the 2 sides have been talking about how many witnesses to have and the reports are that it may be somewhere between $5.10 but that's about the size of the witness list that i would be expecting i also expect that there may be some announcement about ground rules and also timing when those witnesses are going to be called and is there an amount of time that will be set for each side to call witnesses a certain amount of time either per witness or collectively for all the witnesses that each side gets to call together chlamydia all of that change once we start hearing from witnesses if one says well i heard x. y. is that from someone else. i very much hope that they will have those flexible rules because as they start calling witnesses as you suggest there may be a need to call yet further witnesses there will be people who come out of the

woodwork in effect new witnesses that we understand were in the room with donald trump or with other individuals who spoke with donald trump that day that seems to be the gist of what they are calling witnesses for however there are other questions that may also get raised such as why was the national guard not called out this these reports about rumors circulating in the dark recesses of the web about whether or not nancy pelosi had a hand in calling off capitol police or preventing them from being called if they decide to put nancy pelosi understand that she will no doubt point to other possible witnesses who will bear out her side of the story and so on so with each witness that is call. the defense team will have a problem because there will be other witnesses that will be suggested and those

witnesses will undoubtedly help to get at the truth if enough of them are paul that's why witnesses are so important and why i have been calling for witnesses myself in an op ed that i wrote with richard painter that was published this morning and for the past several days it is critical to get at the truth as any trial prosecutor or defense attorney knows to have witnesses on the various questions that they're going to be debating what is the possibility claire that the shall we call it circle of legal liability could widen him depending on what we hear from witnesses maybe the new charges maybe all those might be facing some accuse ations or charges. exactly i think that that will almost certainly happen because the more that we learn about how the events on the 6th of january

shaped up the more individuals are implicated and the more we learn about the level of advanced planning that is one point that the defense team may have scored here which is to say look how could donald trump's speech on the 6th of january have incited the rioters when there was so much advanced planning that went into this that's coming out and charging documents and another documents from the d.o.j. that it's very clear that there was extensive extensive planning that went into this on the part of the far right wing militia groups like the oath keepers and that and then needs to be explained if in effect the violence was planned in advance what how did donald trump see his speech on the 6th could it have incited individuals who were already planning on violence does

that take any of the onus off donald trump now you would think if there's any real defense there that the defense team would want to put on witnesses to bear out that argument and i think the answer that will come out if witnesses are called is that it was a little bit of both there was enormous advance planning donald trump's entire pattern of behavior from after the point that it immediately after the point it was clear that he had lost the election several days after the vote all the way up through the 6th was one big pattern of incitement but in a real criminal trial that would have to be borne out piece by piece with witnesses and what is the possibility that this might right now looking at a senate trial it's a possibility this might spur legal action in other legal venues and other courts. as i wrote in my op ed that i published with richard painter i think there is a criminal case that could be made out here there's

a concept called solicitation that donald trump was in effect soliciting individuals to engage in violence by violently marching on the capitol and there's also the concept of conspiracy which can cast a very wide net but the only way that donald trump himself could get investigated for a crime i believe would be if a special counsel were to be appointed i do not think that this is something that merrick garland could himself undertake but for sure america arlen is going to be looking at the evidence that is provided and at the witnesses who who speak to think about the question of whether or not he can bring charges or whether or not it would make sense for him or for the president to appoint an independent counsel to run these events down to the ground and really investigate many have called for a $911.00 type commission and i myself believe that that would be extremely

appropriate in this case because the facts are extremely complex and a few days of summary from each side here in an impeachment trial really doesn't get it all that we need to know about what happened in the run up to the 6th of january. as far as we can tell the votes still not there for an impeachment of donald trump right at this point right and most yet so what part of the defense team's job to you looks like making a legal defense and what part of it looks like making a defense in the court of public opinion. that's an excellent question well 1st of all most concerning lee mitch mcconnell has already come out and said that he does not believe that he can support conviction something he had sort of dangled previously and suggested that he might vote in favor of conviction and what he's

falling back on is this jurisdictional argument that a president who is no longer in office should not be tried and convicted he he is saying that ship has sailed so really any senator who decides to vote on jurisdictional grounds i think is. is ducking the issue but to your question. i think that the defense team will have to start addressing this a little bit more like a legal case because unlike the last impeachment the charge against donald trump incitement to insurrection is very very close to a number of things that could be charged as a federal crime now one of the members of the defense team i believe it was proof's castor said in his 1st remarks oh well go ahead and arrest donald trump if you think that's appropriate but he shouldn't be. impeached because he's no longer

president he shouldn't be convicted on the impeachment because he's no longer president i think he's sort of eating his words at this point because the more evidence is provided the more the chances of this turning into a criminal inquiry in some forum increase and of course there is already an investigation a criminal investigation that's been opened in georgia with regard to president trump's halt to secretary of state wrappings berger and the pressure that he put on rathbun's berger to change the certification of the vote in georgia so i think the chances are increasing especially with the possibility now that there could be fairly extensive witnesses call that criminal charges will indeed be filed ultimately. all right thanks so much good to have your analysis on that one claire finkelstein thank you. sco back now to alan fischer there he is in the

capital alan. they were supposed to what 8 minutes ago reconvene they haven't what's happening. according to the pool that's over there which represents all the media here because obviously because of coverage restrictions and also security restrictions there's a limited number of people are a load around the senate chamber or what the pool is reporting is that they are very close to a deal or no witnesses and what will happen is that the report of the conversation that jimmy herrera butler had with kevin mccarthy will be entered into the congressional record without objection so that means that comes part of the formal proceedings but there will be new witnesses called they will then move on to 2 hours each of closing arguments and then at some point late on saturday we will have a vote on whether or not to impeach. donald trump i've just seen

a tweet that says that joe mitchell who is regarded as a very moderate democrat from west virginia he has said that a deal has actually been reached so it seems that we're moving towards a resolution that we are not going to get witnesses despite all the excitement of the last couple of hours but this controversial phone call that was reported by jimmy you're a butler congresswoman from the state of washington will be entered into the congressional record and then we just move forward as if the last couple of hours haven't really happened this is been exciting turn after exciting turn so let's just take a moment just for me to recap what i think you just said allen so after we were on the edge of our seat for the last couple of hours with the surprise move by the u.s. senate when the motion passed. with the support of some republican senators to call witnesses they went into recess and now we think after all of that

they're not going to call any witnesses the simply going to get the record of a phone conversation which sparked or added wood to the fire of calls for calling witnesses they're going to get that record simply submit it into the record and then what we get back to wrapping this up on saturday is that we're talking about an hour that's that that's exactly how know if what the pool is saying is correct i have no reason to doubt them the very good journalists there right there the senate chamber there speaking to people is the come and go they're working their sources but we all are at the moment i texted someone on the democratic side and said what's going on and they responded with an image of that looks like that they really don't know so these discussions have been going on for some time but according to the pool it looks as if there will be no witnesses called no you'll

know that certainly mitch mcconnell who's the leader of the republicans in the senate was expecting to go to a vote today he said before he went into the chamber look this is a matter of conscience but he thinks that he didn't quite join up the dots to link donald trump to be the one article of impeachment which of course is incitement of the crowd here on january the 6 we had gone trump's lawyers 1st of all complained of the democratic side were even calling for witnesses even though this was the point in the proceedings where if you were going to have witnesses it's where you approach the senate and say please can we have a vote on that issue and he was saying how he was going to subpoena hundreds of people doesn't work like that again he was showing slightly that this is all new to him he is of course not he called situational lawyer but a personal injury lawyer from philadelphia or to use his own phrase philadelphia. certainly the senate don't want this to drag on too long chuck schumer who's the leader of the democrats in the senate had said he was open to the idea of witnesses

if the house managers wanted them but he was really hoping to get this done quickly that there's a big legislative agenda for joe biden sitting there it includes $1.00 trillion dollars for covert relief which is going to go through the house and the senate will probably hit the senate somewhere in the next 2 to 3 weeks there is also a number of cabinet positions still to be filled not least the attorney general merrick garland has still to get his confirmation hearing that's due to happen february 22nd then there there is the whole question of immigration which joe biden said he wants to address in a bill that will go to the house and then to the senate and he wants to do this while he has political capital he knows that as your president it's a bit like a car coming off the forecourt you begin to depreciate and he really wants to get these things done quickly so he can build up to the mid terms and 2022 yes we're

already talking about them so both sides would really like this to be done sooner rather than later and if there is an agreement that they can enter this report of the phone call from jimmy herrera butler entered the record rather than spend several days the putting witnesses then that seems to be something that both republicans and democrats will be happy with and to be honest trump's team will be quite happy as well because there have been fractures there tensions between them and so the sooner this gets done on the shed all that they thought they were dealing with the probably the better it probably is for them ted cruz republican senator from texas he has been saying that it was leftist twitter that forced the house managers into this that they were outraged over night that they hadn't called witnesses. some interesting take i suppose but he. i was one of those that had been advising the trump team over the last couple of days and he

suggests that this is going to be done by the end of today there will be 50 p. thinks his current $55.00 votes to impeach to convict. which would be enough you could get 672 thirds majority in the senate then alan we've got to ask here what is happening or happened on the democrat side because let's remember how this started today we weren't sure whether there was going to be a real big push by the impeachment managers for witnesses or not then we saw jamie raskin come in the lead impeachment manager and he made that call and the motion passed and now apparently they've done a deal what is happening on the democrat side why this back and forth over whether to call witnesses on what is the calculus there. or this all goes back to at the end of business on friday there were 2 reports chemo 1st of all someone close to my parents said that don't trump's lawyer had lied when he said that the president was concerned about my pain safety that's not something that anyone their own might

pinch recognize about the events of january the 6th and in fact donald trump took 5 days before he got in touch with mike pence to find to talk term after what happened here on the capitol and you remember the pictures of mike pence being ushered don't by his security detail and not only mike pence but his family and they were very much at risk from a crowd coming round the capitol building saying they were going to hang pains then there was this phone call between kevin mccarthy and donald trump which is a public ng congresswoman said kevin mccarthy spoke about afterwards the very tense words between kevin mccarthy and donald trump particularly when it came to kevin mccarthy asking donald trump to call his supporters away from the capitol and then suggesting that they were more concerned about the election result and some republicans in congress to which kevin mccarthy. we responded with a couple of expletives so they became part of the record of reporting after

business on friday and so 1st thing on saturday the democrats decided that this was an avenue that had to be explored and essentially to be put on the record and they wanted to do that by calling witnesses it would have slowed and slowed the whole process up it would probably not have changed many views of those who were going to vote anyway but they decided that for the historical record and to put this in front of the american people this had to be done so that is why the house impeachment managers remember what independently from the democrat leadership in the senate decided to call witnesses and that's why they put that forward at the point they were meant to put forward the senate voted but no if there has been an agreement than that we no need for those witnesses to be called and instead what we will see is 2 hours of debate on the summing up we're told that the trumpet you might not need its full 2 hours and then the senate will go to a vote so there's still the possibility i would see looking at the pool reports

distinct possibility that this is going to be done and dusted by the end of the day or right thanks so much alan fischer there let's continue this go to andy gallacher is watching this of course from west palm beach in florida and the this report now apparently that a deal may be in the making so that they don't call witnesses after everything we've been hearing and covering for the last 2 hours another u. turn maybe there will not be witnesses called to this senate trial and instead. req holds simply records being submitted into the congressional record what are you hearing from team trump there. well i mean as has been the case for the last few days nothing it seems that the president when he hired his defense lawyers made a deal with them this is the reporting i'm hearing that he stayed quiet during this

entire thing and this is of course the longest period in don't sumps life that he stayed this quiet for this long during his 1st impeachment trial if he was on twitter and in just one day tweeted that 140 times all right sorry and they were going to jump in here and let's listen then because the senate is picking up again for. majority leader. story. no president it's a canister i'm sorry. yes you are you are recognized. senators. on. donald john trump by his counsel is prepared to stipulate that if he if representative herrera butler were to testify under oath as part of these proceedings her testimony would be consistent with the statement she issued on feb 12th 2021 and the former

president's counsel is agreeable to the admission of that public statement into evidence at this time. caster. thank you mr president. the managers are prepared to enter into the agreement i will now read the statement. this is the statement congresswoman jamie herrera butler february 12 2021. in my january trolls statement in support of the article of impeachment i referenced a conversation house minority leader kevin mccarthy relayed to me that he'd had with president trump while the january 6th attack was ongoing here the details when mccarthy finally reached the president on january 6th and asked him to publicly and forcefully call off the riot the president nisha initially repeated the falshood that it was empty for that had breached the capitol mccarthy refuted that and told

the president that these were trumped supporters that's when according to mccarthy the president said well kevin i guess these people are more upset about the election than you are since i publicly announce my decision to vote for impeachment i have shared these details in countless conversations with constituents and colleagues and multiple times to the media and other public forums i told it to the daily news of longview on january 17th i've shared it with local county republican executive board members as well as other constituents who asked me to explain my vote i shared it with thousands of residents on my telephone town hall on february 8th. mr president i now move that the senate admit the statement into evidence junction that we are jackson in the us

they will be admitted into evidence and those either party wish to vacate a further motions related to witnesses or documents at this time mr president the president's counsel have no further motions. discussed and mr president we have no further motions either. in the chair would note that neither party wishes to make further motions under section 6. resolution 47. therefore the next question is on admission of the evidence submitted by both parties pursuant to section 8 of the resolution image order leaders right now as we move to another matter i'm advised that the house managers have no objection to the admission of evidence proposed to be

admitted by the former president's counsel under the provisions of section 8 of senate resolution $47.00 and that the president's counsel have no objections to the evidence proposed to be admitted into evidence by the house managers pursuant to section 8 of the resolution as agreed to by leader mcconnell and myself a few days ago both parties have made timely filings of this evidence with the secretary of the senate and of provided copies to each other i therefore ask unanimous consent that the senate dispense with the provisions of section a day of senate resolution $47.00 and that the material submitted by both parties be admitted into evidence subject to the provisions of section 8 c of that resolution which provides that the admission of this evidence does not consist constitute a concession by either party as to the truth of the matter is asserted by the other party and that each senator shall decide for him or herself the weight to be given such evidence this request has the approval of both parties and the republican

leader without objection is so ordered. pursuant to the provisions of the senate resolution $47.00 the senate has provided for up to 4 hours of closing arguments will be equally divided between the managers of the pride of the house of representatives and the counsel for the former president and pursuant to room 22 of the rules of procedure and practice in the senate when sitting on impeachment trials the argument should be open and closed on the part of the house representatives to the. chair recognizes mr manager asked to begin the presentation on the part of the house of representatives was harassed given to route 20 to him

a reserved time if you wish thank you mr president members of the senate. before i proceed it was suggested by defense counsel that donald trump's conduct to during the attack as described in congressman butler statement is somehow not part of the constitutional offense for which former president trump has been charged i want to reject that falsehood in that fallacy immediately after he knew that violence was underway at the capitol president trump took actions that further incited the insurgents to be more inflamed and to take even more extreme selective in focus to action against vice president mike pence former president trump also as described by congressman

butler's notes refuse requests to publicly immediately and forcefully call off the riots and when he was told that the insurgents inside the capitol were trump supporters the president said quote well kevin i guess these people are more upset about the election then you are. think about that for a 2nd this one contradicted statement that has just been stipulated as part of the evidence for a record the president said well kevin i guess these people meaning the mobsters the insurrectionists are more upset about the election than you are. that conduct is obvious we part and parcel of the constitutional offense that he was impeached for namely incitement to insurrection that is continuing

incitement to the insurrection the conduct described not only perpetuated his continuing offense but also provides to us here today further decisive evidence of his intent to incite the insurrection in the 1st place where my opposing counsel says that you should ignore the president's actions after the insurrection began that is plainly wrong and it of course reflects the fact that they have no defense to his outrageous scandalous and unconstitutional conduct in the middle of a violent assault on the capital that he incited centers think about it for a 2nd say you light a fire and you're charged with arson and the defense counsel says everything that why did after the fire started 0 event in the court would reject that i mean they said that's not true at all it's extremely relevant to whether or not you committed

the crime if you run over and try to put out the flames if you get lots of water and say help help there's a fire you call for help a court will infer that it could infer that you didn't intend for the fire to be lit in the 1st place they would accept your defense perhaps that it was all an accident was an act in accidents happen with fire but if on the other hand when the fire ups you go and you poor fuel on it you stand by and you watch it gleefully any reasonable person will infer that you not only intended the fire to start but that once it got started in begin to spread you intended intended to continue to keep the fire going. and that's exactly where we are my friends of course your conduct while the crime is ongoing is relevant to your culpability both to the continuation of the offense

but also directly relevant directly illuminating to what your purpose was originally what was your intent in any court in the land would laugh out any would laugh out of court any criminal defendant who said what i did after i allegedly killed that person is irrelevant to whether or not i intended to kill them i mean come on donald trump's refusal not only to send help but also to continue to further incite the insurgents against his own vice president his own vice president provides further decisive evidence of both his intent to start this violent insurrection and his continued incitement once the attack had begun to override the capitol or 8 senators.

that was in response to this new evidentiary particle that came in but i in my closing i want to thank you for your remarkable attention and your seriousness of purpose but fitting your office we have offered you overwhelming and irrefutable and certainly unrefuted evidence that former president trump incited this insurrection against us to quote the statement representative liz cheney made in january quote on january 6th 2021 a violent mob attacked the united states capitol to obstruct the process of our democracy and stop the counting of presidential electoral votes this insurrection caused injury death and destruction in the most sacred space in our republic she continued representatively continued much more will become clear in coming days and weeks but what we know now is enough the president the united states summon this mob assembled this mob.