but the most common expression of grief just a little nudge in the direction of our website is the address. all the news we're covering. there are lots of comment. and the madness is to al-jazeera dot com. all right. just time for a quick check of the headlines here in algeria and ethiopia's. prime minister has announced a human and humanitarian corridor in the north, into the great region to help civilians caught in the fighting has also ordered a final offensive against the ground forces. tens of thousands of people have already been displaced. many of them afloat over the border into sudan, hiper morgan, and now where we are is the border. and it's where more than 15000 refugees have arrived over the past 3 weeks. all of them think that they're

escaping shelling that people being slaughtered left family members behind and came here for their safety. they fear that because of lack of telecommunication and because of lack of access to many parts of take, great, they can't confirm whether their relatives who they've left behind are still alive or not. but most of them say that when they came here, they had to wait for more than a week to be able to access aid and aid aid groups and international organizations . say that that's largely because this influx of refugees happened. all of us had a turkish court has handed down hundreds of life sentences for those accused of plotting to overthrow president 4 years ago, as one of the biggest cases related to the failed coup with 475 suspects. was argentina has begun 3 days of national mourning for one of its greatest ever football players. diego maradona's body is lying in state health to dying of a heart attack on wednesday. at least a 1000000 people are expected to pay their respects. germany is imposing strict

lockdown measures as it struggles to suppress a 2nd wave of corona. virus infections from december private gatherings will be restricted to 5 people increasing to 10. during christmas. the chancellor angela merkel has warned that white measures are likely to continue into january bars and restaurants are closed. schools and some shops remain open. police in paris are investigating allegations that a black music producer was physically attacked and racially abused by officers. the incident was recorded by c.c.t.v. inside the man's studio. he told reporters that police followed him in after seeing him outside without a face mask. 3 officers involved have been suspended. here today, the headlines here announcer got more news coming up right after inside story. after that,

so the death penalty be abolished worldwide. the u.s. allows for more than that it's executing inmates. as nearly 40 countries reject the latest u.n. resolution against the practice. so as capital punishment still favored in many places, this is a welcome to the program. i'm in iraq on the death penalty is undoubtedly one of the most controversial issues around the world. it's been abolished in much of the world. it's still carried out and at least $54.00 countries, including china and the united states. for decades, the u.s.

has used lethal injections takes to keep those convicted of certain crimes, but the justice department is now allowed more methods including firing squad and electrocution. the u.s. constitution, however, strictly bans what it describes as cruel and unusual punishment rights groups accuse the trumpet, ministration of rushing to execute 5 inmates before the president's term ends. in january. last week the u.s. was one of 39 countries that rejected a u.n. resolution for a moratorium on capital punishment, but with $120.00 votes in favor, the general assembly is expected to adult the measure next month, the u.n. secretary general has said the death penalty has no place in the 21st century. now honesty, international says more than 26600, people are known to be on death row around the world. it recorded at least 657 executions in 20 countries. last year. iran saudi arabia iraq, and egypt accounted for more than 86 percent of all capital punishment last year.

the us is ranked 6th of the total number of executions with $22.00. but rights groups say that china is the world's biggest executioner, with thousands believed to be killed every year. beijing doesn't release death penalty figures let's welcome our panel of guests all joining us on skype in melbourne. stephanie mcclellan, a senior manager, asia, and initiatives for human rights watch and tehran, hamad and professor of political science at tehran, university, and import rush, northern ireland, inwards author of surviving execution, a miscarriage of justice, and the fight to end the death penalty. a welcome to you all, i'd like to begin in tehran with a 100 or so if you actually support the death penalty. why do you think it makes such a terror? and well, i think the 1st issue here is we have to look at every country separately. i don't

think we can have a general rule for the entire globe regarding capital punishment. the latest data on iran, the world values survey which was actually conducted in 2020. so. 'd it's very recent, ask the iranians, what they thought of capital punishment would. it was on a scale of $1.00 to $10.00 with one to be never suitable, and 10 being always suitable over 80 percent of iranians actually chose a number of 5 or over. so a majority of iranians, including myself, support the capital punishment system, and i think it does act as a deterrent for potential violent crime perpetrators in i don't think just because you have certain laws in other countries, they have to be enforced in countries such as iraq just because something is popular doesn't mean it's right, it's still the death penalty that mistakes can be made and people can be executed

in error. and that's pretty final. i mean, how can you justify something that isn't a 100 percent effective? untrue, there can be errors, of course, and i mean, i'm not supporting any errors or actual innocent people getting killed. but at the same time, i think violent perpetrators of, of crimes such as serial killers. i think they have lego, they're right of life by killing other innocent people. and i think the families of these victims they deserve justice. so we have to also look at this from the anglo of people who are victims, as well as their families suffering with them. what do you think our guest in tehran says it's an effective deterrent, but it's also something that should be up to the individual country guy. i am strongly disagree with that assertion. it's. there's been repeated ad comments by the u.n. in this issue. rapid soul that the death penalty serves no deterrent. this is no

evidence to that effect whatsoever by any credible, independent, reputable source. i mean, it's a barbaric form of punishment, and it's absolutely nice to have this in any society. we're talking about fundamental human rights here, and i'd, regardless of what somebody has done or has been perceived to have done, they should never be sentenced to death. and that i prize that you in its entirety . but it is an effective deterrent, according to many of the regimes that carry out to keep societies in check as the ultimate punishment. is that no, simply without them look, it's an emotional topic. i understand that people want to really simple, will look fine, not solution to any issues such as that graphic crime. people just think will take away their lot. but it's not as simple as that. we know that in many countries that

support the death, you know, see this massive issues with in terms of a trial to process. will lol, independent judiciaries so, so i think it's a much more will you want some complex issue than this. and because the final result, it's ultimately the death of an individual. it should never be supported. it's, it's almost all rejected by countries. member states, the u.n. arms are in 20 member states, the un voted against the death penalty. last week. i mean these, these, this form of punishment is really on the way out in words and no the island imposed a lot of the justification for the u.k. to ban the death penalty is mistakes have been made and the past. and it's too final, is that something that you think should be universal? well, the serving have been miscarriages of justice. the idea of the possible way still

with the rights and wrongs of the death penalty is a theoretical issue all the way back to my school debating days. but i only became passionately opposed to it. when i dealt with 1st time, someone who was facing execution, i got a call, richard dawson, who was sentenced to death more than 20 years ago. and today it's still on death row. awaiting his execution 2015, he had 3 different execution dates. 2 of those were delayed because of legal appeals. the 3rd was not with the prison waiting for him to be executed. was called off at the last moment because they discovered that they had the wrong lethal injection drug to kill him, which was the only thing that saved his life since there are big no more executions in a place. because of my background comes from being suppressed or against it. i don't think it is a tyrant and all the stalker is particularly obscene of the usual, that the united states, which has very little in common with iran,

with north korea. and china should be on the same side when it comes to the well, let's bring in stephanie mathile and his stephanie, it is an interesting one because the u.s. has just announced new measures including quite extraordinary, this firing squad. which sounds like a throwback to, you know, revolutions and the post russian. well, but is why the u.s. doing this in as one of the big countries is a bad example? absolutely. the u.s. is setting a bad example by considering most, i mean, formal or don't punishment. we look to the us, if you know, is one of them, one of the latest when it comes to human rights. and at the line minutes between difficult to even that last look, i don't believe any form of execution is bearable whether its execution will start, whether it's public hanging, whether it's shops, gun,

shops at the back, whether it's a lethal injection. i mean, in the end there and look, it's really a plate deeply concerning and troubling that the us is considering such and such a barbaric punishment and tear on have you heard the arguments that from the northern and poor rushnell niland? i mean, are you sell, show that this is useful and a deterrent for a country like iraq? well, i don't think anyone supports punishing someone's that that is innocent and there should be checks and balances in place to ensure that you know, innocent people are not prosecuted. but i mean the same rationality can be used for any type of punishment. i mean, even life imprisonment a mistakes can be made. and nevertheless, i think the main issue at hand here is that when we're talking about global norms and global values, we have to 1st of all discuss how were these values decided in the 1st place. did

eastern countries or asian countries, or muslim countries where they actually participant to these kinds of discussions where the definition of what is human rights and what is barbaric or decided? i think there are a lot of power relations here at play where western countries are getting to impose their own values on countries such as iran. so i think we should, every country should get the option to had their own system based on their own culture and what their own people want. that's a bit disingenuous, is that because there was a part in the u.n. just a few days ago on iran voted to keep the death penalty you do have a cite and whether the death penalty as a country should be in your country or not. you have a say and like you said, iran and iran voted against what i meant was not a vote of the international system in the united nations. but actually how many

people in each country support a system? if a majority of iranians don't support the death penalty, then that would be a different story. but every poll in iran shows that a very large majority of iranians do support the death penalty. and i don't see how foreign countries get to impose their will on the will of the iranian people. so i don't, i don't see how that can work. i think it's going to cover an imposition if you have a vote and it but, but again, iran voted against it. so if, if there is a vote in the united nations say like, that's, that's assuming that $100.00 countries in the world vote against having the option of wearing the head job. would that mean that iran should abolish that just because other countries voted against the system? what i mean is each country separately within their own system, the will of the people should be implemented in this and even in the united states,

the latest you. gov poll shows that almost 2 thirds of americans support the death penalty. so if the, if the americans want the death penalty, i think the government should implemented it's a democracy and would say, and correspondent, what do you make of the well, i'm shaking my head during the course. not because i don't think that that opinion poll is right. 2nd callup poll, which is considered the gold standard if you like, for how are americans use the death penalty over the past 25 years. the figures in favor of the death penalty fall of from more than 80 percent to just over 50, percent. it is still a majority l.q., and i should say that penalty is his work while keeping on that the statute book when you will to ask questions such as would you replace it with life in prison without parole? then dufferin, the percentage that even further in a majority are against the death penalty. not we can argue as to whether the popularity of something is a reason for legislate. you know, i'm not, i would hope that moral standards carry some weight here. and certainly when i was

really i was writing my book back in 2016, it seems if the united states was moving towards the abolition of the death penalty if hillary clinton, i believe, had been elected president, then the balance of the supreme court's in the united states would probably have tilted in the liberals favor and of course we've seen number donald trump, how a guy who has a 60 conservative majority, if it is going that way under hillary clinton, i'm pretty sure that the death penalty if off the statute books and abolished already that would certainly be something that was likely to happen in the next few years because states, individual states are all moving in that direction. very few actually carry out the death penalty that well, just because they know that these controversial, but they know that it is ineffective. it hasn't proved to be a terrorist, and most of the law enforcement obese recognize that as well, that most crimes are carried out. moments of passion rather than necessarily plans . i'm there for the deterrent factor. doesn't really come into it there. i mean,

i think that most people, when they analyze the reasons for the death penalty, it comes time to feeling that it is the necessary for revenge or retribution on the house of victims. but victims are not helped when people are executed wrongly and 170 people have been exonerated, having been sentenced to death in the united states, their cases were times of grief. they were completely innocent. now, if the law had to be the last moment they would be dead in there, wouldn't be any opportunity to argue that case anymore. now they will say, some legal quarters that, well, that shows that the system works because those people were eventually exonerated. but how many of the more than 1500 people have been executed in the united states since launching 76 were innocent? most people think that a good, healthy percentage more than 10 percent of those were likely innocent people. let's bring in stephanie mcclellan head and open stephanie. so we have what we have, we're in a situation right now where some of the bigger countries and the result. how is iran, for example, the us, china have the death of us here,

which is allows smaller countries. they will, those bigger countries have the death penalty. so, you know, don't take a look at us, take a look at them. is that any pressure you compile on the big countries, the regional powers, to get rid of the death penalty, or is it, are you simply shouting into the void? now look, look, $120.00, countries voted against it. and last monday and we finally called the u.n. will like that voters at the general assembly plenary in december 39. countries did vote against it. they wanted to keep it down, you know, see, but we know that those countries, a lot of those countries of some of the most serious human rights violations in the world, china, iraq, i'm as yet now, north korea. i mean, these are countries with a reach its human rights records. and of course, any country that votes in favor of it is sending a terrible signal. sorry,

that votes against their resolution is sending a terrible signal to other countries that it's ok. and we as an organization, a really calling on the most strong countries that have voted, i mean them are tory and can find a halt on executions to apply russia,, whether that's trade or whether it's through negotiations at the u.n., but really raise their voice and call it out what it is, which is a very and inherently cruel practice and tear on how many mousavi isn't this the real cost to iran about the death penalty already you've been criticized for your human rights record. this is yet one more example, a very powerful example that you can be criticized for and yet you still say, well, it's popular in the country, so they're full, we should keep it. but it's yet another way of beating up iran in the public's i

mean, it's a very politicized matter. the reason iran is being criticized. i would say, i'm not saying every criticism, of course there are genuine criticisms as well and maybe valid criticisms as well. but the criticisms that you hear on u.s. media, a lot of it is politicized. and one measure of that is that a lot of the same issues were going on in iran during the time of the shah. and, you know, iran was actually supported and very few there were fair, if you denounce the nations of iran. listen,, here's the thing. when we're talking about voting in the u.n., it's really not their decision to decide. i mean, if, if say a 100 countries vote for california to become a separate country. does that give them to the right to vote on that? i don't think we have, there is a legitimate basis to impose the values of other countries on countries such as

iran, a minute, any or all of the execution numbers have decreased significantly coming to almost $250.00 per year. and this is even though that iran has almost 2000 homicides every year in iran, the family of the victim is actually given the option to forgive the perpetrator of the murder and in large numbers in the majority of cases that has actually happened . but there is always the option in the deterrent, that if you actually kill someone that there is a chance that you will be executed. and i think that something positive and point rush in words seems to be saying that actually it's a system that works for us in the u.s. where the victims' families don't get a say in whether the death of his should be taken or should be taken place or not, i mean, why is the, why is that are still on the books that you spent a lot of time covering. all of this can tell us well michael,

i book surviving execution because it does seem to survive despite all the blows it is being take it both from campaigners and even from victims who you would think would be in favor of the death penalty if they have seen their loved ones killed, you can understand the emotion involved the case and i absolutely understand that they might want to see that kind of retribution. but equally, there are people who don't want to see that. i met a man whose daughter was killed in the oklahoma bombing in which timothy mcveigh was ultimately executed by the federal government. he didn't want to see that he didn't think that it brought any comfort to him as a victim. and he actually became friendly with the father of the murderer, himself. bringing together the, the kind of the kind of colon bomb that they had both lost loved ones unjustly. at the united states is a slightly different case to many countries because they do full of the powers on the death penalty to individual states. and yes, the federal government occasionally does carry out that drill executions and donald

trump and bill bar, the u.s. attorney general are still carrying out executions, even though it's a lame duck administration. joe biden is set to take over in january. but even when joe biden becomes president, he himself will have no power other than when it comes to federal crimes to deal with death penalty issues. it is down to individual states. but to say it's only a matter of a handful of states that have such as texas and such as virginia who are still carry knives these, these executions. even though there are substantial peoples within that numbers of people within those states who approve it and want to carry on like execute. i think it sends a terrible example when the united states is trying to lecture other countries owner of human rights records, when it has such a napoleon record when it comes to the death penalty itself and executions were one point being carried out at such a rate. that they hardly merited coverage in the newspapers. and i was a washington correspondent in 2002, 2003. you would, you know,

quite frequently pick up a newspaper and discovered the inside pages. there would be an execution virginia that night. but they were being carried out at such a rate that nobody seemed to care anymore. thankfully the numbers of fallen significantly and fewer than 20 people a year are now executed. but a lot of people would say that's still far too many stuff to mclennan. one of the bigger problems you go when it comes to international agreements is one of enforcement. yes, you can vote for the moratorium on capital punishment. but if a country breaks that moratorium, even if they voted for it, there's not a huge amount you can do. yeah, cos every country and they like, you know, like what the individual saying about iraq. they are trying to do what they like, but it doesn't making that you off the hook people nationally. you still operate even a global economy, where you rely on relationships about a country. and if you continue to behave in a right disrespecting, matt,

it will be repercussions and look, if it's not simple, i guess, but do you value and value of human rights? that dignity and respect for law. these is a really poor and terrible way to go down. it's just not, it's not appropriate. having, it was so interesting. you talked a lot about international agreements and how they don't or a, a one size fits all for every country, but iran, when it comes to nuclear power. when it comes to the nonproliferation treaty, which you already signatory to. when you're being criticised for your nuclear weapons program, alleged nuclear weapons program or nuclear program, generally,, you say, well actually we signed up to the n.p.t., iran pakistan, india, north korea didn't. and they have nuclear weapons which are illegal site. you're quite happy to trot out an international agreement then, but when it comes to the death penalty, you're much more hands off and say,

well look, one size doesn't sail is a little hypocritical. well,, regarding the n.p.t., it's actually a voluntary agreement. so every country can decide for themselves whether they want to be part of the n.p.t. or north. so it's actually not really an agreement. if there is agreement, you yuron hides behind all trumpets rather than hiding. right, so so, so iran did sign up for the n.p.t. and based on that, iran is actually being monitored by the i.a.e.a. war than any country in the world. and nevertheless, that's something that iran decided on itself. it wasn't something that was imposed on iran. but when we're talking about something that is about the death penalty, we have to take into consideration the cultural and religious distinctiveness of other countries. i mean, just because the west is the more powerful side in the globe right now, they shouldn't be able to impose their own values on other countries. and we have

to remember that a lot of the time, these sort of human rights issues are politicized this. well so, so they're actually sometimes used as a political tool to pressure other countries because of other reasons, not, right? not necessarily because of human rights issues. our thank all our guests assessment . mclellan, how that was saudi and inwards, and thank you too for whatever you can see the program again, any time by this single website out, is there a dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a.j. inside story. and you can also join the conversation on twitter. we are at a tech inside story from am on how an entire team and out and out

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