not stopped essentially to the counts done until there is some evidence if there is any evidence and is unlikely to be a fraud the republicans must be concerned or at least some within the party must be concerned that this might not be so much about a legitimate legal challenge that needs to make its way through the. court process as it is about. provoking supporters to come out into the streets and possibly undermining any kind of faith or confidence in a joe biden victory. yeah there's no doubt about that the the president has been priming his most ardent supporters for months now that there's a reef roger elections when we have done a very significant amount of research remember decades that systematic fraud doesn't exist in american election systems and in fact they're very robust and very good and so but he's been sort of crimea supporters for this exact moment and what we're seeing is them just essentially trying to throw anything against the wall and

see what might stick it's going to start fading i believe quickly because it's one thing to have one state that's extremely close and maybe they feel like they can dispute some law around or something like that but by ms likely to win most of the remaining states nevada arizona georgia and pennsylvania which point. joe biden women need pennsylvania's electoral college votes at some point or in vice versa if you win that's of any would not hear you arizona nevada and so i thought leave the options are just going to fade and fade quickly and they are fairly quickly at this point all right thanks very much appreciate your thoughts of us this from shippensburg. so let's just quickly remind you of where we stand at the moment joe biden is edging closer to that magic number of 270 electoral college votes that could make and that would make him the next president of the united states now as we were hearing from our guest that he's been overtaking donald trump in 2 key

battleground states georgia in pennsylvania watching very closely based on how from these i see eye to press biden a secured 264 votes as you can see that donald trump at 214. well the race is tight in both states at the moment in georgia most the remaining votes of from atlanta and its suburbs now that traditionally leads toward traditionally leans towards the democrats and it's really helped joe biden get ahead but it's still a slim margin there and that's why the secretary of state has said that there will be a recount in georgia because the difference between the 2 candidates is so close biden has been overtaking trump in pennsylvania but his margin is already shrinking of course going to keep an eye on these numbers as a mail in ballots continue to be counted and bring you the latest as it comes in to us up front coming up next.

the votes are in for one of the most divisive elections in u.s. history but as the fight for the white house just getting started last this week's headliner former republican congressman jack kingston and in the arena will ask whether trump is amiss here to stay. checking certain thank you for joining me on up front as you and i are speaking right now there are still some votes in some key states that are still being counted but donald trump says he already won as early as wednesday morning he declared that he obviously that is not true the votes have not been counted he also

tweeted they are finding buying votes in pennsylvania wisconsin and michigan that's not true that is a lie counting votes is the way the process goes that is not stealing as he has said so jack why is the president united states calling counting votes stealing. i think. the president's mood very clear he wants all legally cast votes counted period if there are they missed the deadline if they the form isn't filled out right but a lot of this should not be counted so i think the president of the senate listen we just want that legal vote so you know he said he said that that that they're finding votes counting votes means that they're only may go back and forth that's how counting works at our basketball game though so why is he calling it stealing well here here's what happens well he said they were still in there they said this

and in both now here's their stealing and multiple texts and ultimately me. i think the issue is every there's post election can only mysteriously it's always democrat votes that are found i don't know why are we so through those elections are not to help us out if you post election counting it's just counting post election means after the election is over several days for example in 2000 when another no no no jack hold a hold on and we're at where i want to stick with this election right now they're still counting ballots that came in or in person ballots and balance that came in by election day what is the problem with counting those votes in order to answer your question i'm going to have to give you a historic reference was there there's not one so it's very important for you to understand that 2008 we lost 3 congressional races in california after the election

10 days there were as votes were found certainly in the republicans who finished the election the night after care on top but those later they were lost that's why it is important to understand what happened in 2002 that this what the president is referring to that here we are almost on 08 so why is as opposed to casting aspersions on the entire process he could litigate that certain thing we're not going to litigate that what i'm saying is this has been going on for what we hold on jack on this isn't going on for a while that for weeks the president has been trying to question the integrity of the election the election process even before voting started does that not troubling you that the president of the united states has talked about the election that way if this were happening in another country the u.s. would be wagging their finger saying this is not how you conduct a democracy. well perhaps you need to be reminded that the budget ministration this is was done on the trumpet ministries in 2016 in 2009 i know i don't need to be

reminded of that because that's not true and that's not what the question is. absolutely as an answer to the question it's just that you don't like the answer here's the reality bomb aspirant on president jackson jack or not jack and no jack we're not going to do that we're not going to do that i want to talk about this no i want to talk about this is one of the most significant elections of our lifetime i want to talk about this election and the simple the simple question is this why not why the oh no jack but that you don't lose your narrative i don't have a narrative i have a question and the question simply is why can't we count all of the votes then if you want to lead a gate and have lawsuits do so but why would the president of the united states simply respect the electoral process this is not about past baseless allegations i'm talking about right now i don't think we have any argument challenging legal votes there's no dispute about that where we are concerned is when signatures don't when ballots show up in the dark of the night unexplained or here's

a box of 200 ballots where did they come from nobody. georgia my hometown right now so those are the irregularities that we are concerned about saying that ballots who are past the legal post more can be counted we are concerned about that listen i'm on the ground this is my home city so that towards and i'll give you another example of a well the county but no no no no no i can see already but i did not and these are perfect the problem is you guys always want to make donald trump anything he says but did you challenged hillary clinton when she said to joe stack them up jack jack jack this is 2020 no no no we're not doing hillary clinton but now we're talking. we're talking about this election let me ask you this there are some states where the supporter of summer travel trump says keep counting as other places where he's saying stop counting what actually is the strategy post-election

we just want to make sure that all the legal bell it's are counted and they're done in the proper manner give you an example signature manses on the absentee ballots are very important this is not just a matter of telling that it's what you can if the signatures are met and then you've got to put the vote in and the and those are why monitors are there from both parties. yes but in philadelphia as you know as somebody who's been watching this our monitors were not allowed inside and that would brought a lawsuit and finally got the judge to agree with us today about their the law in philadelphia pennsylvania as you know since that all ballots at. 8 o'clock on election night but a court split decision we're going through the legal process of appealing that decision how a court can decide something that the legislature has already passed just because they don't like it doesn't make any sense so that's the right of appeal that's the

sort of thing that we're doing so i still want to and to drill down on this one other thing are you concerned about the way the president of the united states talks about the election does that not concern you you know i don't know why the press is making a big deal about the no it does not concern matters concern if not it's i will not making a big deal about it the president the united states has been trashing the election process for weeks if this happened in another country we would not say it was ok if you will yield the floor part when he seconds go ahead sir did you hear him out wrote when hillary clinton hillary clinton hillary clinton hillary clinton did not use the same rat no jack i'm not going to let you do that here she did not use the same rhetoric that donald trump was do you want me to read all of his tweets can i just can't do it if there is a yes or a could go ahead. promise you hillary clinton told joe budden the results of this election regardless that bothers me now maybe she could say more smoothly. but she

still says so don't act like the ok so hold on that but the look so yeah ok here's your deer boiling this down to just a matter of style no it's a lot more than that what donald trump's rhetoric it is incendiary it is not just a difference in style between the 2 well then you certainly would be in agree the violence and marriage because look. at all so you can go. those that suits call it that's who's on the windows and looting so i'm still trying to keep pivoting to all these other issues that have nothing to do with what i'm trying to ask you no no no no no no the protests over the summer riots are short term the protests over the summer that's not about what i'm asking you right now earning power isn't bill and ok so let me ask you this the fact that the let me ask you just one last question jack or a if donald trump lose as soon as you and i speaking we don't know ok but let's

just say that he does does he not oh it to fellow americans to voters to stop attacking them and actually be conciliatory and try to unite the country that happened even in 2000 with that with the case of the one all the way to the supreme court thing bush v gore does president you know the president the united states oh it to chill out on twitter and just unite the country yes i do not want to follow hillary clinton's example from 2016 you know you got to stop that jackets are not the same and you know it's not what. it is absolutely it is absolutely not the same no no let me just work at no one there no one more question for me ask again very very simple very jack. jack we're not doing this we're not that so long i mean ask you one more time would you like for the president would you like for the president the united states to try to unite the country that's a simple question that's a simple question. if i can finish no no you can and what is

a yes or no would you like to present the united states to unite the country even if he loses do not do it will reclaim russia since. i don't drive the kind of jack kingston thank you thank you thank you very much for joining us on up thank you. the polls have been closed in the united states for days but the fight for the oval office continues as president donald trump tweets stop the count and democrats insist on counting every last vote joe biden is currently in the lead but even if donald trump leaves the white house will trump ism continue to dominate american politics and of the past 4 years divided the united states beyond repair joining me to debate this are jill filipovic a lawyer and journalist and author of the book ok boomer let's talk how my generation got left behind regaling co-founder of the lincoln project and former

political strategist for george w. bush and john mccain and ron enjoyed gray former national press secretary for bernie sanders and co-host of the podcast bad faith thank you all for joining me on front brianna i want to start with you as we are speaking right now joe biden is in the lead right but some of the left are shocked that it is even this close what shore reaction when you saw that at least 68000000 people voted for donald trump why do you think the race it's been so close yet well what's frustrating to provide left if i may be so bold as to speak for some some cohort of as is that the argument for a joe biden candidacy was all about his electability very few people understood or believe that there was some intrinsic value in this person who was in many ways more of the far right members of the democratic party cohort in the primary right it was a very large field and maybe one. or 2 people work to joe biden's right but he

wasn't received the really representing the overwhelming interest of the democratic party per se but he was perceived to be very much pushed by the media to be the most electable candidate so when it turns out that he has barely managed to win by the skin of his teeth it really throws into perspective whether or not we were right to give up universal health care single payer health care which according to a fox news poll 70 percent of americans support whether we are right to get a give up. college debt cancellation give up a robust green new developments which would already be taken off or just yeah so course what this election even really about policy donald trump had no policy was this not about an up or down vote on donald trump well i think that it was definitely pushed that way and that's part of why we see said disastrous down ballot results right people did not actually feel as inspired about these

candidates as they my otherwise have and in the midst of a global health condemning were 12000000 americans just lost their employer based insurance when 30 to 50000000 americans are facing eviction an addiction before torrijos their listing all around the country i think a lot of americans are wishing that there was much more of a policy focus in the democratic primary because policy absolutely does matter ok so let me put this question to you yes policy matters not an election with donald trump on the ballot right the issues that briana raises are very legitimate issues and there were discussed in the primary and we're going to come back to those but was this not an up or down vote on donald trump and why do you think 68 more than 6x8ww people still voted for him. this is not a policy election the republican party didn't even publish a new platform this year they just released a statement essentially saying we're repeating 20 sixteen's platforms and we pledge fealty to our dear leader so the idea that americans didn't get out to vote because

they weren't offered the kind of progressive policies that i honestly would love to see in place and is a bit divorced from the facts joe biden has secured miriam's more votes than donald trump he is projected to win the popular vote by a huge margin what's at issue is a few 1000 votes in a few states because of our fundamentally undemocratic electoral college system so i think the idea that voters just weren't given what they wanted policy wise it's not it's not supported by the fact this was a very much an election that was about personal. identity which party do you feel like speaks to you represents you culturally not necessarily what you know particular issues do you want to see either of these party is pushing the future because trump wasn't offering a single policy position and voters were instead rejecting troponin as you see down

ballot occasionally voting for republican congressmen and senators which really does suggest this was a referendum on the president and not a referendum on any particular policy issues as much as i wish that wasn't true ok so let me let me put that to read reader the co-founder of the lincoln project a group of anti trump republicans in some cases former republican juries tens of millions of dollars to put out some ads that were really popular this particular political cycle did those ad work because your ads don't only targeted donald trump in europe europe premises the whole party the whole republican party needs to be burned to the ground and start over that's not really what happened. well those are 2 different things you're talking about one is i think we targeted the president and we targeted him directly and personally because we saw that up until this point no one had laid a glove on him when it came to attacking him this was not a policy argument this isn't going to be

a policy argument you know for the next 24 hours or however long it takes to make sure that joe biden is is declared president elect this was about donald trump and when i think about you know the democratic primary going back over you know almost 2 years the one thing that didn't come up in those debates was donald trump it's always been about him he's the worst president united states in the history of the country probably 250000 americans or so are going to be dead in the next week or so and so it's always been about him and his failures our ads made sure that people understood one what it was he is and 2 we want to throw him off his gate and from the time that joe biden was the presumptive nominee until his campaign excuse me was ready to enter the fray you know fully you know when he accepted the democratic nomination we made sure that he was off kilter about coded about china about his own health about his children and about you know the racial animus that he has just to think you're wrong you know in this country do you think he reached republicans

with that message. well look 1st of all you all don't need to shake your heads at me because i'm not done talking 2nd i would say that you know. we would say that you know that the ads that we ran and please don't roll your eyes at me there i'm not being rude to you don't be rude to me i would say this is that you know you know yeah i mean right is that i mean read to their ad briana or e well let me just say this is a debate it's a healthy debate where we're all allowed even to enter chat from time to time and let's just be cordial to each other because i had renie. so so no what i would say is that you know that the vast majority of the work we did these of the voters was done in places like florida north carolina pennsylvania wisconsin and arizona we made a massive investment into the african-american community in pennsylvania to the tune of almost $2000000.00 we understood early on probably in late september that north carolina and florida were going away from us and go in towards donald trump and so

we pulled our resources out of there then we put them into pennsylvania we put them into wisconsin we put them into georgia and to arizona and so what i would say is that the vast majority of what we get attention for is going after the president putting him on the defensive cutting off his axes of attack on joe biden and going into those places where we need to move through what percent republican that went way way way let me just say this with what no one's going to be more surprised no one was no more surprised than me at just how deeply and broadly donald trump has not only affected the republican party but how he was able to drive turnout among it look i've been the 1st person to admit that i thought that tens of millions of more americans would repudiation no one is more upset about the fact that they didn't than me and so i think that we have a lot to talk about in this case in this country and i hope that both jill and brianna and i you know in another setting are able to sit down and talk about the things that we need to do in this country to figure out how we go forward so to let's talk about donald trump said that he wanted to take this to the supreme court

the the trump side has filed a lawsuit in michigan and they want to recount in wisconsin they want votes to stop in some places to keep going in other places are any of these legal challenges likely to be successful should they be taken seriously. i think right now it's it's a bit too early to tell the trump team has been really building up a very sophisticated very money and very prepared legal challenge to this election the good news is the democrats have done the same there are lawyers all over the country i'm both sides in every state very prepared to take this to the mat you know i think in terms of which of these cases will have legs to which ones are actually going to be supported it's simply unfortunately too early to tell and i think georgia just threw out one of these lawsuits so it seems like so far the trump team hasn't had huge successes challenging the vote counts like you say

sometimes wanting them to be counted in places where they think that's beneficial other times wanting to end the count you know they're really using the courts just to try to again rig the game in their favor and i'm hopeful that despite a real right wing takeover of the federal judiciary that everyone can really see what's happening here and that judges will maintain hopefully fair independence and to really cut off this effort to raise the game in their favor brianna let me ask you how much confidence do you have in how the courts and the judges will handle these these lawsuits you know 1st i just want to respond to the idea that the facts militate against the idea of a policy and progressive policies would have helped ballot in florida we did see the state passed the $15.00 minimum wage it's going to heart going to joe biden's agenda but he emphasized very much ok so so but so back to the question that i asked what are your thoughts on how the court is going to handle this barrage of lawsuits. i don't think i don't have very high expectations of the court the

court's willingness to be faithful here i think that donald trump with them an enormously successful job of stacking not just the supreme court but the appellate courts of the federal bench and that's a tally and his favor and that his his legal team has proved itself and said us and he is going to fight this tooth and nail to the very end part of why we needed to have more of a landslide victory here is that everyone predicted that donald trump was going to try to force this election to to stage a coup if you will joe you mentioned something earlier that that was in my notes and i'm glad you brought it up we need to talk about the electoral college it is it is dated some would say it is damaging to democracy it is not now i'm common for someone to win the popular vote 'd you lose the electoral college is a time to do away with it. yes. so far beyond time to do away with it democratic candidate has won the majority of the popular vote in 7 of the last 8

elections and yet we have not had a democratic president in office for 7 of the last 8 presidential terms in america we like to think about one person one vote that's it's sort of this foundational myth of how our democracy works it's not actually how democracy works and i do think democrats really underestimate kind of how easy frankly the sales pitch for getting rid of the electoral college is because of how we do understand democracy in the u.s. and you know republicans have the kind of track record record democrats have with the electoral college with the popular vote the electoral college would have been gone you know a decade ago so it's beyond time it should be on the top of the democratic agenda now obviously if the senate is republican and it's going to be hard for job to get much of anything done but this is one issue that is like a 5 alarm fire for democrats brianna do you see it that way. yeah i agree and it's

very fresh rating that after the costa lost that was 2000 and the extent to which so many conversations revolved around electoral reform there has been more progress on that score even when democrats have been in power as a black american who understands the roots of the electoral college where and considering my ancestors 3 fifths of a person for both counting reasons. deeply invested in getting rid of it and read you word when you in the lincoln projects stand on on the electoral college i don't know i would say this is that it's you know the constitution was made to be changed if it needed and if we can convince enough people in this country to amend the constitution then the american people in the constitution i think it's an argument that has to be had in a way that makes everybody feel like i think jill said that everybody has their voice but if if that is going to descend into

a little is it concerning to you that concerning well look i mean it's one of those things that's like it's concerning and briana's right about the way he was worried about it. but there is absolutely there's no question about it look the i mean that's the thing about the constitution the guys who wrote it most of them were slave owners right so there is an original sin that goes back to the beginning of the republic right the the thing that we need to do is figure out i think very much to brianna's point is how we make those things you know less damaging to americans today and more equitable from a voting perspective the electoral college can be done away with but we're going to have to convince americans not only in los angeles in new york city but also in des moines and duluth that it's in their best interest to have that happen and that will be the final word regaling feel for the public and really honestly great thank you so much for joining me in the arena that is the show for this week up front will be back next week.

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. joe biden inches closer to the white house holding narrow leads over president trump in georgia and pennsylvania but georgia is set for a recount because the gap between the 2 candidates is so small. and i'm maryam namazie and london you're watching al-jazeera the coming up on the program we'll be looking at president trump's reaction to all of this the campaign remaining defiant insisting the election isn't tova and continuing to alleged.