78. classic hits which became the anthem of the whole football club and i. recorded it in tribute to. the national health service. the top story this hour in an order recording leads to the public u.s. president on trump pressured georgia's top election official to overturn the election result he asked them to quote find more votes during that hour long conversation the people of your you're angry at the people of the country are angry and there's nothing wrong with saying that you know. 2 2 that you've recalculated

well mr president determines that you have is the data you have is wrong you know what they did and you're not reporting it that's it you know that's a criminal that's a criminal offense and you know you can't let that happen so love me all i want to do is as i use one of. 11780 loans which is one more that we have because we won the state meanwhile 10 former u.s. defense secretaries of warned against the use solve the military in an election dispute in an open letter they wrote such a move would push the united states into dangerous territory last month it was reported donald trump had a discussion with his advisors floating the idea of using the military to restage the election in battleground states. on to other news the 1st dose of the oxford astra zeneca coronavirus vaccine will be administered in the u.k.

in the next hour british health officials say around $530000.00 doses of the new vaccine are being made available on monday after the country's health regulates regulator made it the 2nd coded $900.00 treatment to be approved after. japan's prime minister is considering declaring a state of emergency in tokyo following a rise in cope with 19 infections the country reported 4 and a half 1000 new cases on december 31st more than half of them in tokyo and brazil's health regulators agreed to import 2000000 doses of the oxford astra zeneca vaccine even though it hasn't yet approved the shop for use only 200000 brazilians have died from curve at 19 and they have been more than 7000000 recorded in fiction so you are up to date with the headlines on al-jazeera the latest edition of inside story is next a runoff that will determine if democrats take control of both chambers of congress has no candidate receives a majority. is getting ready for

a historic challenge in the senate majority. joining the special coverage of the georgia senate runoff. facebook and apple at loggerheads and it's all about privacy but no way is this fight going to stay private apple says it's changing its software to protect users facebook use little home small businesses whose right this is inside story. hello and welcome to the program i'm peter dalby today it's not david versus goliath it's goliath versus goliath it's being sold as a fight for small businesses and consumer privacy your privacy in reality it is 2

of the world's richest companies going head to head in a very public argument one which affects both their bottom lines yup it's all about profits in one corner apple not only the most dominant company in tech worldwide but the highest valued business anywhere on the planet it's devices are in the hands of more than 1000000000 people in the other corner facebook its social media platform is used around the globe by close to 3000000000 people that reach gives it an extremely commanding hold on online advertising and that's the problem because apple wants to change the way privacy is handled on its devices in the coming few months users will have to opt in to allow apps like facebook to gather data that data is essential to how facebook finds the right audience for its ads it's a move which could single handedly have the revenue made via those adverts the facebook is calling it an attack on small businesses and says the millions of companies that use its advertising tools will be unable to reach new audiences all

that led to this ad a full page spread in 3 major u.s. papers facebook says it's standing up for the little guy so does apple. ok let's bring in the panel from new york we have jim anderson he's the c.e.o. of social flow a company that helps media organizations distribute its social content online in berlin we have joined a bryson professor of technology and ethics at the hershey school of governance and here and oh how we have mark owen jones a professor who specializes in social media and the digital humanities been highly for university welcome to you all jim anderson in new york i come to you 1st so apple's going to give us you me everyone else around the world 1000000000 of us more privacy what's the problem. well there's no problem with that and apple definitely has a strong hand here when you go to consumers you say would you like more previously

most of them are going to say yes i saw one statistic saying 3 out of 4 people would say yes and don't track me i think that's actually low i think it's probably more like 9 out of 10 people the problem is what facebook is trying to say is wow you know that that's really going to impact not just facebook it's going to impact the small businesses who are the advertisers on facebook and they have 10 to 12000000 small business advertisers and that's really facebook's message is what you think is going to protect your privacy and it will and maybe harm facebook and it will is also going to harm those small businesses who reach customers by advertising on facebook well co-insurance here in doha but the reality is that the people that run these these massive 4 global tech companies google amazon apple and facebook they do collect and a stronger shing amount of data every time we hit click on something yeah absolutely i mean i think it has been said these privacy changes by apple are going to be welcome there's a certain irony here to what facebook at doing because it's because of recent

scandals in the past few years for example cambridge analytics that where it's come from light of how much data being collected by these companies and how it might be misused that's actually raised people's awareness of privacy issues so the fact that facebook now deciding apple and its privacy option is a tad ironic that facebook in a way a victim of their own success in this regard jonah brosnan in berlin is full kind of in one sense or at one level preaching to the converted there was a study in 2018 done by pew in america the pew research group the vast majority of us don't like the feeling that we are in effect being stalked by which have a website we go to. yeah no i think absolutely apple apple has a stronger hand now i mean it has 2 trillion market cap and so it's decided to play the public this direction it is its brand and i've heard also from nato that they

have found that people trust for their cyber security. so it's really interesting to me is a facebook is trying to run interference against the governance at the same time claiming that it's in favor of governance and regulation but trying very hard to convince people for example that consumers want to see more targeted advertisements or in this case that they're more concerned about the small and medium enterprises which of course the european commission believes is extremely important part of the european economy and ecosystem so that they're trying to claim that those are the people that will benefit or be harmed as well i suppose there are some some proportion of companies that will be as well as safeguards political campaigns and things like that ok 2 and a can i just ask you to put on your ethics professors head for

a 2nd is the idea of privacy in shrine or code to fight any place as a human right. oh well yeah that's a great question. which means i'm not entirely sure of the answer that i said no that's from the fundamental rights through the european union. the united nations but let the european union has to say over the 2 t.r. is if you have the capacity to know about the behavior of the citizens of the e.u. then you might be manipulating the citizens of the e.u. and so they are protecting the rights of us who are resident here and as just like they would protect our physical bodies so basically information about you is a part of your person and so by that definition you know i don't i'm not sure if that's been global excepted or if there was a good standard out of human rights law but i do know that in the european union

it's considered that it is a part of your person it is literally a part of your person your data about you jim in new york potentially what might this do to facebook i mean i was stunned a couple of hours ago when i found out facebook makes 98.5 percent of its money purely and only from happy advertisers. yeah you just nailed it i mean if facebook is effectively 100 percent advertising revenue and this will be a significant harm now i will say you what you'll see facebook do is they will move much more rapidly i suspect into e-commerce and making money and diversifying their revenue streams you know and other ways other than simply advertising so it will certainly hurt them at the very worst it will slow their growth potentially it will actually cause their revenue to decline so i think that's a that's a really significant concern but let's go back out joanna said a really interesting thing about advertising and manipulation if you believe that advertising is manipulation which in some regards it is then you're going to

definitely believe that privacy is more of a right and that advertisers don't have necessarily the right to manipulate you without your consent if you believe that advertising is a question of just surfacing things that are relevant don't surface me advertisements for women's shoes because i don't buy women's shoes it's just sort of common sense to say giving me advertisement for men's shoes is more likely to be effective it's a better use of money and it's more relevant to me that is an undeniably self interested perspective say from facebook or somebody who makes their revenue from advertising but it also from a from just a general comment since perspective makes a lot more sense to users as well monk here in doha sting with the idea of the toys seeing as manipulation in your specialty particularly in this region where you and i live is disinflation in this region is there a corollary flip between manipulation and decision from ation that we can identify attack through the prism of privacy and advertising. i think there's

a certain element to this i think what we have to be very wary of as time progresses is how certain actors whether their state that is a private actors will creasing the use manipulate the techniques hidden within advertising so we've already seen for example and it's easy things like journalists to try and trick. news websites into publishing passant that my concern is that social media companies are going to be using. these actors against using social media companies and platforms such as facebook to actually and it's yet censor issues political campaigns we are seeing evidence of that happen already and i think this is a huge problem i think that issues about transparency about who pays the cent and that's when it comes to facebook and i think in this regulatory environment and this is something we have to bear in mind as well is that within the middle east facebook can do really as as they want so there's an issue here jurisdiction about

advertising and whether it's political or otherwise that we need to pay attention to we're not just talking about northern europe in the u.s. here join a committee about something you were talking about a couple minutes ago when you were talking about the ecosystem when apple does this there is a distinct sense that apple will just press the button it will go live on facebook has to deal with it but does apple also have to change its ecosystem because they make an astonishing amount of money of their development companies the figure is compelling because if an app developing company makes less than $1000000.00 of a turnover per year they pay 15 percent to apple if they make a turnover of more than a $1000000.00 a year that figure doubles and 30 percent of that goes to apple as pure profit for them. yeah well i think i think you have to remember that there's something really

really weird going on here i mean you know the whole thing i can trust says it's that in war there is like one of the v.r. companies that facebook bought that was worth more than the entire national basketball association and in the america it was like 14 guidance and there and got a product to market so the amount of money we're talking about both may seem like a really high motivation but don't forget the regulators are coming after these people and maybe they stay decided that rather than actually pay tax which i don't know why they're fighting so hard not to pay taxes they'd rather throw some money under the bus and somehow keep some bubble of liberty i feel like it's some kind of a weird battle for power between people that have too much time on their hands you know. but i you know if i was hoping when facebook was found guilty for some of the . fraud that led to bribes it that they would lose like 90 percent of their market cap and had they done that they would still have been

a huge company and they still could have done a lot of great programming and can really call for audits you just can't conceive how much money has gone to these companies in recent years pardon me for interrupting you there john and jim anderson in new york one gets the distinct feeling that mark zuckerberg has kind of harsh spat the dummy on this one already but realistically what else can facebook do that's going to have to write the way from see what happens. why i think you're seeing facebook do exactly what they can which is a p.r. campaign right there taking out newspaper advertisements and otherwise trying to get that message out about small businesses will be impacted i think it's a tough hand for them to play i mean again as we've been discussing it's really hard to be perceived or in reality be against privacy because most people want that so i think they're going to do their best to get that message out and then like you said you know apple just gets to flip the switch and facebook has to deal with that i think that's probably the next phase of facebook's messaging will be why is apple the one that gets to flip the switch and are we ok with apple being able to decide

right now you're ok with them flipping that switch and saying privacy is important and we have to deal with it what about next time apple wants to flip that switch and maybe they want to make more money they want to change that 15 or 30 percent to some other number or they want to put some other you know sort of requirement in place this maybe not so popular i suspect you'll see facebook and others start to talk about that as well because apple shouldn't necessarily be the gatekeeper to you all of these decisions either mark or does this tell us of a pull perceive the customers facebook perceive the uses i mean to me it seems it's almost as if apple sees a couple of cardboard cut outs at apple central wherever the based and they see a couple of a man or woman with one device in their hand and they perceive that as a very personal relationship between the device and the individual whereas facebook seems to view their client bases you know a very big percentage of 7000000000 people around the world and those people are just widgets part of

a delivery system the system delivering profits to facebook. yeah i mean i think it's hard to be sympathetic in many ways to either of these companies i think of facebook to have a point because that software is obviously used by an incredibly large number of people then getting so is apples to apples apple is you could argue is more an elitist product so they do serve different audiences but i don't think we should be taken in by facebook trying to appeal to the every man defending small to medium sized businesses yes of course this will have an impact on them but i don't expect primary concern is this business or that profits facebook primary concern is its own bottom line and i think what's interesting about these 2 candidates debate is what we're seeing is 2 or in many cases more than that large companies go i think the whole reason we're having this argument or rather facebook and apple having these arguments is because there has been a historic failure to regulate the fact that facebook has managed to profit the

years of accumulating people's data has led to this point they've they've enjoyed a healthy exploitation of data was apple have a dominant market share they own a lot of infrastructural possibilities that allow it to control people's devices and how they consume that data and there's another aspect that i think we need to mention is that asshole themselves could stand to benefit financially from not having. people take the tracks because this could diminish the amount of revenue brought to advertising through apps it might force at makers to have a paper model which would then benefit apple financially so there is an element of financial war going on here not just affable saying that they're concerned about people's privacy. if i can add on to that to mark's point peter i'll say this is not a david and goliath right facebook and apple are both huge giant companies the other 2 companies you mentioned at the beginning but this stand to benefit from this are google and amazon right so you think about google and amazon have

a remarkable amount of data about us as well they get it in different ways and they're gonna not going to be affected by apple's changes nearly to the degree that facebook is but that's another thing facebook you know is going to be harmed google and amazon implicitly are going to be helped and of course apple is going to be helped itself as mark was just saying joyner is there may be a bigger fight coming not involving google and amazon per se but involving the little guys i mean both facebook and apple maybe have this bigger fight because there is now this thing called the coalition of up fairness and basically the likes of spotify and a company called match group match group is the umbrella company that owns globally an awful lot of dating apps now that's that's the ultimate form of advertising i guess but if you've got spotify with old they're quite freaky scary algorithms getting into bed no pun intended with dating apps around the world to square up

against apple and facebook i mean you know the poke roofie of this system that we all engage in in a year or 2 might be perhaps radically different. you know i really want to come back to some of the plans that were just made about regulation there isn't enough regulation in the sector and there was just regulation nouns in europe has proved the strongest regulators of the sector the digital services act and the design markets act so i agree that there's there's sort of some of fratricide happening a lot of this is about trying to shape and to be hard for a con i really love this point about who gets to just decide you know twitter decided and i was offended that a lot of people were twitter decided to basically censor the president of a g 7 country in the most recent election you know that and not to fully censor to even have that level of interference twitter we're not even talking about twitter

anywhere there in the state you know so the i think it's a great thing just as the european union is a great way to bring a bunch of small countries together i would love to see a bunch of small companies come together so that the representation is not only of these giants you know microsoft has got representation at the un now so that's great they're actually providing some public services there but we need to see that playing ground leveled out but we also really really need to see stronger regulatory measures taken and so i absolutely see this as an answer to i confuse the regulators in the european commission and i hope that we aren't confused jim would it be fair to say however that as far as these 2 hemis that we're talking about apple and facebook now i'm not saying either of them corporately or manifesting through individuals when they're up there on the stage talking or talking to positions i'm not saying your company lies i'm not saying you the company does anything that is explicitly or implicitly illegal however both

companies do kind of occupy a grey area when it comes to n.t. trust legislation particularly in the us and particularly in the e.u. and to go back to the point that joanna was making there seems to me that whether it's european commission politicians or senators and congressmen in the states the politicians have been in a time warp because they're always playing catch up 18 months or 2 years behind what the likes of facebook and apple are actually doing with their uses. yeah i think you're being generous on the timing i'm not sure they're 18 to 24 months behind they may be years behind and that's a real problem a regulation i think we all are for responsible regulation but there's 2 challenges with regulation number one is very messy process it's also very local right what happens in the e.u. is very different than what happens in the u.s. which is very different to what happened say in china right and so you know it also moves at a glacial pace compared to technology so i think you're always going to see regulators trying to play catch up with this fast moving technology but antitrust furthermore

we we need new theories of antitrust historically in the united states but all been about price if what a company is doing is causing you to pay more for a service then that might be considered antitrust well how do you how do you put that lens and front of a free product i don't pay to use facebook so i think you're going to see some new theories around antitrust probably beginning in the e.u. and then following along in the u.s. to try to deal with these new types of technology companies and apple is very much in that mix apples and incredibly dominant company and that app store we've been talking about i think it's got some significant antitrust concerns as well ok coming but you here and facebook the kind of go to stance on this either via the head of p.r. or via soccer come self they go to response to this over the past year or so when it comes to previously particularly pegged to your area of discipline ation has always been a uses prefer targeted. zuckerberg has said that in congress i've

spent 2 days trying to find imperial evidence that says if you're a facebook user you like getting targeted adverts can't find any what's going on there. sometimes i think when facebook talk about their own audience they are probably creating the audience that they desire and nobody's that and it's no different from the p.r. stunt that we're seeing here of facebook placing themselves as defenders of the small and medium sized business they 'd are taken on this mantle themselves without being invited and are exploiting that in order to make them appear that they care about the kind of every man the small business owner so i think it's a cynical marketing ploy that one thing i'd like to add though is well and we've talked about for example g.d.p. o n e regulation we have to remember as well that even in europe the big big tech companies that are compelling and fighting back and i think this is something that's also alarming it's not just going to be a question of regulated is slowly you know for example improving the regulation

about data privacy these companies are fighting back we've seen recently leaked documents shows that google and and other tech companies are basically increasing their lobbying presence in brussels in order to for example miss a case against these things like antitrust cases against apple and other companies so this is something we need to be very mindful of jonah brush and berlin what's facebook's end game here. i don't know if they have an end game except for of course it's like a bird really doesn't have all 8000000000 of us on one of those applications i suppress a point of personal pride. i do think it's much more about relative a concern about. you know it's a concern that doesn't even make sense if you look at the g.d.p. are the big tech fight it tooth and nail and then within 6 months are going to hope wow this is weird we're actually making more money it's like yes the you as a trading block we actually do things to make the digital economy better while also

protecting our citizens so i am i really going back to a couple of things that people are saying to better answer your question earlier yeah there's like 500000000 people in the you know it's true that's not the whole planet but if we got even that segment of customers to have their advertising a little bit more spread back out like it used to be over for the other times of journalism and things like that you know i believe that the only evidence you're going to find and i'm glad you've been having that problem so we are researching some of these market dominance the insight now here at the school but that i've you know they're probably their evidence is when they when they when they use the data they has they get more clicks and so they're happier over the customers they actually want are happier when they find that they've bought more suffered some more sites it's like are they happy when there's smoke more cigarettes ok i not sure ok last 15 seconds to you jim pull will not to do a u. turn does that mean the most to suck up or can facebook just have to suck it up and work around it. yes i think they do they really don't have

a choice as we talked about earlier apple's going to flip that switch facebook and complain and then they'll adapt and they well ok we have to leave it there the clock has beaten us as usual on inside story thank you all very much thank you to our guests jim anderson john bryson and mark owen jones and thank you too for your company can see the program again anytime via the website al-jazeera dot com and for more discussion go to our facebook page yes we do have one that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter handle at a.j. inside story for me peter dobby and everyone here on the team in doha thanks for watching we will see you very soon for the moment but i. discovered kazakstan. has

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