people that should demises it and that is the beginning of something that is more than words it is that should devising violence against minorities all right we have run out of time so we're going to have to leave it there thanks so much to all our guests sergey like identity caroline cinders and olrik bruckner and thank you 2 for watching you can see the program again any time

by visiting our website al-jazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. the inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a.j. inside story for me to have a gentleman the whole team here by for now. so she's mental disease because 50 instead of only deaths of children and. staff. that's. lacking to say bad childhood education. should. be nice to see you leave soon.

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