what is this attachment to what will be the consequence on the function of these 2? this will allow us to move even faster for drug discovery, many diseases. because now we can know how these look like, what all the shades in matter of days. you have to remember that there are so many diseases that we quoted you couldn't win the war against them because we didn't have an insight on how the disease through he in the us looked like to be able to find the drug against them. this is al jazeera, these are the headlines this hour. u.s. drug may come. a donor is seeking approval from the american and european regulators for emergency use of its coronavirus vaccine. the u.s. health secretary says if everything goes to plan federal approval for vaccines

could be granted in the coming weeks. with pfizer, we have the f.d.a. announced an advisory committee for december the 10th. and if everything is on track, everything proves out what, what it appears to be. we could be looking at approval within days after that. madonna's basically one week behind that, and general perna his from operation work speed that will ship within 24 hours of f.d.a. authorization. so we could be seeing both of these vaccines out and getting into people's arms before christmas. still in the u.s. and the battleground states of arizona and wisconsin have become the latest to certify joe biden's election victories campaign. and the republican party had challenge the arizona results in court. and donald trump is expected to continue appealing against the results. u.s. secretary state prime minister to end the fighting in the north and to gray region

meant told ethiopia's parliament that federal forces are in full control of the regional capital. mecca lay. the people's liberation front says the fighting is ongoing. iran's top nuclear scientist has been laid to rest in teheran, who was assassinated on friday. iran's leaders are blaming israel for the killing. they have vowed to retaliate. turkey is timing its coronavirus restrictions after a record number of deaths for the 8th consecutive day. 188 people have died in the last 24 hours and so full lock downs will be imposed at the weekend. and curfews on weekdays. a deforestation in brazil's amazon region has surged to a 12 year high. the area destroyed has grown sharply since president jibril sonora came to power there. back with the headlines on al-jazeera, the stream effects talked about. is there a risk, realistically, how can you deal with institutionalized corruption? and in this country, we listen. if this breaks up

a conflict between pakistan and india, this has implications for the rest of the world. we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter on al-jazeera rapidly and walk into the stream. all of the school we are tombstones are running discussions that he needs to find like you have us and out on my community today having that here back on like my laptop. this is what you often ask. is there a story or if she think we should cover ski down his and you can see clovis run dunalley and claim. he says that in marksman of government surveillance on its citizens, the same rhetoric and euphemism used in war on terror to justify and president opposed data gathering of his citizens is being developed around pivot 19 to track people's movements. so we want to discuss in national today is being personally

safe and healthy worth giving up your personal data. do you have to do that? if your new chief jumping the comments that has that your opinions and your takes your experiences, but you have to include them. so you too can be in the street. let me introduce you to guess who introduced themselves to you. got to run it. welcome to the string, tell everybody who you. thank you for having me on riley bill and i'm a physician at harvard medical school and normally served as an advisor to the president of guinea on message and abel. it's good to have you in the mix. hello. who welcome to the story. thank you for having me. i'm robin martin. i'm a partner with trial eco, i had its technology practice and most recently i helped the indian government, whether it's our oga, save the contact tracing up, looking for to hearing about that. and irene, welcome to the skin, tell of what i am a senior researcher for the citizen lab. we are

a cybersecurity and human rights research lab based at the university of toronto in trying to canada. great to have you all of the you cast. i'm going to start with and how does your online show called start here. they looked. 'd at surveillance during this era of a global pandemic, and wondered how far east see far in terms of invasion of privacy. so i'm going to hand over to saundra if our men and these kids really didn't look easy out, to help us track of it. 19. quantify covert 19, there's an app for that crucial recognition g.p.s. glue to make it easy. cameras and drones, even honest to use is a kind of mortar should be banned. surveillance is really spreading everywhere. it's all about tracking people to contain the spread. but some want to know who's policing the police doctrina as adults in terms of

technology and what's possible, what if you see what is exciting for yes, from my standpoint, looking at it from the public health response is missing. when we talk about contact tracing, the role for technology could be very big in that. now i'll preface by just saying that privacy is a 1st and foremost consideration and the technology should not be used unless that can be assured. but from a standpoint of trying to contact trace, when people are moving around again as, as countries and as places start reopening, if somebody is found to be positive, it becomes very difficult to figure out who exactly was around them and who may have been exposed. you could be riding on a train with some, but with people you're never going to know their names. you're never going to be able to figure out who they were. and that's where these apps that can at least detect whose phone has been close to that person. can be very useful for finding the contacts and then the 2nd piece of that is finding them quickly right now by

interviewing people. it takes 2 or 3 days, sometimes to track people down. but with apps, you can conceivably instantaneously notify somebody, and that speed of identifying the contact is critical. and i said to making the case for why we need them, i'm just wondering who you want king on and not right now. what the apps that are out there that you seem to maybe thing filmed you intend to what is possible? yes. so look, the app that we're working on is a plain manila contact tracing app. but there are so many other apps, you know, you've got joe fencing apps that will actually put you within a electronic box. and the moment you straight out of that box, an alarm is going to go off. you know, you've got facial recognition technology as we saw in that video just now that can identify you just based on the photograph. so if you're someone who's supposed to be important in they will use facial recognition to identify you and your best as a whole. there's a whole range of ways of technologies that are that much. so i think the point is

that whenever you stick knowledge e, you are making a trade off. and sometimes when the situation is dire, the tradeoffs that you have to make are or are more extreme. and the most important thing is, once that situation asas, you've got to scale it back and i think that's the critical thing, nd i knowing what is he seeing what a you seeing out there, that you can actually describe how it actually works and a person's idea because if we're being asked to put an apple halftone and this is going to help us realize if we've been in contact with somebody has got to think 900. if we have to be 19 and then we're in contact with someone. can you explain in a very accessible way, how much might work? yes. so i think there are a lot of concerns with contact tracing apps. so 1st of all it's not clear whether

using kind of tracing apps would be a lot more effective than manual contact tracing. so manual contact tracing involves interviewing people. and so the contact tracers are both of you know, our detectives, but they're also therapist and they're also social workers straight. so they're able to get details as to where the person who has been, particularly during the time when they were contagious with conduct tracing apps or are a host of issues to related to privacy, specifically concerns regarding surveillance. and it's not clear if the method behind contact tracing apps would be a lot more productive than the manual contact racer that i mentioned previously. and so some of this concerns include, for instance, you know, vulnerabilities for guarding the potential of hacking of technologies like bluetooth or where a contact logs are being stored. our very invasive

in terms of the requirements to install the app or use the app. so for instance, i've seen apps where it requires access to your camera to take photos and videos. it requires access to your memory card. so it's not clear that these functionalities are required to cheer on the out and therefore their risk infringing on users' privacy. let me share something of you, which was a very easy sort of a graphic so that you can see how one system may blanch this is pretty 1st contact tracing. so you'll phone it gives out random messages every few minutes. and then when you see somebody else, thanks to somebody else, you phones as long as your pay from the same app will exchange those messages. both of the phones, remember what was said in heard in the past few days, which is believed to be the time in which you can actually get covert 900 sometimes . and then if alan carried to here gets covered 19, she sent

a message or hospital has a phone and let everybody else know who was in contact with her. and also was on the app. and then you then can either south quarantine, go to your doctor, etc, etc. that's a very basic walk through of how apps or how an app may well work. i want to bring in dr. mike, why i'm here. i know you all know him from the don h. o. briefings, and he, he had a briefing last week and dr. mike ryder explained why, man, your testing is not enough. the manual interviews are not enough. we need to use technology curious. but of doing quarantine for contacts, we have seen time and time again in countries that have contained this wireless and brought under control without the need for massive lockdowns have done it through the application of principles. human rights, traditional books. sometimes quite aggressive. public health surveillance.

does you any that does seem to be some tension between doctors thinking if this is going to help me and people who are very concerned about privacy in technology, do you think this is a time to even be worrying about this? i think definitely we need to take privacy to consideration and you know, i fact agree with everything there are going to set. i think 1st and foremost, privacy has to be a short. i'm not a technologist so i don't know all of the complexities that go into that. certainly that needs to be short, 1st and foremost. secondly, i would say we also need to, we need to build this on top of a system of manual contact tracing. so i'm not saying it's an either or equation. i think a lot of the discussion around this as unfortunately, been either or i think we need to have strong manual contact tracing systems in place. now the advantage that the apps can provide on top of that, especially if it's done in a way that secure, like we're saying it needs to be that way, then it can make it actually accelerate no permit, which are manual traces can do. and that the 2 parameters that it really allows you

that i think dr. ryan is referring to is one is comprehensiveness of identifying fully, all the people who are real contacts. like i said, especially when things start reopening for what now, in many countries where things are locked down, the people around you in your house or your are your contacts. people are not really moving around, they're not going to work. they're not going to public places. when that changes, it's going to become very difficult to identify who always around somebody could have been exposed number one and then number 2. the other thing that and dr. ryan might be referring to is speed. so the challenge with covert in particular is that people become infectious 2 days on average before they have any symptoms and are most infectious actually the 1st day they have symptoms according to the most recent data that we have. and so the challenge becomes if i become infected and i get symptoms, and i get diagnosed at a hospital, if it's taking longer than a day or 2 days to identify my contacts, dave probably already transmitted on to others. and so does the speed becomes

critical because if you identify the context too late, transmission will have already happened. i want to put some questions jean from each of shine your sense the after because it 19 these stop i know you're working with in 0. now, if you can a plain vanilla tracking app, does this have a nice time that goes beyond kind of a team? is it a long term apple, or is it just for show a term? so the app very clearly says that this is an app for over $1000.00. and in the app there's no clear sunset clause, but the government has just released a the other sharing protocol which has a 6 month sunset clause. and it essentially says that in 6 months will review it, but unless the review says something differently, we're going to shut this down in 6 months. so i think it's really important to actually have that sort of a sunset on the use of these apps if it,

at the very least, gives people some assurance that it's not going to be used for long term surveillance. i'm looking here at the apple. apple has its own twitter feed and disliking here at the at right now, it kind of hinted in your we had to see it with mitch and you're obviously very concerned about privacy for us. did you know a plan sign up? every user is assigned to the needs of randomized anonymous device id, all communications between 2 devices, between device and service done each easing device. no person's mission is to any communication. so you already through a sensing that people are going to be quite concerned about this or who support me know? absolutely. well, well, you know, in normal circumstances you wouldn't want an app that speaking of your every movement and figure out who you met, grant them strangers, you've met where you, what went through walk. and so if that in the app is doing that, because we're in a pandemic,

we've got to be very sure that whatever data we have to take on the circumstances, we take it in a privacy 1st way. so, you know, we've got this device id, so it's a random number and there's no personal information that's, that's exchanged. and by default, all the information that it's collected remains on the form. it's only pulled up if you turn positive and we've got a rigorous data deletion protocol. so every 30 days, the data that's on your phone that's wiped out, you know, dr. dillon said that you don't that beyond 40 days, and we've just got another 40 made before, but every 30 days that, that they don't know for gets to eat it. let me bring in our thoughts can he's the executive director of the surveillance technology oversight project. he has some very deep concerns at despite what he said, rahul about these apps being on people's past no devices. so listen to, i'm deeply worried that governments are rushing to deploy unproven and invasive forms of surveillance technology and our rush to come back over in 1000. but

a lot of the systems war actually work, though, divert energy for a manual contact tracing. the only approach that does have purifier evidence that's affective in combating the virus. but worse than that will be laying a new framework for surveillance that will impact us for generations to come. a system that can potentially be used by law enforcement by immigration enforcement, and by every other facet of government, then we have seems loss of concerns about privacy online. for instance, elizabeth rainey says, who owns the data that this is a new chief right now. thanks. elizabeth, this who owns the data, these apps collect how easy, easy is it for governments hold on to that data beyond the coffee quarantines? i mean, do you have any stories that are actually sort of stories that a warning us about the dangers of apps and how that $1000.00 tracking? yes, so there's a story coming out of in which the government has proposed a contact tracing app that will retain the data i think up to 10 years. so it could

potentially be, you know, well after the kind of makes us over. and if i lay i am, i would like to follow up on the concerns regarding our yes up to or just see contact tracing app that is being used in india. so to my understanding the, it's not just for contact tracing, but it's at all in one app. so users are given color coded, showing infection risk. it gives access to tell a medicine pharmacy and diagnosed diagnostic services. so the concern is that the more services or functionality there are that are offered in the app, it could mean that more data is being collected. and also i think we should be concerned when these apps are being deployed in jurisdictions where there are no data privacy laws. so in india, for instance, at the moment there is no national privacy and also to mitigate trust issues and you know, i, there was a survey recently that was conducted a mom, i think 4500 americans that found a 50 percent. we're not install apps

a little trust. so obviously issues of trust is very important to, to address. and this is where sunset clauses are an expiry date on when the apple view is very important as you, enron has pointed out and also to make sure that the out is open source. and this means that the code and methods behind the apps and the independently verify rules . you want to pick up on some of that criticism of the way the technology to help cover 1000 tracking shah. so look, i never hinted that the app was only contact racing. i said it as a militant expressing it does 3 things. actually the 1st is it provides communication and it provides access to what we call the means. features look, if this is a desperate time we've been in a lockdown for almost 2 months. there are, you know, people have mental health issues in to get in touch with doctors. there is a feature to get access to tele medicine,

but that telemedicine is completely outside the app. it's a link that takes you to a different place. the app does contact racing. it does provide you with the green, yellow, or orange badge, which essentially is the feature of our contact, racing. and it does a 3rd thing which we haven't mentioned, which i think is extremely important. and that is what we call some drama mapping. it picks up people symptoms and then it picks up completely anonymous signals of people signal of people's illnesses. and if it can identify a heat map of disease clusters that are developing, it has the ability to actually identify clusters are disease even before it actually happens. and the data is showing that are obviously there has identified 130 spots clusters between 3 and in days earlier than the medical officers on the ground found it. and of course, you can imagine that that can be tremendously useful by getting, you know,

medical resources down to the ground before it actually spreads to much in the community. so yeah, i mean, it does least 3 things. but it's in the context in which it's been designed them and it's the data showing that it is successful. right now i have, i have said that there are privacy provisions built in and i think those privacy provisions address the safeguards, even though as, as irene says, we don't have a privacy law. i mean, we don't have a procedure law. we have to build the app. how do we do it in the most privacy preserving way? i mentioned the 3 things that we've done, which are built into the design of the aft, which i think will, will address those concerns. even though we don't have a privacy. ok. oh my goodness, there are so many concerns online right now. 1st of all, let me start off with with this doctor. i know i want to put this to you, which are a polls done in the u.s. in canada, in the u.k. . how many people would actually download a coronavirus contract tracing app?

and not that many people were happy about doing it. what would you say to them dr. rani? well, i think the issue is that up front, we need to figure out some of these questions that irene and brothel are pointing to. how can we do this in a privacy preserving way? and i think that concern has to be figured out, and i don't think that's in this in the u.s. context. been clearly figured out. and once it's figured out, it also has to be then publicized and promoted to, to the public in a way that they can understand. as irene reporting out the code behind all of this so that we can really know what goes into it. so people can garner that trust in the app. so i think, you know, none of these things happen from day one and, you know, go to scale, but i think we need to figure out some of those questions. 1st and foremost, like i said to him, we can't do that then was to be pushing the app. we should do it when we can actually do it in a way that's safe and that preserves privacy and then secondly, people can trust. so, you know, i see those numbers and i think if we figure out solutions to some of these

questions in a way that we can then promoted to the public and people see it and try it and, and understand the value of it. i think you can see those numbers grow, but i think we're still at an early point in this. i think, you know right now the focus really should be getting the manual tracing systems upon which this type of app technology could really work well in place 1st. secondly, i think as we start building out these apps to me, it's not something that should go to scale right away. i think we need to actually try it out, work out the kinks, understand what the falls are, especially around some these questions and concerns that people have. i think we do it in a staged manner that doesn't have to be over years. that can be in weeks to months . i think we can do this in a way where it actually works. i know you also do it in a way that builds up the trust that people will need for it to actually go to scale in a way that's affected. you not just as reading, put in, let me see something that's just happened in qatar to turn to now we'll have a man to treat tracking app. and this is who he is from the system for a minister, the spokes person. this is the app. i think that it's quite similar in china as

well, where you actually use code that is going to tap for a couple of things. this is one of my child leaks peter davi, and he's shown here at what it looks like. so he's already got his coat, a potty, you need this code in order to go outdoors. and then the pen missions. this is just in china, the missions that you need to give location, your phone, your storage, your disable, your screen goes on and on and on. irene, are you worried that apps like this that say you need this to say how be we need to do this to fly covert 19 and i, you can see this is already happening that people asked so many questions, but it's already happening around you out. yes, absolutely, i mean watching it as seeing as a permissions are required is already given me and let along. if i have to personally download it. i mean, i think there are a number of organizations out there that have given recommendations on the best

practices of conduct tracing apps. and number one on those lists are typically that be voluntary that people should not be forced to download the app. right, and buy more simply bought it. so again, it would undermine trust because naturally people would be suspicious like why or why do i have it all or who has arguments to this? might it have this or, i mean you, you make a good point only just because jack, who she sees on you tube right now, what you and he says, what if we refuse to download the app? what then exactly. and that is definitely a concern, especially in jurisdictions where, you know, there are known to have very repressive governments. if we think of the situation in the philippines where president, the territory has issued a shoot to kill order for people who violate lockdown measures. and if you have magical contact, transit, you know, location tracking all implemented along the strip to kill. or there may be, you know, facial recognition. i mean,

the amounts of human rights violations that could happen as a result. unimaginable. and certainly once a war situation where we have a human rights crisis that are says to me on the health crisis, i want to just before we end here is to bring in an attraction of doctors who see how helpful technology can be. and they definitely pro technology helping because it 19 trucking have a listen to that. it's digital tools and technology could be really useful in the response to prove it. 19, we're looking at using automatic s.m.s. questionnaires in parts of west and central africa where people use s.m.s. quite frequently. in responding to these questionnaires and explain what symptoms they have were hoping to identify people with signs of over 1000 much at a much earlier stage. we see in, for example, in the early temperature tracking devices used in front of hospitals and some public stores where people who wore are exhibiting some symptoms probably from

cornell for a slight fever or introduced popular places is the data is available to all of us. think about how it will empower those lower income workers, health care workers that perhaps need to ride public transportation to get to work so much still to debate and discuss. irene, thank you for being in at this question. thank you for being on the stream. our who and how to run it as well. then leave you back here, my laptop with the code, the tracking tracker from mit. they're asking for your help to help track other track as around the als call if you're on my laptop. and so what you

frank assessments, you've got colleagues on the ground in the canaries. what is the situation? there's only one doctor and one nurse or $1.00 to $200.00,

people informed opinions how big does foreign policy they get in the early stages of a bind of this regime. he comes into office with a huge amount of foreign policy experience. in-depth analysis of the dates, global headlines. how will a place like it live, get the back seat when there's no money and all the rest of rich countries are fighting for an inside story on al-jazeera. we've never had a president who has literally for 4 or 5 years repeatedly attacked our democracy. you know, lose your letter to everything that you. i don't have a narrative. i had a question. you're hitting there where people can get treated. and does he even further join me, richelle carey on up front as my guests from around the world take the hot seat and we debate the week's top stories in pressing issues here on al-jazeera. a lot of the stories that we cover all highly complex, so it's very important that we make them as understandable as we can do as many people as possible no matter how much they know about

a given crisis or issue of the books of subsided, the spell of the day is over as al-jazeera correspondent status will be strived to do. 'd american drug company seeks emergency approval for its coronavirus vaccine in the u.s. and europe raising hopes of 2 possible vaccines before christmas. hello, i'm come out. santa maria here in doha with the world news from al-jazeera, wisconsin and arizona have certified joe biden's victory. as the president elect picks a diverse economic team with the woman at the helm for the 1st time in a quarter of a 1000000000, people worldwide will need a.