simply use the. or less group the village. we develop now goes live. i mean. activists warn that unless the government puts an end to unrestrained and sometimes illegal acquisitions nigeria could soon face conflicts bigger than those the country is currently dealing with somebody's address. but an interview. with al-jazeera these are our top stories as ron's prime minister has pleaded not guilty to corruption charges and minutes now his apparent in a west jerusalem court for herring and says he's the victim of what he calls an attempted coup by forces outside the court in west jerusalem. the object of today's trial is for his noite legal team to respond to those accusations that he committed

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streaming on the channel. lost thousands of our programs will be documentaries and. subscribe to. al-jazeera english. anger grows against the man mars military coup as protests spread foreign companies are under pressure to cut ties with the army's vast business empire but what will drawing investments be enough to bring back civilian rule this is inside story. hello and welcome to the program i'm how much i'm jerome threats of arrest and internet shutdowns have not deter people from denouncing last week's military coup in me and more in fact protests have now spread to several cities tens of thousands

of people rallied for a 2nd day in myanmar as largest city yangon they want the army generals to release on song suchi and restore her democratically elected government she's been charged with violating import export laws something her supporters say is an excuse to keep her detained the military has disrupted access to social media to stop people organizing the demonstrations now there's growing pressure on international companies to cut ties with me and more to put pressure on the coup leaders the military has extensive business interests that it operates to dozens of companies a u.n. fact finding mission in 2100 found these covered everything from construction to pharmaceuticals and tourism and much of the revenue from these businesses goes directly to the top coup leaders and their families japan's brewing giant kiran is ending a joint venture with a company linked to the military the firm says it's deeply concerned by the coup adding it decided to invest in 2015 to help me and more is democratic reforms local businesses are worried that more international firms will leave. the other motive

in the world it is difficult to work under an unelected government he creates major problems with investments international business we have problems coming into the country the market is very narrow eemian it will be harder for foreign firms to work here it is put under sanctions if so they will leave me a ma to maintain the image so the cuba affects how business is misspent foreign investment. all right let's bring in our guests in bangkok debbie stothard founder and coordinator of obscene burma a network of asean organizations working to support human rights and democracy in myanmar in london ronan li visiting scholar at queen mary university of london and author of memoirs for him genocide in the cab illinois therapy associate professor at the department of world languages and cultures at northern illinois university a warm welcome to you all debbie let me start with you today now that curan has cut

ties with al that's the conglomerate with ties to me and mars' military do we expect that more companies or at least more foreign companies are going to be doing the same i think any company that so understanding its obligations for human rights due diligence should cut its ties with any military owned companies the military these military companies are notorious for some of the worst human rights violations including wide scale then grabbing in the country and it's time that the rick perry didn't make human rights violations a profitable business run and could you tell us a little bit more about me and more economic holdings public company this is this conglomerate with ties to me and more is military what do we know about its ties to the military and also its ownership structure. well ties the military are

incredibly close the military has. worked for 6 decades to pilfer money from ordinary. people they have constructed a raw wide range of companies and there's hundreds of the of business interests in me and ma that are controlled are owned and directed by me and mas military and any national company that does business with them is helping to put money into the pocket of me in my eyes military and importantly to put money into the pocket of the hangers on the crime and he's associated with military leaders family members and other people who have managed to become rich through their connections with the military and this is had an effect of retarding other economic growth that me and i are it means that that businesses that are not connected with the military have had as a result struggled and that needs to change therapy in 2019 united nations investigators

warned global companies that were doing business with this conglomerate m e h l that they were aiding the military and that they were at high risk of contributing to human rights abuses in myanmar what was the response from businesses at the time. well it goes hand in hand with the changes right so the international communities all the businesses think that we have to liberate democracy and right that. businesses sutton's reflect that thinking that full it's new to the political system and the economist systems will trickle down that trickle down business approach doesn't work. so this is what is going on so but i would like to emphasize that you know the military holden's and also the companies that do not you know. but refutations as

much as you know the key ran like this so we have no tele no we have now already to actually these 2 companies that global companies could have immediate impact in on what is going on inside their country right or so. already do many more than a quarter of b. and profit in 2019 and the same for tell you know they make over $800000000.00 so these companies also really think you know they were all works to ban internet and they borrowed to their military request so we tend to overlook these but they can have immediate impact the movements inside the country call the wall to bear witness to what is going on and you know they know that a serious crime is going to be committed and these telecommunications are such and the light of on the was so when we talk about sanctions and business especially

amit we have to look into these really really. big companies that have actually good reputations around goals so i mean they know we have you know you know you know constantly on what display on the united states is planning new sanctions on myanmar but it's unclear how effective these will be the u.s. isn't even among its top 5 trading partner. me and more is more reliant on china than any other country so far the chinese government has only noted what took place and called for stability thailand is also an important partner it's the 2nd biggest market for me and mars goods the thai deputy prime minister has called the military takeover an internal affair others like india japan and south korea could be essential to put pressure on the coup leaders debbie let me ask you it's all very well for japanese companies like here in to pull out of me and more but what is all this going to do when it comes to chinese companies when it comes to other countries who are very much invested in me and more right now. well let's face the

reality that the us walk it is still one of the largest markets for chinese companies and chinese products and if china breaks sanctions and includes remy's products produced by military companies from burma india supply chain they're going to face the same challenges that they have that has happened where the u.s. customs actually confiscated textiles and governments from china because. slave labor if that we the concentration camps went into those supply chains if this is thought just about whether we buy things from it's about everybody along the supply chain any business that has products in a supply chain needs to have some proper due diligence ron and i saw you nodding along to debbie there did you want to jump in. yeah i died totally agree with that

i think it's important that any business that's doing trade with me in my moving forward is able to demonstrate that he doesn't have connections with the military and it's very clear that i'm like under the trumpet ministration biden is taking an interest in me and ma and biden's administration will take action it's unclear what that will be i mean i think it's quite likely to be some form of sanctions but there's an opportunity i think for the biden administration to really target this sanctions in a way that hurts the businesses that are connected with the military and at the same time that would provide an advantage to businesses that aren't connected with me a mouse military i mean that's that's the way forward that's that's what will help use business pressure financial pressure to make the crime ease pressure

the military to step away from the. and to restore democracy it's important to i mean i go i agree with that the point that was made earlier about about major ran the major run telecommunications companies they've got good reputations in other part of parts of the will never not be too nitty in me and ma to simply refuse to take the orders from the coup leaders they can say quite quite clearly that the military does not represent the legitimate government of myanmar and that they won't take its orders to shut down the internet therapy you heard ronen there talk about the fact that u.s. president biden is threatening to impose new sanctions against me and mars military how much of an impact do you think that would have that will have impact but another thing we can do as you know. the previous coup and the previous dictatorship got away without any impunity it doesn't that isn't wrong

message the international community not not some but that this is the weakness of you know the sanctions because there are powerful symbolically but if there is no impugn to say so like nigeria did with a dictatorship apart right the us there was a. lawyer that tried to find many and tenet to 90 area if we can do it you know that would be a real strong message you know this is this isn't real in repercussion funny thought that the fall of the military is a but the other didn't we i could. i would like to kind of to start you know we talk about tele noise and all radios so so and then they actually were you know. operating under the legal fight was the business models the international community accept that we have to realize that this law deal is troll because we relied on you

know the trickle down effect right now 60 percent of internet a small kid and it is operated by very small communications companies so if many players especially the locally owned businesses could try and the business model no not the capital is the number a couple tell as you know the laws as promoted i mean that is what gets these people are the system by some of the internet you know of course some of them you know off all the government channels but the rest is run by this small companies but this is a real good example and people should take lessons from ron and i want to take a step back and take a look for a 2nd one particular person at the top of the military food chain a man more that's general men online he of course is the top military commander in the country he is now leading the country since the coup how much has he enrich himself as head of the army in me and more. well his family have developed a business empire based on their connections with the me that this real talk

ringback that one of the key reasons for the coup was to protect the financial interests of mino lang and he is family to retire later this year and that the feeling that the national league for democracy government under uncensored she might frustrate his ability to stay on. caused him to launch the coup because he's fear of course would have been that once he's out of power that he can't provide the protection and the contacts and the sweet deal for his family to continue to enrich themselves at the expense of of ordinary people in me and my i mean in many ways at its core this is about the economy and it's about who gets to control me and mows economy the way i see you not in quite a bit to iran is saying i mean let me pose the question to you based on what ronan said do you believe that had met online actually stepped aside as he was scheduled

to do later this summer having been aged out of his military leadership role was there the danger of him potentially being investigated for these lucrative deals and how much of a problem with that have been for him. well the n.l.b. was elected for a 2nd to with a much bigger majority and that would have empire emboldened it and empowered it to ensure that this government. put a put a hold and put its foot down and came to corruption when it came to whittling away at military economic power the big problem in burma in our young man now is that this is a country of immense economic growth but the lion's share of the profits is being held by the military and their cronies and not being equitably distributed going back to ronan's book on the rohingya genocide a lot of people fail to realize that new f.b.i.

in the country fell by 67 percent immediately in the year off the genocide in 2070 that represents nearly 3 years of the national health budget and that's particularly important given that burma is now coping with an explosion of coded therapy i guess one of the questions a lot of people are asking right now is you know companies that have been affiliated in some way with me in mars military have for a while now come under criticism from members of the international community from un investigative bodies and it didn't seem to bother them when there were these atrocities that were being committed against the rohingya in rock crime state which became a huge humanitarian crisis the u.n. called it a textbook example of ethnic cleansing. why is there this outrage now and why now

might we see more companies cutting ties with memoirs military. exactly right the companies only care about. their p.r. random tests will have to come in you know and so the questions of the senate only after you know their. reputation has turned as in terms of. not taken dondi hate speech hate campaigns and instigations on facebook on to mema so he. also i think that company comes leniently forget that absolute well needs absolute power to protect it since there is nothing going on to take away that wealth you know the day after 2017 and you know now after 200-1000 international day i see j k says you know so so they were only trying to protect their interests even stronger and the business. will has to wake up and

realize that they too note it may. not be so they could have preempted you know that this this this coup and also what i would like to point out is that no they these business companies have double standards around the wall so if tele no was asked to ban internet and all we're going to do that right but they did they didn't hesitate to do it so i would like to call of these 2 companies to to to to it's not just upset reflect and you know stop these double standards around the world ronan there is a school of thought out there espoused by some analysts who worry that broader u.s. economic sanctions against me and more is military could harm me and more by cutting it off from potentially more diverse foreign investment and that if that were the case china would just fill in the vacuum what do you say to that. i think

circumstances are not quite as they were maybe 1015 years ago in the street got i think it's possible now for the us to impose very targeted sanctions that focus like a laser baby on companies connected with me and mas military i mean there was a a united nations human rights council report about this in 2019 and they recommended focusing very clearly on companies connected with the military and since simultaneously supporting business in me and mot connected with the military i think i think a couple things have changed in recent times too i mean the engagement of the u.s. with me and not change is the playing field remarkably companies like karen did not feel it in the aftermath that the regime crisis in 2017 that they'd be meaningful consequences for them internationally either by the reputational or in

terms of penalties that they obviously feel they will be nat and i think that what we've seen this week at the united nations security council that the china did sign up to a statement from the security council mean much i mean china's relationship with own sense of she was very good prior to the coup china's support for me and mas military post has been less than fulsome i mean yes yes they've been they have not can dampen and but it's it's not the wholehearted support that the coup leaders would have would have wanted and i think it's possible now to make use of the u.s. as engagement and china is feeling that maybe they would have got a better deal. of the civilian administration to really make some changes in me and my i mean this young people on the streets they they do not want the military back i mean most people are mia ma. young born after 1988 when young censored.

she came to political prominence they don't want to return to a country ruled by all means male soldiers debby it looked to me very much like he wanted to jump in and add to what ron was saying please go ahead i i think we can't use china as an excuse to not to act a lot of people have been saying what about china that well china is there but china is also part of the global economy and it has increasingly had to be accountable for its engagement so i think when the u.s. and when the rest of the international community need and whether that's targeted economic sanctions which is really needed but also through stakeholders and consumer activism china has to listen because it depends on global supply chains and global markets their ip what do you think could there be a type of targeted sanction that would make a difference now and also you know is china going to be listening this time will

they take it differently than they have in the past. i want to find out then you know someone has to go back to iran and so times times are different now rights above but for after the kudo international community you had to do a catch up game listed list trying to list all the companies and businesses that they think of them and all that right now we have the ready make lists so particularly you know to the. work of an eis issues like justice for myanmar so immediately after the announcement of the cook. everybody was sharing the list of the companies the list of the directors right people were taken down by tell people were asked in the you know libya companies to to come and take their beers back because that they're not going to sell any of these you military old business a sensible by the so people people as a when

a is probably the highest right now and also the the power they gender and generation need and you know we met i lived through the 1988 i was 10 so we we we could only imagine what could be like without a military but this generation has already lived through they have the experience what it is to live without you know i haven't it's fair and the look over your shortest when you talk something bad about the government right this generation has a sense and actually let live in it right they're not going to learn everything taken away so and also no more like any other countries like tunisia afghanistan shouldn't be the proxy wall for the global global power strain so to think what the the foreign policy impact these countries now we have seen tremendous progress in.

you ask them don't do most don't domestic policy only if they could be. you know. transfer to foreign policy saying you know the u.s. is a china has given us russia i mean these are the all of our all of the low the critique of the of the reflection off the foreign policies would not would help not just yet mark but the tensions that have become such late you know become a proxy was all these cool. ronen we don't have a whole lot of time left just about a minute but you and i have spoken a lot in the past about the plight of the rohingya and i want to ask you if you think that this new focus on the military and this increased pressure on me and more is military will bring more attention from international actors to the plight of the ring with support in the region situation isn't forgotten in all this it's important that international actors don't go back to a focus solely on returning

a form of democracy to me and ma that doesn't deliver for everyone in the in mid march but the young people on the streets today in yang gone in mandalay and elsewhere they they don't want a return to the broken democracy that allowed the military to mistreat the rich as they as they did in 2017 and seats they want a genuine democracy or me and mop where this civilian oversight of the military and any changes that diminish military power in myanmar will be considering it all right we've run out of time to we're going to have to leave the conversation there thanks so much to all of our guests debbie started runnin li and therapy than. and thank you too for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al-jazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter we're at a.j. inside story for me i'm a gentleman the whole team here. remains

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