as you may not have seen that occurred. during this time did you make any noise or visions or notations of notes about. mr ford's characteristics of his breathing. terrible question your obvious or over. during the incident when you were there did you make some observations of the characteristics of mr ford's breathing that concerned you. i don't remember anymore . what is what is meant by the term british thing or agonal breath a little gas. we see here and patients that are dying or pretty much dead it's just kind of the bodies. they give you i don't i don't quite know but it's the side of death and if you've seen that in other calls when you've been working yes and did you see something similar in mr

floyd i don't remember any more but i. saw during that time period. he. did not regain consciousness but you saw. and you stayed with him or i'm sorry you. were there as the entire time until he was loading the ambulance correct correct. and. at some point you made.

well i guess the question is this. you didn't pay close attention to mr floyd at some point because you knew he was unconscious. needing medical attention there was no question there. and based on that. you focused more in trying to get the officers to allow you to help guard at some point did you start your recording yeah you're right yes. with your phone i assume yes and why did you do that. it was i'm not sure why you chose to do it it's an instinct. and so you did reported yesterday and that. well i guess i'll just ask you this way at some point after the incident you were interviewed by law enforcement officers. at. the b.c.s.

correct yes and you made that video available to them correct correct. and. you know why did you think it was important to record that. because. memories of witness is art. that bird might be as good as a video and so you want to have it to preserve. it wasn't conscious but i'm sure that's why anybody takes a video. and. sorry bear with me a 2nd to remember. after

recording that video. you. stopped recording at some point correct and aren't very. obvious if you did stop at some point and. and and and eventually the ambulance took mr floyd away. and then earlier i said we'd come back to that moments in the previous video and exhibit a lot and when you were in the ambulance left and you were still standing on the sidewalk. yes yes and we saw you just standing there. what's going through your mind as you're standing there. i don't i'm not scared i think i probably was just leave. and in shock yes and what's. and at some point.

did you also. make a 911 call yes. and. it had to be. sort of distressing was the word your years before i jump when you're there and you're trying to help and couldn't your feeling of helpless. yes absolutely were you upset about that yes did you feel that. you know whatever the end result you could have tried to help. them think. well why did you feel helpless because. there is me and me kill the and i. would have had i had i had access to a call similar to that. i would have been able to provide.

medical attention to the best of my abilities and. this human was denied that right. and so from that point. you know we saw you standing there on the sidewalk. standing still. yes and from there did you. stay in the area for a little while yes and in some point you made a 911 call yes why of the point did you call 911. i think it all settled in that i wish they would have done that immediately because . it was ridiculous that 17 station inspired station 17 was as close as it was. and that they hadn't been there i

should've called my mind mediately but i didn't and when things calm down i realized that our i wanted. them to know what was going on i want to basically report it. and so you made that call correct correct and. more than a minute long at some point they wanted to transfer you to a supervisor correct i asked that and but then the call it's ok do you remember why you call him that at that point. i don't know exactly but there was kind of a lot going on. i was still worried about the witnesses on c.n.n. . particularly because they were people of color and black men i was worried about their safety. and their officers still on scene but also the fire came

on and it may have been that i ended the call because my coworkers were there and i could tell them what was going on so tell us about that some some point when you're there at the scene instilled in a fire truck come yes and they're coming to respond to the call there during the respond to the call. and they went in to cut through it stacks they look for a victim. which is unique for that. there to be that much miscommunication so let me ask you a different question so when they came. those firefighters did you know that i knew 2 of them and how many total came for driver 2 firefighters and captain so the 2 that you knew how did you know that. crossing paths at work so they knew

who you were yes so you knew that members of the fire department knew you were on scene as well yes but off duty of course yes. and. and so what you had a conversation with them while they were there a conference yes you also had some conversations with other people who were stuck around afterwards yes and to the driver and the other other firefighter that were. back. also spoke to them. i have no further questions or. it's really. really just their spirits a place to live. we've been listening there to genevieve hanson an off duty firefighter who is currently

fighter but she was off duty on the day of the events were not told floyd was killed she. happened to walk past the scene and noticed she said that the officers were leaning over his body and they appeared to they appear to have a majority of their weight over mr ford she described a situation where he she identified herself and realized that he needed medical assistance she is medically trained as a 1st responder he was being restrained she said but he wasn't moving he looked puffy and swollen and he wasn't responding in the way that he ought to have been to having someone's. neck knee on his neck and he she described her office to show in his appearing to be comfortable with his knee on his neck she became tearful when she remembered that she was not allowed to help and that the offices did not allow her access to the scene to provide 1st medical assistance and she described him as

someone who was denied. medical assistance he was a human he was denied the help that she could have given had she been allowed on to the scene that's bring in gabriel is on there while we wait to before the defense starts to cross-examine her again it's been a quite a day for some. very moving witness testimony hasn't it. it certainly has i mean after you watched some of this testimony today you sort of sit back and you sort of say wow this is what the prosecution is trying to do they're trying to paint a picture of that very traumatic scene 10 months ago and they are certainly doing that genevieve hansen the off duty firefighter that was just testifying now is an incredibly important it's certainly this trial that we're going to take it back to the scene there is a follow up question for you thank you for being here with us today. you testified

that you've been a firefighter now for 2 years approximately and i see you're wearing your uniform today. and that would be like your dress uniform or your class a uniform that's common to wear when you testified in court fair to say that you were not wearing your class a or any uniform on may 24th 2008. being a firefighter is a stressful job. you testified about your experience as an e.m.t. we didn't talk much about your firefighter training so you said you went through a 4 month academy correct right and in that academy i assume you learn the basics of fire right correct different types of backdraft. how to approach a fire how do you know where to aim the hose. yes but fire fire

right so it's something sometimes probably going to come from the top down or from the bottom up right i very differently right and you learn about like going into a burning building right then. being safe being cautious. it's a again part of what you have to learn. yes how to deal with the stress of being a drop of being a firefighter. do they do you either in the academy or in your. continuing training do you have. trainings that focus on how to deal with the physical reaction to stress. we need to go over that in our training in this throughout the continuing

also i. injured student or not for the job. takes a certain type of person to do the job right. but breathing becomes important right right you put on an oxygen tank a mask yet you've got to know how to breathe properly control your breathing and sometimes you may go into a situation it's not totally on fire and may not have your mask on you're running up stairs to get to save someone's life again controlling your brief right and you learn about. do you have you ever heard the term tunnel vision as a part of fire training. not just areas that. certainly it's a fire training but you know. so when you're stressed you kind of focus on a particular thing right and you kind of changes your peripheral vision and you become hyper focused right. so you're familiar with that and you may have

experienced that in the context of your fire fight it's. obviously and unfortunately i'm assuming that sometimes you're not able to save every right and that there's a level of trauma that comes with that. sometimes depending on the circumstances and. you. also testified that you have both a national and state certification as an e.m.t. right. not since for emergency medical technician that's basic 1st responders stuff right. medical training for 1st responders. i don't know if that there's an arm more basic i mean i think the police officers are not rich the medical technicians but then it's not as high as like a paramedic correct so a paramedic has even more training than an e.m.t.

yes right and obviously maybe the c.p.r. you learned to become a lifeguard was last less intensive than what it took to become an e.m.t. . i took it. seriously because i was practicing in the end but it's. the same. but in your empty training you also learn like term mechanics and splinting and i guarantee you if all of these sort of assessment and. emergency 1st response of care ok. and you testified that you because you've only been a firefighter for 2 years you've been in several burning buildings correct now have you ever been in a burning building or outside let's say you're outside let me ask you a hypothetical question you're outside of a burning building and your spraying the hose on the fire. has anyone

ever tried to come up to you and say you're doing it wrong. do you think that. has anyone ever stopped to film you to when you're fighting a fire gets so you see someone you're fighting the fire and someone starts to film you does not i'm sorry are. up to each other i did. it's not just yeah it's you know it's it's not a normal yet all we get we all started talking at one time and so it's it's unusual but i'm sorry and i'll try to slow down. so you're fighting a fire right and you may notice a citizen filming what your doing. correct and that would not necessarily interfere with your ability to fight a fight not. have you ever had a citizen start to yell at you while you're fighting

a fire. do you think it would make your job training the fire harder if someone sort of yelling at you and tell you that you were doing it wrong i'm very confident in the training that i've been given so. i i would not be concerned about somebody that was not trained to the extent i have been and i would can you have a different way i would write but do you think it would be distracted. what if there were 12 people yelling at you and telling you that you were doing it i think . a burning structure in a city where there are buildings and homes and people living on either side is much more concerning than 20 people trying to tell me to do something different but you wouldn't be distracted by that at all but if they started calling you names.

like i said i know my job and i know i would be confident in doing my job and there's nothing anybody can say that would destroy me. so what if they started to physically threaten you. i'll repeat myself because i'm confident in my job and what i do and what needs to be done and my training so i would continue to do that . what what is he doing what does it mean when a fire department stages of an incident there. it's always different but we can stage to wait for someone to stats what's exactly going on how we need to tackle that particular call. so let's assume there's a call and the police are on scene at the call right and they are leaving saturday at that time in about a medical call we staged a different sure let's let's leave it as a medical. and there are some trouble at the scene does

do you just come right in into that emergency call or does fire stage until the police clear the scene we stage and wait for police to get caught for. the i mean it's all clear. right so in a situation where there is trouble and the police are dealing with that trouble and they know they need a medical personnel to come into the scene medical won't come into the scene until it is called code for right. and. you said in your experience you've been on numerous calls throughout the 2 years you've been a fire right. and. what would you agree that a fair number of those may have been calls that started out as were the police responded 1st. so it's usually the police that are there 1st they do some assessment and they

will call for medical care have you ever been called to a scene where the police didn't call you. when meaning the police were present and they weren't the ones i called. to make sure it's a little confusing police go to a scene right and whatever's happening at the scene and they just don't ever call for medical even though there's a medical situation well i wouldn't know that is that me that wasn't called precisely right so if you will go to a scene it's because you're responding to a call. and the reason that you are there is because the police call you. if that's what it sounds thing right if the police are. and so in a situation where you see someone having a medical emergency right. wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the police had

already called for matter. it would also be reasonable to assume that if that was cuffed and asked him in a cut and i see injection non-response you. root for the cause in the answer the question would be that it's a yes or no question that. it's reasonable to assume that if a patient is having a medical emergency and the police are present that they have called for us. your copy your question is unclear because you don't know my job so. cancer sure so let's let's make this seem right may 25th 2020 you walk upon a scene you see someone having a medical emergency. you did not call 911 to get the medics

there right around would it have been reasonable to assume that medics had already been called based on what you saw when you 1st arrived yes and in fact paramedics did respond. you saw the ambulance come up yes that's not their normal response time ok and so you noticed there was some abnormal response time for medics racing and i also noticed that that is precisely the kind of call that fire would respond to and station 17 is just a couple blocks away ok so. do officers on scene decide do we call for medical or fire. i don't believe so i believe that's dispatch i believe they call for medical. so if if action police call. dispatch and they say we need to e.m.'s code 3 it's dispatcher who decides to we send medics

or fire. well it would be medic it would be fire with medics not just fire. i don't know the answer to that for. that also mean we medics did a rock. right. yeah mentally. and you have no frame of reference of when police called paramedics do you. no but i don't know how long it takes for medics to get calls typically and i know how long it takes to get 3 blocks and emergency fire vehicle but presume that presumes that the fire vehicle was not on another call right it would have been a different station that was we would then nearest their nearest to other stations would have been able to respond i caught 3 minutes so if you 1st walked on scene.

i think 2629 was what we just saw in the 629. and paramedic and paramedics paramedics had been called at 821. that's an abnormal response time based on your experience when did you say. 2629. and the and the medics arrived at one time the medics were called $21.00. code 3. i don't believe that. but again you have no frame of reference right. i mean you've not seen any police reports you've not looked at the cabs you've not heard the 911 calls you didn't listen to dispatch that night that night no not that night but i that totally abnormal and fire would have been added to that call because we go to calls like

that all the time right and so it was abnormal it would be completely and totally abnormal your experience for it to take that long to get to the scene absolutely. and. are you familiar with the term load and go yes and i believe you had a conversation with the b.c. agents shortly after this incident and you describe. what you observed as far as the paramedics doing was what's called the loading go. and the and that is essentially if i as i understand it paramedics arrive some something is amiss at the scene so we put them into the ambulance and we move the ambulance to another safe location. and that's what you observed here.

and that's because there were quite a few people and those people were all fairly upset right. and so in your mind as a paramedic with the experience of unity i'm sorry as an e.m.t. i apologize but as an e.m.t. you've done loading goes before we have done what it does. and so the reason that the medics did not commence at least as far as you understood commence resuscitative efforts for mr floyd was because they were doing a load and go get him away. that's what you told the age of 3. i don't remember it got ready early age and that what it looked like let it go ok. now. in terms of. your again personal experience.

or excuse me on that day you were to the paramedics drove off and then at some other point. a couple minutes later is when the truck the fire truck arrives right right and that's how i knew there was something wrong when requesting medical assistance ok because the pair of the fire department showed up food and the ambulances are left and gone to another location no more because the fire fired it whether it's 17 very different station. would have been able to respond to that call much sooner than medics were. so in that he. knew you kind of formed that opinion on that day that there were some miscommunication between medics and

fire police. right which. i mean not to the fault of medics or fire it's we get a call and we go so it was it was police and dispatch that that miscommunication would come. and again that 5 or 6 minute delay is just unheard of in your experience. yes. and not by medics but backfires if they. are you trained as an e.m.t. in the use of mark him yes there you can you explain what mark and generally yes it is an opioid reversal medication we give it engine easily.

but a lot of people on the street have a. injectable form kind of like an epi pen almost right. you testified that the firehouse that you work there you deal with a lot of overdose calls. and so you have a lot of experience dealing with people who are overdosing got it from or from opiates or from other controlled substance. and you have seen. you have seen. or dealt with many people who come oh don't. be an overdose because of market. correct. me if i did if i did not nor can we still give. if it will want to hear a pulse and give compressions as necessary. i've never not had an argument but i.

would be able to get medical attention to somebody that. had. overdosed on opioid and lost their. ok so let me ask you is it fire department policy when you are going to call an overdose the police are also dispatched to that call. and that is because when people are revived from that they often become combative right. not often. and are. not often but it happens i've seen it happen. now and i just kind of talk to you a little bit about your testimony about. may 25th 2020 you were out for a walk because it was your day off right. yes yes sorry you know for

a lot and you're watching 30 walking westbound on 38th street and you see the lights and you said it's not uncommon to see lights there in my neighborhood not not my corner of enemy. or in the city. and as you walked what would be the south east corner of 38th and chicago you talked to you heard a woman say yelling that they are killing you right and so you did this kind of circle loop to visualize and see what was going on right and. at the point that you came on scene mr floyd was already on the ground right correct and mr for. you saw what you what your memory told you was 4 police officers on the right. but you know know that it was 3 right. and i think you made some

reference about why you videotaped because our memories are. fallible and and again a stressful situation can impact your memory right absolutely that's why we're lucky if that is right. it's also fair to say that once you kind of came you 1st talked to officer tom and you said that you identified yourself as a minneapolis fire front runner and officer tal asked you to step onto the curb and you did that. and you would agree that when you 1st arrived on scene your own personal just what you personally your own personal demeanor was much more call. and as you were there between 826 and the 3rd is so in about

4 minutes. you would agree that your own demeanor got louder and more frustrated and upset. that much there's no way that he is angry. we're desperate. i got quite angry after mr white it was loaded in the islands and. there was no point in trying to reason with them anymore because they had just killed so many so in terms of the in terms of the time that you were there you have no idea what those officers were doing on the scientific are right. saying at the top stories that i couldn't see from my vantage point you know yes. you want to they were doing i couldn't see it that junior officers. except

maybe they get their shoulders up. and so it's fair to say you don't know what they were doing. correct you don't know what they were talking about the 2 of them. and there was again you described a fairly large crowd and 12 people that were all in that general area and several people were yelling right. right and some people were yelling louder than others right right and some a lot of people were saying things like get off of you right right and a lot of people you yourself were saying i want to know what his pulse. and some some people were. slower. and would you describe other people's demeanors as upset or. it's

a very it's i don't know if you've seen anybody being killed but it's upsetting. the answer is yes and as you go just there are you that is when you perceive i'm going to just ask you to answer my questions as i asked them to you fred. you also talked about how. when you 1st approached you saw the complete and total body weight of all 3 officers on mr fein areas that all 3 officers. their body weight was on. the back there their full body weight was thinking to be on him but that's not something that would kill all right. the but used you testified that they get saadi way yes question ideally yes.

that has questions of you. so just to be clear for the record is clear you testified yes. you know let me finish my question. you testified that when you 1st arrived you observed the weight of all 3 officers on mr ford yes or no yes. but again once you were sure that work commanded or directed whatever term you want to use to the curb you again as far as the other 2 officers you were not watching who had their way where or where i could correct you cannot see the other jobs they could see and they were not talking. and if there is a. lot of people were yelling right and again you were not paying attention to what they were saying. here or

there so do you remember what the officers were talking about oh i said no they didn't they were talking. you also testified that as you were observing. mr show. on george floyd that you formed the opinion that mr shoguns hand was in his pocket. and you described him as comfortable. you also testified that you observed what you thought to be fluid coming from mr

ford's body and you assigned that or you believed that to be your. i consider that it was and that is a sign. that you recall telling the agents that it was easier i don't know. and you said that you testified that your focus became really sort of zoomed in on trying to get the attention of the officers right. not the attention so much. trying to reason with them gaining access to get mad but tension. and you testified

that you believe that the other voices the voices of of the other people interfered with you you getting their attention i think it was a weird about it. that you know that's how i could hear you talking is responding to me. now in terms of your the statement that you gave you were interviewed by agents law matthew and agent james ryerson do you recall those names. do you dispute me if i'm wrong. and would you dispute me if i told you that that interview took place on may 28th of 2020. and. before coming into court. did you have an opportunity to review your statement at all. and i had the opportunity to get it and. you never read the transcript of your statement on which i asked you

. i just want to just ask you a few questions you said that officer todd at some point said if you're really a firefighter you should know better. have you been to other scenes where people are trying to interfere with police officers doing their jobs. you know not really. you remember telling the agents that you believe that officer chauvin ideas hands in his pocket. i'm. vaguely remember saying that. do you recall telling the agents that you were pretty certain the fluid was coming from mr ford's body and that's what made you think he was dead. i'm sure you said

that. do you recall describing the crowd as a heavy crowd. night. when to refresh your recollection to review the transcript of your state. i don't want to. with you dispute me if i told you that you told the agents it was a heavy crowd. i know yes. do you recall. after paramedics took mr floyd and then you had a conversation with. the firefighters in iraq how you described

the physical appearance of mr ford i do. you recall telling them that he. i don't want to argue with what your grounds. the state your pieces are. i know you don't want to look at your transcript. but i'm pro-choice the witness. anything else in the. future under.

your. breath. oh yeah. would you describe mr floyd as a small slim man. the rule. yet they appeared to be out with 3 grown men on top of somebody it appeared that he was small and frail. but i know that i'm going to be original question that. i was actually may answer. please the. court of cults will remain with mr lane.

we better have a break in proceedings there in the trial of derek shogun they white police officer who's accused of causing the death of george floyd a black man who was on the ground for several minutes with derek sherman and other offices kneeling on him this is the genevieve hansen that we've been listening to she's a firefighter and a tri trained 1st responder am t. an emergency medical technician and she was described being off duty on the night of these events and arriving on the scene and realizing from her training that george floyd was required medical assistance she tried to ask the officers to let her into the scene or to give them assistance and they all

refused let's just listen in i think there's information that is not requested the attorneys for the steve the redirect we could have you questions of a pink but things were left out the private the best you leave questions for you to answer those a map a volunteer additional information or we could go big come back tomorrow. so it seems the judge has actually been giving jimmy hence a bit of a telling off there because of her responses to some of the questions from erik nelson the defense attorney for derek sharon who's been cross-examining her in the last half an hour or so because she responded a few times not directly with a yes or no to some of those questions but with a reply that shed doubt on his questioning he was trying to suggest that. she might have as a firefighter not appreciated having people around her telling her what to do when

she was doing her job and she responded to that quite firmly he also in the last few minutes said to her that she had no idea what the 2 officers were doing because of where she was standing and said you don't know what they were talking about and try to undermine her version of events which is clearly what the defense is designed to do in a court case to try and discredit the witness perhaps and suggest that they might not have seen what they think they saw earlier she did say that she had noticed that he wasn't moving this was in evidence to for the prosecution he wasn't moving and he was cuffed 3 grown men were putting their weight on somebody it's too much she noticed that the officers were leaning on his body appeared to be the majority of their weight over mr floyd and she regrets at the time that she didn't call 911 straight away because she spent her time trying to get access to the offices and

then also to give them the opportunity to even be talked through what they should be doing she felt they should be checking his pulse she said that had she been allowed in she would have checked as a way as she would worry about his spinal cord and she would check for a pulse and if she hadn't found one and she would have given compressions i think we cross now to a religious order has been monitoring the court case for us and so it's extraordinary situation where the witness has been told off by the judge took us through what's been happening there and also bring us up to date with what happened earlier on in the day. here this is an interesting testimony here from genevieve hansen the judge clearly there admonishing her to just simply answer the questions that are being asked of her. but the bottom line the big picture of all of this is that she was a certainly a very powerful witness. as for the prosecution for 2 reasons number one is because

she was an eyewitness to this incident she was not working she was an off duty she's a firefighter in minneapolis fire department but was off duty just happened to be in the area as this was happening so she's being called is just simply an eyewitness like anyone else would be walking down the street but because she is a minneapolis fire department personnel she clearly has an understanding of what it's like to try to resuscitate someone that is under stress such as george floyd apparently was there so she serves 2 purposes for the prosecution eyewitness to what she saw the video that she took but also the prosecutors were asking her about her professional training and that's why she was saying listen i was trying to tell the officers there on scene that i was an off duty firefighter for the minneapolis police fire department i wanted to try to help because she felt

that george floyd needed help and so that's why her testimony is so powerful because it serves 2 purposes for the prosecution now the defense as you pointed out were trying to was trying to as defense lawyers do trying to poke holes in her testimony saying like insinuating that she was disrupting the scene or that because she was off duty she was trying to tell the police officers on scene how to handle the situation this is ultimately going to be up for the jury to decide where they come down on this but bottom line is overall even though she was admonished it minute admonished by the judge to simply answer the questions you got to believe this was 30 strong testimony for the prosecution and they got to feel pretty good on where this went now of course earlier in the day other strong testimony as well . from 4 different minors. 2 of them are now 18 years old but 10 months ago during

the incident they were under 18 years old their of their their their photos or their images were not shown on the screen at the judge's orders their names were not released in open session in the court one of the minors was as young as 9 years old and all of them were eyewitnesses to the scene and the 9 year old saying that she was visibly shaken and that she said when asked what were you feeling when you saw this happening to george floyd she said i was sad and i was mad you know these are people that are too young to have their images show on in the video in the courtroom but yet still witnessed george floyd dying there so this was strong testimony for the prosecution as well eyewitnesses that were miners and according to 2 court to reporters that were in the courtroom there are only 2

reporters allowed in the courtroom because of. coronavirus and social distancing. those 2 reporters who are essentially that what's called the pool reporters they take notes and they distribute those notes to the rest of us that are not inside the courtroom those 2 reporters said during the testimony of the 9 year old. the jurors who who the who the reporters in the courtroom can see we those of us watching the feed cannot see. the reporters said that the jurors were in their words you know gave sympathetic expressions and that the some of the jurors were visibly shaken by that testimony read into that what you want this is early on in what's going to be a month long trial but clearly there has been some impactful my. minutes here on tuesday. in that courtroom gabriel is on to thank you very much indeed.

mary frances berry is a professor of american history at the university of pennsylvania she's also a former chair of the u.s. commission on civil rights she joins us now from new orleans thank you very much indeed for being with us and what want to ask you what your main impression was of the testimony that you've heard today. well that made an impression is that the defense is doing something else that your correspondent did note the defense is trying to prepare for arguing its own case when it comes to it by getting rid of some of the points made but the prosecutor 2 of them one is the crowd they defense keeps arguing there was a crowd a crowd the same grave the police had to take all that into account they tried to use miss sampson the firefighter as a way to say didn't you say that there was a large crowd or whatever and they tried that with mr williamson this morning the 2

witnesses today that presented an opportunity from the defense perspective to undermine and try to prepare for their own case as if they could discredit mr williamson by reading he didn't really know what he's doing all the ins and martial arts and nothing about police and to discredit ms hanson and get her rattled and tell her that all you're doing a burning building and a fire a same as the guy on the sidewalk who's dying because the the the guy is suffocating him and to get her all confused so that they can be prepared as they make their medical arguments and defense which is what they're going to do that they can say well we had you know hansen said there was a crowd and the this other guy didn't really know what he was doing and bring those specs but anyone who saw. george fluent in extremis and saw all the video all of it over and over again even before the trial began and now is

not going to be a fruit are dismayed the only question is will there be at least one juror who will somehow say oh this makes very good sense but that's the effort and the judge just said mohnish made up her firefighter and her coming back to borrow a little trust. more of it to simply undermine her get her disco ball and make her answer will question even though the question is putting her on the wrong foot and does make any sense alone will signal there but i don't think the public will be confused on that point though i mean it clearly as you say it's a standard procedure in court cases for the defense attorneys to try to rattle the witness and get them to contradict themselves and so on but if it can for the people watching this would they think that that might put them off becoming a witness in future is is there a danger that seeing this kind of practice will undermine people's faith and that he will system it would you think that they they know that it's part of how it works and they accept that what was your impression of a in

a case like this where so much has been seen what was seen was so graphic and the whole world has seen it to have this go on in the system and see these kinds of defenses under but in a people has to make some people dismayed about the center sent system but others will simply say what the prosecution is presenting is so powerful that in the it will prevail and hopefully the firefighter will come back tomorrow strong just as mr williamson did and proceed to fight despite the efforts to try to undermine what they're doing what did you make here in the day there was a witness to who said that she wished he'd done more and been able to intervene more. is that something that merely stickley anybody can do in a situation like that given the police's arm do you think do you think that that was a genuine feeling that they could have done more. well her the feeling that was darnell took the videos the young woman. and the anyone would feel helpless in

a situation like that and wonder whether you could do so was or something else you could do but when the police so there and when you're there and you're trying to tell them to stop and you can't all you can do is look meant it afield kerry say and as 'd the 9 year old said it and a film made it but there isn't much you can do on the scene in this case though and the outcome it of it will tell us whether police will be able in future to do things like this and get away with it so that people do feel helpless so there's nothing they can do and they can claim that all police training or something that somehow taught them to do this we will fight it out as this case moves on and what the outcome is thank you very much indeed damn a francis very for talking to us on after their news hour frankie thank you and

that's it for made on tape after this news hour on the back in a moment with more of the day's news in the meantime here is catch up on our website address to his al-jazeera dot com thanks very much indeed for watching i cannot. welcome to doha from every one of us. even those working quietly behind the scenes. so you can relax enjoy the perfect break in your journey.

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