to the scholastic inquiry as to how the 1st amendment is applied in this chamber in this proceeding and so again you need to be focused on what's the law and then how do we apply it to the set of facts and so it's important to have that understanding that elected officials and fire chiefs are treated differently under 1st amendment law and those of the benefit of you all which is the benefit of us all because we do want you to be able to speak freely without fear that the majority party is going to come in and impeach you or come in and prosecute you to try to take away your seat where you sit now. it's just

after 2300 g.m.t. 6 pm in washington d.c. hello i'm in doha with continuing coverage of donald trump's 2nd impeachment trial if you're just joining us we're watching the day 4 of the trial the question and answer session is now well underway where u.s. senators get to question both sides in terms of the logistics of where these senators on allowed to ask their questions aloud instead they submit them in writing to senator leahy's presiding over this session and then he has his clerk read them out and answers the limited to 5 minutes each day troublous lawyers finished making their case for is innocence he was accused he's accused of course of causing many months and then on the 6th of january a deadly insurrection at congress they made their defense in under 4 hours that he did not incite the 6th of january riots we heard from trump's lawyer michael

vanderveen who said you can insights what was already going to happen his lawyers also argued that trump was exercising freedom of speech to declare that the election was fortunate and they accuse the democrats of hypocrisy and they played in the 11 minute video of their using the word fight early in the week we heard from the democrats who presented their case against trump saying he'd shown no remorse and could do the same again we can turn to our correspondent allen fish who is live for us in washington d.c. he's been watching this all very closely at and the question answer session has been has been under way a couple of hours now. after the defense concluded their case today in in about 3 hours or so what stood out to you. it's interesting that

there's a few things that been clarified one of the questions that has been asked several times to team is when did the president nor but the risk to mike pence and what action did you take to protect him and a couple of times he said he didn't know that timescale but then he said in an answer that don't trump was concerned about mike pence the reality is the president didn't speak to mike pence either on the day or for 5 days after that that was the level of his concern don't have been combative they've been argumentative they have accused the management team of all prosecuting prosecutorial misconduct on several occasions claiming that they have edited tapes when the themselves have done the exact same thing in their presentation of years wired's like hatred and anger and hypocrisy they've continued to push the idea that this is politically motivated and that there is the risk to the future of the united states as the public because in future the majority perp party will be able to impeach anyone

they want obviously those allegations completely disputed by the democrats and their team and they have also pointed out and quoted several times in republican congresswoman liz cheney who also voted for the impeachment of donald trump. i think that there's also a degree of confidence in donald trump's team because they are aware that at the moment the democrats don't have the votes they don't have 67 votes to carry the day that is why to a degree their defense was much shorter it was only 4 hours they argued on the points that 1st of all that the whole process was unconstitutional which is an order argument to take to the senate which is already voted on that they said that donald trump had not been given due process that there hadn't been a full investigation again that was disputed by the democrats and the say that anything. he said was protected by the 1st amendment and as you see they run an 11

minute video which had democrats cut together talking about fight the reality is of course that after none of those people who heard the democrats talking about fight then came to capitol hill or went to another location and started what was seen as a violent and selection trumps team did make a very good point during the question and answer session have been asked a few things about the process of them and how things are going and whether or not donald trump won the election they did make the point that doesn't really matter the charge in front of you is was don't trump guilty of incitement and in their view the don't think he was that is why they are calling for the acquittal of donald trump. like many thanks for that our correspondent allen there in washington let's turn to our guests richard lampitt is a distinguished university professor emeritus of nor. at the university of michigan he joins me by skype from washington d.c.

many thanks for speaking to us what do you make of the defense case today they had been criticized of having a very poor opening how do you think they performed. their case is a good one given what they want to do they want to appeal to donald trump they want to give cover to senators who are going to vote to acquit and would vote to acquit without any case and they want to appeal to trump space and those dimensions i think they've most likely succeeded but after the presentations when the fact checkers get busy when the lawyers get busy to analyze this i think you're going to find that the case contains a lot of dishonesty and it was full of irrelevancies everything about democratic senators or representatives using the word might have nothing to do with oh that trumps use of the word might have installed a riot i think are the question operandi bird is are distorts things when they talk

about due process and ignore the fact that due process is the process that is due and the process too in a teacher hearing is not the process that's due in a criminal trial the house is right this is not a criminal trial so. based on what they're him in for it's a strong case i think based on sort of a dispassionate legal analysis it's a weak one where in the middle of the question and answer session now it's been an ongoing africa vows about 2 hours left to go. and doesn't do you think it gives us an indication of whether. the senate says the republican senators who voted that the trial was constitutional will land on the final votes the conviction. well the only thing that gives you never say information from the questions is

something i find rather amusing which is that it seems obvious that a lot of these questions by both sides were rehearsed in advance with the lawyers who were answering them you'll notice that a number of lawyers will bring with them to the podium a written statement in the end i was just watching when reading almost word for word from what had been written down you can't do that and be ready to use it unless you know it's going to be and ask the advance so that friendliness are not a premise of the questions is a good clue to where the senators. are going to come out there are some senators like the question asked by a calm zimmer koski which are quite legitimate questions in which don't show a particular friendliness either side but i think the initial vote on actually whether you could try and president. after he left office even if he's been impeached before oftens tells you really come out and i do want to mention

something because i think the defense counsel distorted this time and time again oh when they talk about well anybody could be impeached you could prevent anybody from running the key thing is that the impeachment itself occurred while trump was president no one is arguing least the democrats aren't going to person could be impeach when they are not in office when it's not pretty now is the trial and the impeachment that is happening after he's left office numbers of lawyers including conservatives think this is constitutional and there are restorable examples of people who have been impeached while they've been in office and trying after they've left office but said get to get your thoughts we were be speaking to you again let's have the pets distinguish university professor emeritus from the university of michigan for now let's return back to double trump's impeachment

trial what grounds you can acquit. and so you have to look at. what they've put on in its totality and come to your own understanding used to whether you think they've met their burden to impeach but the original question is an absolutely slippery slope that i don't really think anybody here wants to send this country down thank you. mr president in a question to the desk. from the recently question to the desk

and i would note just for the. as the ari just tend to get late 'd i would note for all of. counsel as chief justice roberts noted on january 21st 2020 or so in the trial of charles floyd in 1905 of parties this chamber most refrain from using language that is not conducive to civil discourse with the. servant karl serve bet it has a question for the house managers and the clerk or read the question since the november election the georgia secretary of state the vice president and

other public officials withstood enormous pressure to uphold the law full lection of president biden and the rule of law what would have happened if these officials had bowed to the force president trump exerted or the mob that attacked the capitol .

house managers have 5 minutes. i want to take them in and remind everybody about the incredible pressure. that donald trump was putting on election officials in different states in this country and the intimidation that he was issuing and i want to remind everyone of the background of donald trump's call to one secretary of state the secretary of state from georgia. to raffensperger donald trump try to overturn the election by any

means necessary he tried again and again to pressure and threaten election officials to overturn the election results he pressured michigan officials calling them late at night and hosting them at the white house he did the same thing with officials in pennsylvania he called in to a local meeting of the pennsylvania legislature and he also hosted the host of them at the white house or he pressured them and in georgia it was even worse he sent tweet after tweet attacking the secretary of state until mr raffensperger got death threats to him and his family his wife got a text that said quote your husband deserves facing a firing squad firing squad for doing his job. mr raffensperger stood up to him he told the world that elections are the bedrock of this society and the votes were accurately counted for donald trump's opponent

officials like mr sterling warned trump that if this continued someone's going to get killed but donald trump didn't stop he escalated it even further he made a personal call you heard that call because it was recorded the president of the united states told a secretary of state that if he does not find votes he will face criminal penalties . please senators consider that for a 2nd the president putting all of this public and private pressure on election officials telling them that they could face criminal penalties if they don't do what he wants and not just any number of votes that he was looking for donald trump was asking the secretary of state to somehow find the exact number of votes donald trump lost the state by remember president biden won georgia by 11779

votes in his own words president trump said quote all i want to do is this i just want to find 11780 votes he wanted the secretary of state to somehow find the person or plus one of votes that he needed to win as a congress and as a nation we cannot be gnome to this conduct if we are and if we don't set a precedent against it more presidents will do this in the future this will be a green light for them to engage in that kind of pressure and that kind of conda and this could have gone a very different way if those election officials had bowed to the intimidation and the pressure of the president of the united states it would have meant that instead

of the american people deciding this election president trump alone would have decided this american election that's exactly what was its day and that's exactly what he was trying to do he intended wanted to and tried to overturn the election by any means necessary he tried everything else that he could to do when you started inciting the crowd issuing tweet after twee issuing commands to stop the cow stop the steel worked up the crowd sent a save the date. so it wasn't just one speech or one thing he was trying everything he was pressuring elected officials he was riling up his base telling him the election had been stolen from them that it had been stolen from him it was a combination of things that only donald trump could have done and for us to

believe otherwise is to think that somehow a rabbit came out of a hat and this mob just showed up here on their own all by themselves this is dangerous senators and the future of our democracy truly rests in your hands. mr president the senator from texas mr president i sent a question of this. the

server to texas mr corn and has a question for both the counsel for the former president and the house manager the clerk quote read the question and the. who recognize 1st because of for the former president the house managers have argued that if the senate cannot convict former officers then the constitution creates a january exception pursuant to which a president is free to act with impunity because he is not subject to impeachment conviction and remove all and or disqualification but isn't a president subject to criminal prosecution after he leaves office for acts committed in office even if those acts are committed in january.

the senator from texas this question raises a very very important point there is no such thing as a january exception to impeachment. there is only the text of the constitution which makes very clear that a former president is subject to criminal sanction after his presidency for any illegal acts he commits there is no january exception to impeachment there is simply a way we treat high crimes and misdemeanors allegedly committed by a president when he is in office impeachment and how we treat criminal behavior by a private citizen when they are not in office.

there's. thank you for this excellent question. wouldn't a president who decides to commit his crimes in the last few weeks in office by president trumped by inciting insurrection against the counting of electoral college votes be subject to criminal prosecution by the u.s. attorney for the district of columbia for example the department justice but of course he would be. but that's true of the president. regardless of when he commits his offenses in office in other words that's an argument for prosecuting him if he tried to stage an insurrection against the union in his 3rd year in office or a 2nd year in office you could say well he could be prosecuted afterwards the reason that the framers gave congress the house the power to impeach the senate the power to try convict remove in disqualify was to protect the republic it's not a vindictive power i know

a lot of people were very angry with donald trump about these terrible events that took place we don't come here in anger contrary to what you've heard today we come here in the spirit of protecting our republic and that's what it's all about but there january exception would essentially invite presidents and other civil officers to run rampant in the last few weeks in office on the theory that the house and the senate wouldn't be able to get it together in time certainly according to their demands for months and months of investigation wouldn't be able to get it together in time in order to vindicate the constitution that can't be right. that can't be right we know that the peaceful transfer of power is always the most dangerous moment for democracies around the world talk to the diplomats talk to the historians they will tell you that is a moment of danger that's when you get the coups that's when you get the insurrections that's when you get the seditious plots and you know what you don't

even have to read history for that you have to consult the framers you have to look around the world it just happened to us the moment when we were just going to collect the already certified electoral college votes from the states by the popular majorities within each state except for maine and nebraska which do it by congressional district as well as state wide but otherwise it's just the popular majorities in the states and we're about to certify it and we got hit by a violent insurrectionary mob don't take our word for it listen to the tapes unless they're going to claim those are fabricated too and the people are yelling this is our house now and where are the black votes them and show us the votes except for a thank you. event gertie later. mr president. it's my understanding there are no further questions on either side.

of a good leader that's correct on oh no further questions on our so i ask unanimous consent that the time for questions and answers be considered expired. now mr president i ask unanimous consent that it in order for myself and senator mcconnell through speak for up to one minute each and then it be in order for me to make unanimous consent to request as if in legislative session the objection so ordered the search for new thank you mr president and mr president in a moment i will ask the senate to pass legislation that would award capitol police officer eugene goodman the congressional gold medal. in the weeks after the attack on january the 6th the world learned about the incredible incredible bravery of officer goodman on that fateful day here in this trial we saw a new video powerful video showing calm this under pressure his courage in the line

of duty his foresight in the midst of chaos and his willingness to make himself a target of the mobs rage so that others might reach safety officer goodman is in the chamber tonight officer goodman thank you thank you. thank you why is . it. ok mr greenwood of

a good leader mcconnell ok whole i just want to say i think we can all agree that eugene goodman deserves the highest honor congress can be stow but i just before we move to pass this legislation i want to be clear. that he was not alone that day the nation saw and has now seen numerous examples of the heroic conduct of the capitol police the metropolitan police the swat teams that were with us on january 6th here in the capital protecting us our heartfelt gratitude extends to each and every one of them particularly now as members of the force continue to bear scarse seen and unforeseen from the events of that disgraceful day let us give them all the honor and recognition they so justly deserve thank you

all was a little thank a friend on the republican leader pleasure to join the majority leader's request january search was a day of fear for those who work here in the capitol and of no sure many more watching from afar but that awful day also introduced our nation to a group of heroes whom we and congress were already proud to call our callers and to whom we owe a great dirt. in the face of lawlessness the officers of the u.s. capitol moved out to full search of their oaths if not for the quick thinking and

bravery of officer using goodman in particular people in this chamber may not have escaped. unharmed. oh sure goldman's actions to reflect their deep personal commitment to duty and brought even greater destruction upon all those brave brothers and sisters in uniform sob proud to shudder to struggle for recognizing his her as i'm with a dollar we can bestow. of the top of the one mr president as if in legislative session i ask unanimous consent that the committee on banking housing and urban affairs be discharged from further consideration of s. $35.00 and then at the senate proceed to its immediate consideration the defection

of the current code point as 35 a bill to award a congressional gold medal to officer eugene goodman. of jackson the committee is just charge. in the proceeds to the measure mr president i ask unanimous consent that the van hollen substitute amendment which is at the desk be considered an agreed to the bill as amended be considered read a 3rd time and passed and the motions to reconsider be considered made and laid upon the table. now mr president i ask unanimous consent the trial adjourned until 10 am tomorrow saturday february 13th and that this also constitute the adjournment of the senate. and we are. ok if you're just joining us we've been watching live day for donald trump's

impeachment trial the question answer session has just concluded where u.s. senate got to question both sides. on the debate earlier today of course we have from trump's lawyers they made the case for his innocence in under 4 hours. where of course trump was accused of causing many months as well as on january 6th the deadly insurrection congress. lawyer michael vanderveen said you can incite what was already going to happen his lawyers also argued that trump was exercising freedom of speech to declare the election forward and they accuse the democrats of hypocrisy and played an 11 minute video of them using the word fight saying the issue was with how it had been put together we also had to have the end there that the.