and backed by bitcoin as early as later this year if it's approved by government regulators and there's a lot of money at stake as early as last month the total value of all cyber currencies reached over $1.00 trillion dollars. i'll just you know new york. there are these are all top stories. have morning shots during a crackdown on anti crew protesters at least 27 people have been arrested in the 2nd largest city mandalay and demonstrators have been hit with water cannon activists have been replying by pelting police with rocks and rubbish as they ignore bans on gatherings to demand the release of deposed civilian leader and son

16. the world health organization team has been investigating the origins of the current virus pandemic and china says it's unlikely the virus leaked from a lab experts say it's more likely to have jumped from to humans from an animal although they cannot pinpoint the exact source they'll have on no indication that the virus was present and will hand before december 29th. in terms of understanding what happened in the early days in december 2019 did we did we change dramatically the picture we had before hand. i don't think so. did we improve our understanding did we add details to that story absolutely we did not. find evidence of large outbreaks of that could be related to teachers of 19 prior to december of 90. or

elsewhere. kong's top court has denied bail to media tycoon jimmy line is accused of fraud and conspiring with foreign forces and the beijing's controversial national security law is the most high profile person among more than 100 have been arrested under the new legislation the 73 year old is to remain in custody until his trial is heard almost 200 people are still missing in northern india after a classic collapse on sunday triggering flash floods rescue crews a digging through a block tunnel hoping to free more than 30 power plant workers trapped inside. lawyers for former u.s. president donald trump defense papers saying the senate impeachment trial starting on tuesday is unconstitutional but democrats prosecuting trump say he has no valid defense. now with all the headlines more news here on al-jazeera after inside story .

is the u.s. losing the war against cyber attacks american trade agents reveal that other countries hired them to spy on washington and its allies president joe biden is promising to make cyber security a priority so can he deliver this is inside story. hello and welcome to the program i'm homage enjoy him the united states has one of the world's most extensive intelligence operations the government is projected to spend just under $19000000000.00 on cyber security this year despite this security

experts say the u.s. is losing ground to other nations who are hiring american trained agents to spy on enemies and other americans the new york times says the united arab emirates hired former national security agency operatives to target they hacked e-mails between caught a share homo's up and also an michelle obama during the former 1st lady's visit to doha in 2015 it's the latest allegation of the u.a.e. hiring u.s. expertise to spy on adversaries the revelations come as america is still reeling from one of its worst ever cyber attacks in december hackers compromise an information technology firm called solar winds they use that access to spy on the government u.s. cyber security agencies blame russia but moscow denies involvement in 2015 a security breach was discovered at the u.s. office of personnel management hackers stole the personal data of more than 22000000 people many of them government employees. in 2016 both the democratic national committee and hillary clinton's presidential campaign were targeted more

than 40000 emails were leaked many containing confidential information and over the past decades many private companies have been hacked including yahoo sony adobe and linked in some breaches lead to millions of people having their personal data compromised that includes passwords phone numbers and credit card information u.s. president joe biden is making cyber security a priority he's hiring more experts and plans to boost funding we've elevated the status of cyber issues within our government including a point of 1st national deputy national security advisor for cyber and emerging technology we're launching an urgent initiative to improve our capability readiness and resilience in cyberspace. all right let's bring in our guests in augusta georgia jake williams president and founder of rendition info sec and the u.s. army veteran in geneva switzerland so if you're gonna c.e.o.

of the cyber peace institute and a former europol official and in arlington virginia bryson bort c.e.o. of sky and co-founder of i.c.'s village a nonprofit organization advancing education and awareness of security for critical infrastructure welcome to the program price and let me start with you today on the one hand america is the world's most advanced cyber superpower but it's also the most targeted how did the u.s. become as vulnerable as it has become yes so the expression that we have there is. the reference to the glass house and certainly as we've moved into the information age it's no surprise that he never want to come to me in the world with modern business predicated on yours although it's who are critical infrastructure that which how active we are and for us see that bursley on the private side that would make us both a goal and open to those kinds of things. stefan let me ask you from your vantage

point is the u.s. one of the countries that is most vulnerable to cyber attacks and what's the impact of that and thank you for having us. the most a little more is going to the complex notion. as long as everyone agrees that it is a business a little bit with private companies can be doing something the kind of intrusion tools they can to think tools that she'd on the vulnerabilities of everyone and at the end of the day everyone is unknowable because assuming all of us are it's neutral and he's going to have the business model so states are suffering from jake in december it was revealed that the u.s. was hit by a hacking operation that was blamed on russia and described as the worst in american history what is president biden currently doing to strengthen cyber security well certainly there have been a number of initiatives but i think one of the most important pieces is

strengthening that public private partnership the reality is that today a lot of private businesses in the united states have cyber security now regimes and cyber security tools and staff that are on par with or exceed what we're often we find in u.s. government regardless of you know whether you put the u.s. government above or below commercial space again that trust back into government cybersecurity is huge and binds down a lot of staff that would with folks that are trusted throughout the industry to rebuild a public private partnership bryson the new york times article that we were citing earlier by the cole pro roth says that the n.s.a. knew that the vulnerabilities it was finding and exploiting would one day blow back on americans that they developed a strategy called active defense but that that strategy ultimately didn't work that well what's your take on that and do you think that the n.s.a. has focused more on off and than it has on defense. yeah i think i think the question isn't quite framed correctly and this is where i go sideways but

you know to say is that the national security agency is not solely responsible for the defense of all computers and the united states their mission is much more outside of the country and focused on a signals intelligence to understand the expense of adversaries or in the case of cyber attacks. some level of c. there was an attempt to disrupt so i think we have seen plenty of precedent where the private industry has done a lot with that take downs that we did recently. and certainly as chait noted i mean part of what we're going to see on a divided administration is be continued for domestic agencies like csa bet it's going to take the lead on even more of a domestic vocus a lot more public private partnership because it's all one connected ecosystem that has to work together to respond to these things jake i saw you nodding along somewhat bryson was saying to you want to jump in oh yeah definitely look i have

100 percent agree with what branson saying here are the the n.s.a. definitely does have a much more limited mandate they are not in charge of protecting our computers in the united states in particular on the domestic side and we do need more investment in that to and that the fence you know defensive posture and reality wise we need timely dissemination information from the government on down to private entities and that's what chris crabs and others over sees an administration i don't expect to see more of that in the current administration safad do you believe that the average person around the world really has a good idea a good grasp of just how vulnerable their security and the security of their respective governments are to the threat from cyber attacks and hacking and cyber warfare. as soon as you want to hers 1st because most of the attacks when they are misquoted who lies and who from the value of the phone with costs who are ideas

for whom in words that are very difficult to grow as a citizen and we do too often forgot that the focus should be the human cost the societal impact to the attack you mentioned before what's what can we look into in terms of strategy to defense of others states of capacity to acts way beyond just the technical often solutions i mean this is international law or this is the norm is the rules of the roads and the states and many states for example the really in requirements to what was a really existing and making sure that this flow make sense for you and i you know one of the using the internet or not to you what's up in the industry who which are bullet butting in go off why because there was no international agreement where the intrusion into our look for our looks can we can we spot them and because of that

suddenly it's private companies but in legal that would decide the fates of the abilities of millions bryson what's the level of concern in the u.s. government and in the u.s. about former members of the n.s.a. being recruited by foreign governments or by foreign companies that have ties to foreign governments who would then use their expertise to target america and americans. i mean i don't i don't think that's an old concept machine that throughout the history of humankind where specialists and military or intelligence find their way in various private forms other places i think it is a bit disconcerting in this regard where those specialists or co-opted or willingly or unwillingly we we don't know the full story. to do things that were turned out zooms across that line. but it's not appropriate from

a spy perspective certainly in nicole's article she talks about the fact that when david salter the e-mails from that and 1st lady michelle obama come across the screen as an analyst that was that was a red flag that. really showed how far it had gone jake it looked like you wanted to jump in as well but i also want to ask you if there are any laws that prevent contractors from sharing spycraft expertise with foreign companies that have ties to foreign governments or with specifically foreign governments. well from a spy craft standpoint with direct work or foreign governments in the us you would have to register basically that you are in the cooperate a mood or supplying a foreign power from a contract stamp when it's not always clear you know who specifically you're working for and what the scope of that work is and in so you know if you look at

the story that nicole published you know in this case that wasn't direct government was direct work or any contractor who happened to then be working for that for the government for that matter you know the line between oftens and deepens and i think this is something that it's really important roasted to focus on is not always clear right so i'm we talk about you know spy craft in a sense do we mean as the subject we have the office of the office of techniques of compromising a target or are we talking about the analysis of that data which can have both oftens of a defensive uses and then of course there's a whole range of defensive capabilities as well again it's just not always clear where that line is so i think that's probably one of the biggest parts about the recruiting side i think most folks in you know in the u.s. who would be recruited for explicitly oftens of missions targeting folks back home in the u.s. would steer clear away from that but when it's not published clearly in those terms

and i think it becomes a much more stuff i want to take a step back and take a look at the kind of impact that cyber attacks could have on specific sectors in in any given country one type of cyber attacks that many might not be aware of our cyber attacks on hospitals and health organizations i'm asking you about this because you and the cyber peace institute of called for an end to coronavirus related cyber attacks you have asked governments around the world to take action how big a threat are these attacks how much are they happening and are governments taking action. the threat is going to be you know words with sir about it's the new friends it's been there for decades it's a career in teams that elite and at the peak of the pandemic and the 1st big 1st wave you could easily documents one back the date on hospital

if you will of our group and ring hospital once billy in the midst of an image to destroy all the computers and british shooting into the woods with rickerby differently but we go back to your questions not not to do the knowledge evil well as the problem for france it isn't that we would like the very day it was to do your professional of health or your patients your facing criminal groups that are trying to run somewhere your hospital to get money you are facing state that those that are performing cyber espionage includes who are targets that live and research center on the extreme you are facing the group between criminals and states which are launching misinformation can bring you live for you not to trust the word of doctors and more so it's quite a complex feel the difference is certainly exhilarating bryson from from your perspective what's the responsibility of governments to protect their societies from cyber attacks and to ensure that critical infrastructure is protected from

pacs and from cyber espionage. i think it is the prerogative of government i have been advocating the best way here or even more i think that the policy discussion has. been pulled straight so i look forward to being able to refocus that with the by the administration i think the appointment of the national soccer director which will have a high level position focused on stark security and specifically looking at these kinds of domestic issues which are back to what jake and i said earlier that he with public private partnership being a significant part of this government can't do this alone private industry can't do this alone in a step by noted the stakes are only getting higher as we cross from your desk your leads and the information age i think we've now reached this very specific tipping point in the information age where cyprus is going systems the fact that computers

are no longer about data but computers can now affect the physical world your critical infrastructure what's happening in a hospital where your water is coming from that's already by computers and so we now have serious risk of loss of white limb in consequence and we need to take that very seriously stefan i saw you nodding just now did you want to jump in as well. you know this is a very important conduit was just made because it does to the quality all that's for sure states cannot respond to that on the whom we support in the states are leading the way i mean it's maybe not be noone was tons of initiative volunteers the journalists the activists who are in your providing capacity or create in order to protect the some space to bring peace to the space who not in states to lead the world we do the convincing of of today in terms of how across these kind of private companies that can provide capacity to state to act basically anyone in the world this kind of rule can be. explained from the point of view

state that is just not not not ok not acceptable and model you could be looking to for this so states can do it and push it actors except to say that you like human will be there to support and help jake at the last few minutes we've heard about the role of civil society about the role of private enterprise you know how much responsibility does private enterprise have in all of this and especially in the u.s. going forward are we going to see more cooperation between companies and the government to ensure that infrastructure you know is more protected and that these kind of hacks can't happen going forward. sure i mean look the reality is that we live in it in a capitalistic society and the reality is well that unfortunately cybersecurity today if seen as a cost center and not a profit center and though and i guess technically that is true right it is a cost center on average care doesn't make money for the organization it's really

loss aversion and so you know one of the things that i think we're going to the is the need for i suspect all are not necessary and they resist by probably more regulation and very likely you know that specially the smaller small medium enterprise sizes i think we're going to need to start supplying you know some know how whether that through grants or assistance or whatever format takes to get some of these smaller organization you know up and running with cyber security the reality is that the small of the organizations play a role in some of the largest breaches that we see anecdotally a very large attack that we worked in my company last year against a very very large fortune 500 biomed you know organization the command and control was actually you know command of control over the incident was actually hitting off of a photography studio that had exactly one boy up with offer of a new york city and so this is the spot where this photography studio had basically

abandoned their web site had not dated it hackers compromise that and then use that as part of their app on the floor working via 100 biomet company and though really as we look at this it's going to have to be a you know really a partnership across the board we can't simply say as we do and so many regulations today you know in the u.s. that leads to say well you all does only applies you have you know if you're above a certain revenue target or above a certain number of employees we have to really look at sauber the entire ecosystem safad in your last answer you made mention of human rights activists specifically and i want to i want to dig a little deeper on that because time and again authoritarian regimes have increasingly used spyware to go after human rights defenders and activists is there a way to reduce the risk that they face. though the name of the service is true the canoe to. work an example of

a missile group with the spyware known the plague it was in the more than 100 victims over the past thermals who were 46 countries with journalist made activists . whether going on people in the in the words of the su tree because every little capacity to protect themselves if not a person to protect themself when they're high dogs as long as. 2 of those states most of these kids. only and birds that are the goop and check in little develop procure and syrup intrusion doors that are basically designed only to good human rights then then we have a systemic issue to be a mission of security and peace in the service of these bryson is there a chance that going forward we could potentially see governments coming together

attempting to protect themselves by entering into some type of cyber security treaties i mean this would be something similar to nuclear treaties between between countries do you think that's something that's within the realm of the possible. so we have the blueprint for what that would look like and that's called the taliban. and like so many things in the world it's you know it aggregate academic answer on paper and yet nobody has agreed to it in practice and we see the same issue here because. we see nation states wanting to preserve their rights to be able to respond or to advance their interests and of course cyber is what we're talking about here is only one part of how those national interests are foments that there are so many other levers of state i think what we're going to see is the internet as we've known it as aids korea and project it is dead that's not going to continue

we see authoritarian countries locking down their own internets and i think we're going to see is the world continue to at least buy a brigade and possibly break into small pieces of the internet and those smaller pieces will probably have a informal to formal recognition and some basic rights of what that means to be on the internet jake it looked again like you wanted to jump in so so let me ask you as well i mean you know are we going to see this type of thing going forward please go ahead and expand to the point that bryson was making if you like. you know i've had breakdowns right where we absolutely have the blueprint for this a that right as well that the you know we are going to see out of segmentation i believe at least of the global internet we've already been in china we're seeing authoritarian regimes both result in myanmar having off internet access to their own you know to their citizen and we also have the wealth at the limit even when the it's not cut off limiting what individuals can see in the i do expect that

that's going to be you know bifurcated but but separately from that a big problem that we have we had setting norms a lot of people like to compare the you know compare cyber to you know deterrence maybe in model the normal use that is in the nuclear age right the nuclear deterrent and cyber just doesn't work that same way and the reality is that if you know if we have some type of kinetic attack after abuse of that attack and if there was simple i mean the big thing that we lack in bombers today you good solid after lucian without knowing without being able to conclusively say this is who performed the attack it's very difficult to direct any one to unfortunate turns into a direct any countermeasures towards that group i mean we have several examples of cyber all flagged as we call them with adversaries intentionally misdirecting you know investigators and then of course there are probably a number of those that are successful that we just don't even know are all flags that i think until we fix the after vision problem i don't see how we get to

a i really a threat of cyber norms because how then will you actually enforce that stuff on how concerned are you that this all only gets worse going forward and and when we talk about potential worst case scenarios what would you envision. you know just a little what was certain terms of them would we need to. sort of use an i o. u.'s. this is a basic this deed is the existing international law applies in cyberspace it's we committed here and there's a set of norms that there's been a dog there to be a full inforced and they really believe we're going to because it will do the it is well and norm of oil and it's or law is violated nothing is happening in terms of the tradition we did are that we know what has been a tradition and it took 33 year of defeat you need 2 of capacity one of those 4 believes that that without order this is public in order to link the doc to

suffering in the law so that the public you and i if you want on this then what is that in and if he does continues down the road on the birth then we are facing recently or we're years is nearly years kettering of the nets yes the great the beast is going to be quite so quite complicated and the because of because in the symmetry between the wunderkind end of the day the films there are. all right we've run out of time so we're going to have to leave the discussion there thank you so much to all our guests jake williams safaga and bryce and board and thank you too for watching you can watch us program again anytime on al jazeera dot com ever further discussion go to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter we're at at a.j. inside story from image and from the whole team here i find out.

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