wrested but this misinformation could close knives with these scientists injecting the facts into the forward they have to stay people to see the truth. is there. hello again the headlines on al-jazeera the dutch government has collapsed over a child care subsidies scandal that had a devastating impact on thousands of families prime minister mark rights and his cabinet have quit off to report blame them for mismanaging the subsidies thousands of parents were wrongly accused of fraud some were forced into bankruptcy what's will remain in office in a caretaker capacity until elections are held in march stuff osten has more from amsterdam. this is all being seen now as a symbolic arrested nation because in 9 weeks from now elections are coming up and the prime minister is running for his party in these elections so many questions

were targeted at him personally during this press conference so why are you not taking any personal responsibility why are you still running in these elections and he said that as a cabinet of course and as the leader of the cabinet he is responsible for this scandal which actually really destroyed lives of tens of thousands nearly 26000 families here in the netherlands but he said because he wasn't the responsible minister he doesn't feel he has to step back from politics for now a powerful earthquake has hit the indonesian island of so the west city killing at least 34 people and injuring hundreds more many buildings have been severely damaged and civil defense all floridians are warning of strong aftershocks. votes are being counted in uganda as closely contested election with the final results expected on saturday early indications suggest president yarima 70 has a strong lead over his main challenger pop star turned politician bobby wine but

the opposition candidate has rejected the preliminary count insisting that the vote has been marred by widespread fraud and violence. u.s. prosecutors are alleging some rioters were stormed the capitol last week intended to capture and assassinate elected officials corps papers submitted in arizona for this man jacob chancellor to be arrested the memo has details of an f.b.i. investigation into him and it reveals he warned in a notes for u.s. vice president mike pence it's only a matter of time justice is coming chancing his lawyers say he doesn't feel at fault or has asked for a presidential pardon or the federal bureau of investigation the f.b.i. says they've identified more than 200 suspects those are the headlines the stream is coming up next on al-jazeera then it's the news hour from the car of my. own county the college president she's got ambition to turn china into a 30 trillion dollar economy by 2035 game be

a witness the biggest migration since operation with workers returned to cities and canned goods bombing the world. counting the cost on al-jazeera. after me ok you watching this story today we focus on the legal situation of a full screen guest wiki leaks founder julian assange he's a legal situation has been going on feel he has a brief recap i'm going to start in a pool 2019 that was with the u.s. chance to silence me smite the intrusion. in the same month a songe was removed from the ecuadorian embassy in london and we fast forward to may 2019 when the us bring 17 espionage charges against a sentence and then his june $21000.00 u.s. seeks a songes extradition from the u.k.

that brings us all most up to date to week when this headline was going around the world u.k. judge blocks the u.s. request to extradite a someone so now what happened study's one of many questions i'm sure. so you couldn't jump in jack comment section and you cheat and be part of today's discussion. if your sons' was extradited to the united states he would place a battery of nearly 2 dozen charges very grave serious charges carrying a maximum penalty of around 175 years behind bars and he would serve that time in a supermax prison where conditions are extremely harsh so keeping someone in solitary confinement 23 hours a day is a form of mental and physical torture it is cruel unusual and degrading treatment

contrary to the 94 convention against torture. joining us to discuss free and sanjay's case and he's willing to implications great a poor back and welcome to the stream great to have a plea he you are a what you do. draw on brigands i'm a barrister in history and witches are an advocate i've been working on new cern crayfish now since 2013 are particularly were constrained in aspects of the campaign and because do not change of course it's not turned into the nice to have you know a print to literally what you do. hi i'm a pro ball from a lawyer in the u.s. i spent over a decade in the national security agency of the u.s. intelligence community and also in the u.s. u.s. senate intelligence committee i do cyber security and privacy law and i am the author of cyber privacy who has your data and why you should care it get to you and tell rebecca thanks for joining us but he did introduce yourself to international

audience so i'm the director of international campaigns for reporters without borders which is known internationally as reporter some frontier i lead r.s.s. campaign for the release of julian assange and i have personally monitored the entire u.s. extradition proceedings against julian assange here in london. when. i'm just thinking greg you are in touch not the g. innocent but with his part nest how is he doing since the u.k. judge said last week he cannot be extradited but you have to go back to the u.k. prison belmar aspiration. well i think there's some relief within the camp if i can use that term the last we've been saying that british justice do its job in that shootings there's also concern now about 3 broader implications of the movement for british breaks for the terms of the personal issues while it reminds in belmarsh prison julian assange is declining critical middle health bill much

version is a brutal place hopeless for anyone let alone a person who is not the interim do you have any remorse. and i think some disappointment that was not granted but certainly. i guess now is very much on united states and and whether or not. it can be issued but also. this is all making sure that julius jones can be reunited with. their 2 children people what do you make of the legal judge's ruling that it will be detrimental to julian songes health to be extradited to the united states well it's certainly an interesting ruling and and i pod the judge for making sure that they are taking into account those are very real concerns i would note i don't think it's clear or or certain that specific conditions of confinement as onto it have if in fact he were extradited but certainly it would be important if the exit extradition goes

through to make sure that any confinement is carried out in accordance with international norms. i'm just looking out what's. gonna be saying about belmarsh prison conditions i'm going to shave the sleeve you rebecca i'm sure you've probably seen some of these just heard from judy and it's freezing in the south the hall just type system broke he says it's getting really really cold we're at a critical juncture we need to get him out of prison now with becca suits i mean it's appalling we've seen what he has faced a belmarsh prison now for some time and the judge's decision not to release him on bail is at odds with her extradition decision on monday we heard her detail these very mental health issues that will exist be exacerbated with a pro a longer period of detention she mentions that it would be worse and the u.s.

prison conditions actually stated clearly that these issues have been present throughout his period of incarceration even with support such as frequent access to his family we know that he would not be given that in the u.s. and i'm sorry but i take issue with april saying we don't know what conditions he will face in the u.s. we heard days of expert testimony about that in september about what special administrative measures look like in the u.s. the inhumane conditions he would face there he would go to the same facility that chelsea manning actually attempted suicide and we know very well what he will face this is a highly vulnerable individual that has also been well documented in facts not even disputed by the prosecution's own medical witness that testified in september who acknowledged the depression and the suicidal thoughts. but i want to take a moment also just to note there's of course humanitarian urgency for his release he should be released now for his physical health for his mental health but also as a matter of principle we believe the entire case against him should be dropped as a matter of principle he should not be deprived unjustly of his liberty for another

day this case is about journalism it is about for press freedom and in that regard we were very disappointed with the substantive portion of the extradition decision although of course relieved that the decision was against extradition on mental health grounds. yes so this is really where i have to push back then this really isn't about a journalism case you know that julian assange his activities certainly have been in view of the us authorities since 2010 but the indictment itself although it includes a number of counts is not focused on speech activities it's focused on computer crimes as the as the primary instigating factor now where it's a complicated indictment and for viewers who may not have read it there are charges of conspiracy there are charges of hacking essentially unauthorized access to computers or exceeding authorized access to computers both attempts alleged by

assumption self and attempts that he allegedly encouraged others to make and then there's charges relating to publication of classified defense material from a from a us freedom of speech perspective. as protections in the u.s. fall broadly within the 1st amendment to the constitution and the charges relating to publication of defense information are the ones that have caused many 1st amendment scholars in the u.s. to you know sort of look sideways at it and say is this really you know sort of an . untested area to go down however it has always been the case that journalists don't get a free pass for breaking the law and show while wiki leaks may have been founded with the intention of publishing information as news reporting organizations do around the world if in fact assumptions involved either in attempting himself or encouraging others to attempt hacking into computers that's a crime and that's what he's been charged with in this indictment and so the

physical world corollary to this right is that reporters have a long published information that was obtained from confidential sources in hard copy for example out of a government office or a corporate office or something like that the reporters. typically do and should have protection for publishing information that has been provided to them however a reporter who breaks into an office and steals files out of a cut out of a file cabinet certainly can be charged for the crime of breaking and entering and theft and that's essentially what this u.s. indictment attempts to do is focus on the computer crime dimension of it and that's what's at the heart of the allegations but i mean i don't i. don't really know. what do you know he didn't have to do this briefly so that we don't get stuck on this one point you know because we took we could talk about it for an hour rebecca very quickly greg very quickly and then i'm going to bring in because they also

want to talk to all 3 of you. looking forward to hearing from you know i wanted to take it back to the broader point because it's incorrect to say that the case is purely about hacking their 18 charges against joining us on only one is under the computer fraud and abuse at the other 17 or under the national the espionage act and in fact the problem with with those charges are that nobody in this position could defend themselves because the law lacks a public interest defense and a publisher any journalist any source who published need to information can find themselves in the same exact position as julian assange now the computer fraud and abuse act u.s. government only in the very late stages in fact whilst extradition proceedings were ongoing that expanded the scope of those charges and in fact when he came in the september proceeding started the evidence or a portion of the extradition proceedings sauce himself had not even read the new superseding indictment because it was filed so late and i hadn't made it to him in prison but the u.s. government i believe it is time for me shane to undermine sorry just to finish my

sentence is intentionally trying to either mind the case that this is about journalism the u.s. government sees a support he's getting from media from the free expression community and that's just evidence of further the political nature of the u.s. case against him. greg let me just put. the. i mean it doesn't need cheap thoughts to you as well as to the so that we can include i would it's we presume to do that as a monk henstridge says keep him in jail he broke the law he's not a journalist by any means he thinks the laws in applying to him we do not want him back in australia did julian assange write the law. will certainly not not in my view and secondly he's a journalist in fact guys organization was given a war korean war which is the top award to commute given the journalists in australia is a member of the media in a time of the not so once which is the union for journalists. but. there's a broader point here and that is that the extraterritorial originated charges this

is an australian citizen not set foot in the united states has been charged with in the french under the mystic is to be an object unprecedented as far as we know and very very concerning and there are journalists all around straight if there is a senior journalist extremely concerned with the implications of. if this prosecution is allowed to pursuing because they themselves could find if i wish material. and a cynical to u.s. interests by funding shows on named of an extradition request from the u.s. to a strike and they say this is the broader implications here let me just share some thoughts he from you tube and then i'm going to go to dr courtney radish because i want to have a conversation that's happening on multiple different platforms with a lot of the desk pull mendis as a john is i recognize the role he had as a son jimmy feeling a lot of wrong doings and he helped a lot of genesee in big cases but i wouldn't call him a journalist's and and middy t.

says i think everyone knows that this is the moment that will define free speech a songe is a journey that debate has been going on for yes but there's a broader depends and courtney is going to bring that into the conversation hold tight greg a come straight. we walk in the ruling by the london court to not extradite chilliness arms to the united states but while the ruling was a win for a son and it was a blow to press freedom and that the judge did not outright reject the u.s. department of justice case against a saddam's including the use of the espionage act the fact is that journalists regularly communicate with government sources obtain classified information and ask questions that part might prompt those sources to go digging further these are all fundamental parts of journalism and especially investigative journalism greg i had . but what i mean the put the point that i would make these and this is appointed

by my boss trying to form a foreign minister both congress agree. the question of whether or not he's a journalist you know seems is a side issue the real issue is this what the join in the soccer field that's now the subject of charges he revealed war crimes committed by united states military personnel in iraq and you also reveal the activities wolf like to receive u.s. and its allies in afghanistan that's what was released if julian assange had relation with syria which was pro the united states or if it relates to the documents just been released the last 24 hours about the china can i mean strategy that they don't cost $5.00 that we know a problem and so that's what's going to be kept in mind and just cried and a lot of people say this crisis or that framework in iraq to do so. 100 people see the case through that framework but but you know to be fair that lens really prevent the present a very one sided view of what wiki leaks has published for example greg your point

in the mix of what wiki leaks pushed out relating to afghanistan iraq syria where the names of individuals in that come in that in those countries who were cooperating with coalition forces putting the medics shoring areas risk to their vives show if we want to talk about journalistic ethics there's certainly a great deal that has been appropriately criticised in how with the lexus functions and how julian assange functions but i think that the question of journalistic ethics is a bit distinct from the question about allegations of violating the law and again for folks who haven't read the 49 page indictment it is full of details about not simply talking to sources saying hey see what you can get me i'd be interested in x. or y. or z. but send me this code let me attempts to try it let me help you try to hack this password to gain access to an account that you don't have authorized access to let me help i need your help in hacking the accounts of people who are now no longer my

advise people who used to be part of wiki leaks and are now on my bad list right now and these are all just allegations in the complaint i certainly don't have any view of what would be proved in court but these allegations are all about hacking not journalism even though some of the again as i've mentioned earlier some of the charges are the problematic once the challenging ones around publication the heart of all the facts in this indictment and many of the charges against him relate to computer crime allegations not to anything having to do with. anything would be considered traditional journalistic practices but april you have said that you would say that these are only allegations but the u.s. got. has had the opportunity to prove its case it presented evidence to the court here in the u.k. it did not present any substantial evidence indicating that he did in fact solicit

hacking it seemed in fact that they love the evidence to do so and i'm sorry and also going to a grand jury disagreed a grand jury returned to indictment and so the grand jury process is what came forward with this you know there allocate clearly to. your day also that it's about hacking and not about journalistic ethics but then you get into the source issue that's again only an allegation the u.s. government has had 10 years to show any evidence of a single person harmed by the publication of this information and has not done so the case that they made to this court in the u.k. was extremely weak and in fact the defense has has given very compelling evidence showing that julian assange took every reasonable measure possible to protect sources when he learned of the forthcoming publication of these documents which was out of wiki leaks control sir the us government has never gone after anybody else who published these unproductive documents which still live on the internet and many other places this is evidence again of the political nature of the case that they are making an example of joined us on specifically to create a chilling effect internationally on national security reporting and it has worked

we will never know already over the past 10 years what stories have not come out because of this chilling effect our concern now is not only securing the release of julius and putting a stop to this politically motivated case against him but security better protections for journalists publishers and sources so that this can't happen to anybody else because this information was in the public interest the public had a right to know about war crimes and other illegal acts by the us government that is what is at stake all of our right to know not just the rights of one man sitting unjustly in a prison cell today. rebecka going got just my menu so earlier to get greg has just met you will save us time here we are going to add to mark davis who was spoke to your point by becca about the global chilling impact when there is a wrong doing happening around the well how jealous even investigate how do we know about that is mark while we're concerned about the injustice that's being inflicted on julian sands the something greater at stake and that is the chilling effect

that this prosecution has already had on national security journalism throughout the world who in their right mind would risk revealing government documents now when the potential penalty for that is greater than i than a murderer would vice. yes crack. let me just see if we can move this conversation on a little bit but i do want to make a quick quick in relation to the point that rebecca is my to agree with and one of the problems with the treaty that governs extradition between united states and united kingdom is that it's a very large threshold for the united states to get someone extradite a very large threshold it's not beyond ration buildout. step that has to be taken or even balance of probabilities so that's one of the difficulties you can be lazy

and when it's crisis and get a wife in a sense it has but to come back to the point that i'm not to have us. that this is rot that they there is a chilling impact. by virtue of the prosecutions of high profile people i generally done in this sort of situation which is maybe less for one good reason wait and that he's. an example to us and we've heard it with the same right across australia right across the united kingdom right across the us from stand of attacks which we're back with now a lot more about the may substandard attacks on journalists and media organizations for publishing material which the security state the names that it does not want published and that's to really impact of the assad scratch you can talk wracking you can talk about that and it is important to put to bed by the way this idea that it will put at risk it's

a nonsense it was put to bed in the chelsea manning case it was not asserted as if the prosecution case will be traced in this particular matter but in these important overall to assume the broad philosophical prices. for this particular prosecution and then as a site is to set an example and to might give an example of someone that the us has gone under the us a scheme it's very very dangerous and it's not just people on the left to assign. the american people on iraq turned foreign minister was. restrained in the what. the world. could not nonwhite another stretch of imagination because as a member of a list. i have only one wolf and i think that you can help we wrap up this conversation weiss is actually she chased a can so low do you think the u.s.

will ever give up well that's a great question and you know as we've seen different approaches towards a sound and wiki leaks over the years under different administrations certainly under the obama administration there was a real hesitancy to move forward any kind of prosecution and we didn't see these charges filed until the current administration took shape of course now we see very high profile calls for current president trump to pardon a songe before he leaves office next week and president elect biden steps in so really hard to say exactly you know how the future of this extradition. process is going to play out from the u.s. side. again i think that really where we can expect to see continued concern. from the u.s. is around how to draw this distinction between protected journalistic activities

and allegations of computer crimes. so what you know from the national security and security community in the united states are they likely to give up on this. well you know it's a great question and i think it might be helpful to just remind everybody who might be watching or listening that the national security community is entirely distinct from prosecutor prosecutorial charging decisions by the department of justice so any to this this was an indictment that came out of the eastern district of virginia from the department of justice completely separate and distinct from any views or opinions that you know might be held within national security agencies within the u.s. intelligence community those charging decisions are just separate and appropriately so. i guess i have to say you have ignited at an extraordinary conversation in you will have 8 hours and says 99 percent of the charges are about of training and

publishing documents not compete a crime allegations. and then so what interesting you have to thank you for being part of the conversation. what will it take to hold accused accountable for their crimes it seems like this is focus not just on a son is not the information being brought to light it seems like the u.s. is just deflecting this extradition case been going on for a very long time i have an idea that this will not be the last time we took but julian a solid in the idea implications of this extradition case but for now thank you greg the becket april for a very dynamic come to such an end you chivas and you be excellent questions as well as his family ok signing off from the home edition stream studio i will see next time thanks for watching.

the health of humanity is at stake a global pandemic requires a global response. w.h.o. is the guardian of global health delivering lifesaving to school supplies and training to help the world's most found people uniting across borders to speed up the development of test treatments and of that. working with scientists and health workers to learn all we can about the virus keeping you up to date with what's happening on the ground in the ward and in the land advocating for everyone to have access to essential health services now more than ever the world needs w.h.o. making a healthy a world. for everyone. man

. the brazilian journalist investigating a politically section of land grab all the farmers helped yet also not elected and he's repay them that's empowering everyday people to profit from the destruction of the rain forest people are almost willing to give their life away to guarantee the occupation out of their lands is journalism the last hope in the fight for sleep the amazon the system not only a land conflict but a conflict of narrative brazil the age of boston are all whose truth is it anyway and al-jazeera really understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world so no matter what we add to the news and kind of fires that matter to you. who started as a modest man. i carry a soldier who never imagined he might one day become president of egypt. he had an ambitious wife. and son he became an autocrat and was imprisoned for the wrong lawful killing of protesters. the story of the rise and fall of hosni mubarak

the family of a short one. this is al-jazeera. this is. coming up the next 60 minutes the pentagon confirms there's been a further reduction in u.s. troops in both afghanistan and iraq fulfilling a promise made by president told trump. a pop star turned presidential candidate. has entered his home after his.