there are around 1200 child in the area who face eviction of property developers get their way. this year has given them a bit of a break. with no foreign tourists or chartered boats, it's been easier to fish and with construction projects on hold. the air has been cleaner. these people of the sea would like it to stay that way. and al-jazeera let's take you through some of the headlines now. u.s. president elect joe biden is set to reveal more of his cabinet within miles off to his transition to the white house. formally began the head of a government agency responsible for the process, acknowledged as the apparent when a complete how has more from the white house. there's also the important background checks that need to take place because many of these policy positions involve top secret security clearances. so that will be something that can also take place and

there will be the money to fund it. and we do know there has been a confirmation already from the department of defense that that transition has already begun in order to ensure that u.s. national security remains on track something. that was a grave concern to many of the top security officials in the united states. given the fact that donald trump was dragging his heels and essentially blocking this transition from taking place, they argued putting u.s. national security at risk. the international air transport association is predicting the industry is on track to lose more than $150000000000.00. that's after the number of passengers plummeted from 4 and a half 1000000000 in 2019 to fewer than 2000000000 this year. the theo paean government says to gray and regional forces have started to surrender. but to gray's leadership says they're fighting back and have destroyed an ethiopian military division, including a helicopter,

and 2 tanks. at least 7 people have died in 2 separate car bombings in northwestern syria. the 1st was in the bab in aleppo, province monitoring group say most of those killed were police officers. the 2nd happened in nearby are free. at least 14 people have been killed in twin explosions at the market in central afghanistan, the interior ministry says more than 40 others were injured in the blasts in bamiyan city. a posthumous appeal on behalf of the only person ever convicted of the lockerbie bombing has started in scotland. the family over the bastards and mcgregor, he is fighting to clear is name 8 years after his death. those are the headlines . the news continues here on inside story, so stay with us shaping

our digital future. china's president says he wants to work with other countries to build a shadow cyber space community. while your but the u.s. argue over privacy rights and taxation of virtual companies who will win the battle over the future of the incident. this is inside story. hello welcome to the program and its china has long been pushing for a greater role in global internet governance. now it says it wants to build a common cyberspace community with all the countries present. xi jinping says his

nation is ready to cooperate on a shed internet infrastructure. china strictly controls the internet and senses its content. it recently proposed regulations that could restrict the powers of tech companies and is being accused by the u.s. of using the internet to pose security threats. the chinese government denies such allegations. president xi laid out his ideas in a letter read out at the world internet conference hosted by china. china is ready to work with other countries to grasp the information revolution fostered, new driving forces for digital development, and open up new prospects for digital cooperation. efforts will be made to forge a new pattern of cybersecurity and a community of shared future in cyberspace to create an even better future for mankind. last month, the founder of chinese tech giant alibaba,, criticized the government plans to regulate the sector. now c.e.o.,

daniel jang says the draft rules a timely and necessary he told the internet conference supervision allows platform enterprises to not only develop well on their own, but also helps the sustainable and healthy development of the entire society and creates innovation. let's bring in our guests in beijing, we have a political analyst where devises the chinese government. joining us from washington, d.c. is jody westby chief executive of global cyber risk consultancy. and max eyes is a lecturer in computer network security at the university of central lancashire, and that's in preston in the united kingdom. welcome to each of you, jody. i'll start with you. actually if i may, china's government seems to think if you can harness the full potential of the internet for economic good while keeping a tight grip on what it wants you to see or not see online. and so far it seems that's right, doesn't it? and if you look at how china's economy is doing,

china's been able to do that within its own country by effectively, their game here is though it wants to expand that hour and it is part of the whole role, global norms and the internet, and change their bases of internet governance that is in place. now. do you think china can impose its model of how it regulates the internet on the rest of the world? is that what the rest of the world needs and wants? no, i disagree with jody on this one. what they're trying to do is, back in 2013, they started the site asar internet and he will wonder what it is. but as we see today with election interference, all sorts of problems with social media. i think countries are already moving in the direction of saying that they have to have some measure of control over it. it's not this free and open highway which is going to bring and like everybody,

it actually is bringing in a lot of conspiracy. there isn't, thanks like that, but there's no way that china can impose that. what they're saying is that there should be some sort of structure and system. and in essence to connect up these different storage units and regulate how they interact and how the digital comics court work. max china suggesting some sort of structure to how the internet is globally run is the chinese model, a woman that the rest of the world might be persuaded by? well, it is an interesting proposal. if you or other 2 guests have agreed that you know, in order to come back to phenomenal is like faking news or election interference on things like mr. destruction will be needed. however, and the, the chinese proposal. i'm not quite sure would that be actually accepted by every nation around the globe because striking the balance between restructuring and

combating these come back in these and ominous and you know, freedom of speech and you know, andrew to see and staying safe online. all these needs to be really considered very carefully before giving to this restructure. jody. china is the only major power that's come up with some sort of a suggestion. europea european union. the americans are fighting about taxation and privacy issues. china stepping into a void here, isn't it a void that needs filling? well, china and russia have been working very effectively, especially at the united nations level. china has been making some strides towards the goals that it, it wants to put in place. it uses the right terminology, it uses internet governance that uses protection of expression. bet that is what their term is and their definition is the part of the problem has been that the

united states has really not shown the leadership read the last decade that it should have been showing in multilateral for us to really be leading globally on cyber security, cyber crime and these issues. and it's opened the door for china and russia to play a more prominent role in the united nations and to align other countries in africa, asia or latin america to get them to come along with them. and so where we used to really control a big block of both boats or have people with the united states and its positions now that is splintered off. and so it puts, it puts the western countries and the democratic countries at a disadvantage. china is sort of seizing the initiative here, isn't it in seeing an opportunity to mold internet governance and into how it believes it should be, while the u.s. and europe squabble over other issues. well, that's an issue here. you can say as a country or somebody creates a vacuum and you know,

no one is supposed to go in there. the fact is, the digital economy is, you know, going ahead whether or not the u.s. interests that are not. china's already done a lot with that cyber currency. they're doing, you know, they're ahead on 5 g. in a lot of different areas. and the only thing that all trying to come up with was to somehow contain china has been stripped off product from getting too far ahead. i think that's where, but i think it's going to be a little bit different. he says he wants to compete. basically, you know, compete at the top end rather than at bottom. so i don't, you know, that this idea that somehow the west or if you're saying the u.s. should control, you know, the cyber offense here is as silly as saying china control is something that belongs to the world. each country has to decide what the balance it says, max, at what is the correct balance for that particular country, and it's not going to be well, one size fits all. and unfortunately,

sometimes that's what the u.s. is expecting. other countries to do they, i've said there's only $11.00 ideology, one kind of economics, one kind of internet that everybody should abide by. the fact is that's not going to work. max should the u.s. and the europeans be trying to come up with something similar to what china is offering or working with china on this. i mean, the u.s. and europe, by the way, all the only countries with a similar sort of democratic background is japan. india, what should those countries be doing? well, i think, you know, the invitation or the, you know, that, well, china has come a way that is, you know, from, from an economic point of view, at least we see that as a, as a positive step forward to bring nations to work together in order to find a solution when you know will, will guarantee what we call enter if we use

a santorum internet governance because these nations we are talking about you just mentioned now japan european union, the u.s. . they are all in the top, you know, powers in terms of cyber capabilities and intent and working with china is an act of will at some point to actually, you know, bring these nations together. you know, for us in academia, you know, bring these research communities. do you do more cooperations with chinese universities and academics to, you know, to come back to the, the rise of cyber attack, cyber crimes are all over the internet. so i think working together is the solution going forward. but as your guests were saying, you know, the balance, the model, the trust issues they need to be addressed before. you know, before we move forward in that direction. joe dear, is there a need to agree common digital rules? and if, as you say, the u.s. are sort of taken its eye off the ball here, what should it be doing in response to china's proposals?

well, the most important thing you should be doing is really actively engaging in the united nations. we can talk about countries talking among themselves and agreeing. but the fact is, the united nations is 192 countries. that's comprised of an international body that does set regulations for communications and standards. and that's where china has really been able to, to worm its way in and through the international telecommunications union, where it's held very high leadership positions. so the united states needs to get involved at the general assembly and the i.t. you and the standard setting bodies and the regulatory efforts far more than it needs to engage far more than it has. and to bring allies along the allies as well . you could say, with huawei were reluctant to side with the u.s. on banning wild ways, pikey technology. why? because they were afraid, donald trump would do a side deal and leave them hanging with whatever they come into and nationally,

with the united states that will change and be judged by we'll get, we'll get better alliance with our countries that are democratic institutions. and i think we won't have that sort of splintering it will, will, will start regaining some cohesiveness and position. however, that's willing to depend on whether the biden is ministration. all kinds of people in place in these institutions that can provide leadership locally. ok, nobody disputes that there are dark unpleasant corners of the internet and the should be some effort to try and do something about it. but isn't the sort of uninhibited exchange of views and ideas a dozen about lead to innovation and development assumes people are cathal about what they say online. you've stifle out, don't you? well, i think there's a difference between discussing the possibilities and saying, you know, the movie theater is on fire in a crowded packed house. you know,

there obviously has to be some limits. otherwise you're having with your hat now, which is kind of unmitigated disaster or where people are saying straight news. they think that they're entitled to their own facts opposed to it. but it to address what jody was saying. i strongly disagree calling, you know, china names and things like that and saying that the problem is that the allies didn't, you know, join the ring around the rosie and cheney shot is nonsense. the issue was, what were the factual basis you had countries independently through their own security entities saying look, there's no problem here. and to the extent there is a problem, we can change it and there was political pressure put on. so i don't have think that has anything to do with this idea of technical compliance or real dangers., this is simply a move by the u.s., thumbing through donald trump to contain some, a country china, which was getting ahead of. i mean, i think this kind of credible hubris that is shown here that only things that only

advance things should be developed. western nations and western nations should set all rules for the rest. these people that's racist. well ok ana, just before i let jodie come back in on this, let me at least say that isn't it? that the issue is that the way that china views how the internet should work is completely at odds with the way the liberal democracies of the world view, the internet. and the challenge of bringing the those 2 together is all in some out civil. i would imagine it's just a totally different way of thinking. yes it is. and you know, quite frankly, china's going to have to toughen up that skin account. i expect to be a world player and shut itself off. so it's going to have to be willing to open up like that, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be standards and that people shouldn't be working together. i would agree with bats. it's a question of bringing everyone to the table, not somebody sitting outside the ring, throwing in bombs because there are, they chose not to be involved. ok, joe, do you count?

obviously ignore all china. i'll let you come back. what i says, but obviously there needs to be some sort of common approach to the not to the future of the internet when there is. so it's, so there is the in the cyber crime convention that has been signed by 65 countries . so we have some progress being made in countering cybercrime, but you also have to consider cyber conflict. so right, china does have an advantage. these monopoly countries that authoritarian regimes to control all the communications, they have an advantage. if there is in a time, a cyber conflict or cyber war, they control all the communications. and then they, china's been trying to do its own internal internet. so that means that it would have to belive the when, when the united states or other countries might not have access to the internet if it was completely disrupted. and so in cyber conflict, there is a huge need for everyone to be on the same page in cyber crime. there has to be everyone on the same page or no one is secure. and so trying to fracture this out

to china is worldview versus how that, how the internet has developed. it's just not going to be productive for everyone that is connected in using this, this wonderful platform. ok, max, can i ask you about? so there was a report that was produced of u.s. council on foreign relations that came up the vi there, the sort of digital trade zone complete with a treaty organization and members who want to join this trade zone would have to abide by the treaty rules. and you know, there would be a mechanisms for sanctioning those members of that in the group with the rules is that, do we need something like that? i think something like that from an international point of view, an international effort to stand arise, the operations and how the internet is governed and all these things internationally and international effort. and i will agree with jody, you know, about, you know, the other nations, you know, working in, within the e.u. u.n.

framework to actually on hand. for example, to bring these, you know, treat you like this, for example, to an international level where there will be a governance because at the end of the day, i mean, you know, i didn't politician politics is not really my, my area really. but you know, from a technical point of view, i see this every day in the news where there is a bit of tension always between the big players between china and between the u.s. between, you know, the european nations. because of like i said before, these are very powerful nations in terms of their cyber capabilities and china and the u.s. are actually neck to neck in the latest endicott's, the national cyber bar index. so it's very hard to ignore the importance of china as a, as a international player. but at the same time, trying to bring these nations together into a treaty that is governed within the u.n.

framework that could be a 1st step. and as a set building trust among international partners will be a very good step in the right directions. because there's a lot of accusations, there's a lot of finger pointing in the news by security experts that you know, there's a lot of cyber attacks or hacking and the arce sponsored by states like china, like russia or even other other nations. and this is, this is a problematic because, you know, you can't really operate a treaty or start a collaboration is in the atmosphere where there is a lot of acetic is asian finger pointing say. so again, as i said, trust is going to be essential. ok. and i know what about a digital trade zone complete with the treaty and members who can be sanctioned if they don't or if they are wayward is other way forward? no, i didn't think so. i mean, there has to be some sort of collaboration on this, otherwise you're going to see

a breakdown in these internets and this kind of world shattering is being put forward by my colleague. you know, the u.s. spends over half of the $1.00 trillion dollars annually on defense, a large part of that goes to cyber security, espionage, counter-espionage, etc. i mean the issue here and i would agree with actually that it's about bringing people table for you know what it is, but you know, jody pointed out the u.s. has been absent. i don't think that's china's fault, or is it europe's fault? they both have to get, everybody has to get up the table and they have to put something together. as we've, seen with the recent signing of r.c. e.p. chinese not at 1st sitting down with whom, whom ever? even though they're at odds with australia and india, they still said look, the door is open. so this idea that somehow china is at 1st to sitting down and i'm multilateral shushan is incorrect. it's quite the other way. the us has been going

it alone and making it very difficult to have any kind of international framework. jodee. what about some sort of digital trade zone, or there was another idea. another group of think tanks came up with the idea of a technology alliance. no sort of formal treaty, but like the g 7 or i.m.f. would hold regular meetings, do e, is that something like that? well, we can talk about a digital trade because that all companies are i.t. companies. all countries are i.t. countries. everybody's digital. so where do you draw the line and say this is the day, you know, trains on purpose this every other industry that uses i.t. to support its operations. we've never ratified the law of the sea treaty thinking that you're going to get the countries around the world. there are about 230 countries and territories connected to the internet. you think we're going to get everybody to agree to a tree. it's just at a nonsense, let me add 10 years of talking and look how long it's taken. the european convention on cybercrime day. it has taken

a long time to get 65 countries to sign up to that. so we have a room, trade organization for trade issues. we have a united nations, we have a lot of like we need to use these institutions, these structures, and these legal frameworks that can be adapted cyber. we've adapted them for other technological progress. for example, for our navies when ships were available for air force when, when planes we now have space when we talked about dangerous land mines and other special things that were banned in the laws of armed conflict. so we have been able to take these structures that are proven and lasting, and i think it's far better to, for countries to work with frameworks and to accommodate the use of the internet in a global fashion. ok. i just wanted to ask you about this change in the approach that the chinese government has to his tech sector, which used to be fairly relaxed, but now the state of ministration, the market regulations proposing to prevent platforms from dominating the market.

why no, are they moving against those very powerful organizations in china's powerful companies rather? well, i think there is something very instructive jackpot. i mean, he decided a few days before the largest i.p.o. in history that he wanted to how to make fun of the chinese government. but there was an underlying part of that with china is how many forward with its digital economy with this? you know, it is digital you want things are going to change dramatically or is a feeling that jack ma was timing his i.p.o. prior to this because are going to be profound changes when you do have a digital currency that is actually working in a, in the you know, world of the world's largest trade entities with, you know, trade relations, number one, trade relations with $120.00, countries around the world. people. there's

a feeling that they didn't want jackpot. it cashed in on something that he couldn't deliver. also, you know, i think there's people are looking at what's happening with google and facebook, and a lot of these big monopolies, china created their own. obviously $0.10 an hour bar is huge. and there's a feeling that you don't want to concentrate that much power in these entities because they're now ruling not so much by innovation all the time, but a lot just by sheer market size. and that's one of the problems with the market economy. unfortunately, to lead towards monopolies if they are, in fact left unchecked. so china has the same problems us and also europe. they have to make sure that the sizing of these things through does not allow unfair cop competition to arise. a max of china taught of taking a look at microsoft and apple and amazon and alphabet, and seen the how they've dominated over there and decided that it's not the way they want to go should go. yeah, i think i think euro burnell,

i mean that i think china has, are they are seeing what's going on in, in europe, and the us about how these giant acts are dominating the market, named lest so, taxes, then they should. facebook has become of it giant, i mean, we saw mark zuckerberg in the congress giving evidence. i mean, if you think about it it's, it's supposed to be a social media network that is connecting be able to gather. but when we went from that, you know, nice idea about social connections and relationships to influencing elections and using that are from disparate fake news and all these things. and i think, you know, not just china, i think every country they don't want someone to be as giants. and, you know, it will spiral out of control and it will be very difficult to actually the

intervene when it's needed. because we, there's not just about the digital market or the trade is also about the source will impact that. what has this, you know, could embark on people's life on people's welfare. so it is, yeah, i think china is kind of like looking at this and saying, we don't want that to happen to us or up. ok folks. unfortunately, again, we're out of time with so much more to talk about. but thank you to, i'm not going to jody westby and to max iser and thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, al-jazeera dot com and for more debate, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a.j. inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. we are at a.j. inside story from me, bernard smith and the whole team here. setting

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