that's what appears there and that would be angled in towards the squad car correct correct. take that down or. serum showing you what's been marked for identification purposes as exhibit 1047 does that also appear to be a still frame image taken from a body worn camera minneapolis police officer yes a timestamp being 827 and 49 seconds yes or 202749 correct and it appears that the officer wearing this body worn camera has now asked stood up correct it's a different answer yes from higher to lower correct lower than higher so. it appears that the cameras at

a higher angle looking down yes and can you see in this photograph what appears to be the knee and shin placement of the officer yes or and would you agree that it appears that the knee is placed in the center between mr floyd strolled or what's it appears to be between shoulder blades or yes i offer 1047. when the 1047 is received remission to publish. so again here in this particular photograph you can see the placement of mr show vns knee in between the shoulder blades of mr floyd correct yes an and it happens to be right here that moment when the carotid artery is being help aided by the e.m.t. yes or. if you take this tone. she

won last quarter graphs are. again does this appear to be a photograph taken from or a still frame image of a minneapolis police body camera yes or a time being 1028 and 29 seconds yes or. 202829202020 minutes or yes which would be $82829.00. and again can you see the placement of officer shortens neat yes or can you see mr floyd's head yes or i'd offer 1048 and there's him. yes he looked to receive permission to publish and then again it's a little hard to see here you can see mr ford's head in that area yes and

mr shogun officer showing his knee between the shoulder blades of mr ford yes sir. does this appear to be a neck restraint no sir fiza sapir to be a prone. hold but some an officer may apply with his knee yes. you can take that down. now if you have talked about taking. or holding the person in the prone position after they have stopped resisting do you recall talking about yes or and. are there circumstances in your

career where you have had to use your body weight to hold a suspect down for longer periods of time than say 2 or 3 seconds yes or and are there times where you have had to use your body weight to use to hold i suspect down for 10 minutes i'm not sure but it helps me don't pretend it's not at on a recollection is it possible. yes it's possible. and there are circumstances again that an officer asked to take into consideration in terms of continuing to use their body weight regardless of whether the person is resisting or not resist right. sure. sometimes an officer has called for e.m.'s cracked that's right and sometimes an officer may hold a person using their body weight to restrain them awaiting the arrival of v.m.s.

or yes or you've done that yourself i am and sometimes you have to try or is it fair to say that you've had to train officers to use their body weight to continue holding them until m s arrives. as long as needed to control them yes. you would agree that. a scene where force is been used in a crowd can congregates and is voicing their displeasure or their concern or whatever you want to say that can be a chaotic situation for an officer or a yes or no and you would agree also that what you train minneapolis police officers to do relevant to their use of force. is to consider the totality of the circumstances agreed yes or and you train officers that the

decision to use force is from their perspective. yes or not the perspective hindsight being 2020 that's occurred that's the specific policy of minneapolis police department. versus commerce or not that is an capsulated or incorporated into the minneapolis police department policy on the use of force correct. because situations are rapidly evolving cracked and sometimes just because of an incident is 10 minutes long or 20 minutes long that doesn't mean that it can't instantaneously change that's heard. what may not be a threat one second can be a threat the next correct. if

you've ever been trained or trained others. to say that if such a person can talk they can breathe and it's been said yes. in terms of the continuum the continuation of the use of force or not the use of continuation the graphic that we looked at in exhibit. one term. for we could be published exhibit $110.00 your honor. this is the defense control and response training are correct that's right simply because a person is not actively resisting right but that doesn't mean you can't use some degree of force correct. that's occurred if a person is passively resisting you can still use certain types of force right yes

that's down in this area here correct and that would include the use of joint manipulation as core holds pressure points. correct yes a. we could. start with you don't. you were asked a series of questions about. the strike char and the next you know the red yellow and green zone zones it's called a not one but nanda judd's yes. that is that char is designed specifically for punches aton strikes things of that nature that's where you said yes.

in terms of the maximal restraint technique. you were describing the use of the maximal restraint technique yes or and again officers are trained to sometimes escalate the use of force in certain circumstances correct yes and deescalate the use of force in certain circumstances yes or if an officer decides initially to use the maximal restraint technique and then subsequently decides against it because of a medical situation or because of a lack of resistance or would that be a deescalation of the use of force yes. is it more or less difficult to render medical aid if someone is in

a maximal restraint technique i would say it was probably a bit more difficult than but around that you would not be able to put them on their back for example it would be difficult yes. in terms of the use of force. part of the ground defense program is actually to use body weight as a form of the escalation of. its use of force that. maybe uses that higher escalation the force yes. but sometimes holding someone in a position can be a deescalating technique yesterday. and alternately. again in terms of the use of. force and deciding home much for should be used the difference in size of an

officer to a subject is a consideration it is a consideration yes as well as the presence of other officers yes or. you would agree that basically the use of force in any circumstance is credibly dependent upon the situation yes or no and when an officer is using force they are to employ the critical decision making not correct is using them at all times but including the use of force yes or and that critical decision making model is not simply focused exclusively on the subject of the force being you correct it's a situational awareness tool and the situational awareness extends beyond just the subject that's occurred it extends to numerous factors occurred.

i have no further questions your honor is that. they here. sir so follow up on some questions that counsel is asking you regarding. the use of force be reasonable in eyes of the officer that's the that's what you you answer the trick is that right. the model the officer of all the moment in forces use yes but force is always subject to review correct yes or and review is always going to be after the fact right that's correct

and the force that's used is reviewed must be reasonable that's correct taken from that perspective the perspective of the officer of the tie correct that's correct but the officer doesn't have the unfettered discretion to use whatever force. nobody wants or you know if we could publish one thing on which is really control guide continual. you know when we look over here on the left hand side here talking about what force to use once proportional we see that the officers to look at the subject of the year is that right of course in the subject yes and the amount of force that the use that's proportionate has to be proportionate to the subject correct. generally speaking yes so if for example

a group of bystanders were doing something that the officer might find annoying such as videotaping. that act would not be subject control behavior would it. and that act would not justify the use of force or escalation of force by the officer what it that alone sir no because that's not subject control behavior correct correct so if we could then publish exhibit 184 for. exhibit 184 has been received in evidence in which you see years a group of bystanders separated yes women and in a couple of instances you can see the bystanders have something in their hands correct yes those appear to be video cameras as i write our own smartphones yes or

. no. that. extra fact would not justify an increased use of force when it just the camera surnow. if you could take down exhibit 184. the. exception will use of the needy across the subject's back it's a transitory position is that right. yes it is it's meant to be used to gain control of the subject while some act is being handcuffed. but all force must end at some point that is correct and once the subject is under control it no longer resistant it's inappropriate to hold in in the position where you're

draping your knee across their backward neck as i would say force. and get off of them. yes or. you talked about the prone position in another itself being something that can lead to positional asphyxia is that right yes or would that risk be increased by the addition of body weight yes or no and so if an officer was placing body weight on the with the need on the neck or the back or the need sorry the neck and the back that would transfer the officers body weight on to the person correct yes or and that would increase the restriction i guess the decrease the ability of the subject to breathe is there a potentially serious.

and. it would not be. i have to ask you would that be appropriate to hold someone in a position where it's more difficult to breathe for an extended period of time after the subject has stopped offering resistance. visits or would it be appropriate and within training to hold a subject in that prone restraint position with the need on the neck and a knee on the back for an extended period of time after the subject of stopped offering any resistance no sir. or has lost their pulse numbers and you testified in individual can be unconscious one moment and then suddenly become conscious and become violent cracked the bench will be as if you have had a circumstance where an individual has lost their pulse and suddenly come back to life and become more violent not that i'm aware of. nothing further.

certain terms of the use of force the continuation of the use of force you were just shown exhibit 184 and asked to be published 24. looking at this individual right here does a appear that the man in blue is holding back the man in black as a government box and yes. at a glance. now in terms of. the continuation of use of force we're talking about involvement of onlookers right the words they

used matter correct yes and if they're cheering on and saying good job officer that's one consideration. but if they're saying i'd slap the fuck out of you or your pussy or your chong with that reasonably tend to rise alarm at a police officer yes or. have no for the question. if you see him. should the officer also to take that into account to consider whether there actually. is nothing for. there was a. new research. while we've just been hearing there from lieutenant johnny

muscle from the minneapolis police department who was part of the training team for the use of force by officers including their experiment back in 28 in the court has just gone into recess for lunch and i do want to apologize to our viewers for any strong language you've had were obviously following a live event here that was a cross-examination by the defense which has really focused on officer training including one very specific line of questioning around the exact placement of mr zinni on george points body and also when i asked the attendant muscle said that officers do have to decide if they actually believe the things that someone says when they're being arrested including when they're saying that they can't breathe he's also testified at length about the details of how officers are taught to restrain people and potentially render them unconscious as well as how they are trained to put their knees into the back of their shoulders in order to control a subject he did also emphasize though that offices should use the minimal amount of force necessary in an arrest including when it comes to neck restraints now if

you're just joining us we are following day 7 of the trial of a former at minneapolis police off that derek sjodin he's facing charges including 2nd degree murder after he knelt on george boyd's neck for nearly 9 and a half minutes last may there's also been a real emphasis by the prosecution on how mr sharon's actions were against his training and policy while let's now go to alan fischer he's standing outside that courthouse for us in minneapolis and that really sounded like a rather successful cross-examination there from the defense specifically around the placement there of mr show me. but i think it if any time you have a witness on the stand who's currently say yes yes in agreement to you you would think that that is a significant moment and would regard that as a when there are a couple of key for you said that one to me 1st of all that if you are putting someone in a net called to make them unconscious the has to be pressure on both sides of the

neck and that was something that johnny mercer who teaches restraint techniques agreed with another important point was. he said that there is always the concern that if someone hasn't been compliant and then suddenly they go. go quiet there's they're not saying anything they pass out if they come back if the reeking consciousness the can be much more violent and so the suggestion there was that. was absolutely justified in keeping the position that he held for as long as he did and we knew it was 9 minutes 29 seconds and the reason he did that was to make sure that if george floyd regained consciousness he could be held in position for officer safety what was interesting with the read direct from the prosecution he said that if someone is. i'm conscious i comply do

you continue to go would it be inappropriate to continue to exist at that level of force your body weight on their back and their shoulders and the officer said no that wouldn't be the case and we also heard. jodi muscle say that the more you restrict someone's movement then you restrict their breathing as well so i suspect both sides feel that they got something out of jodi more so being there the prosecution perhaps believe they want to gain simply because they called them as a prosecution witness of course well as alan was just saying there are 10 and 20 miles that was asked about the position that charge for a was in while he was restrained and he explained why the recovery position would have been much less of a health risk. why would you roll someone into the side recovery position after they've been handcuffed and are compliant. several reasons are there but one would be to prevent a potential situation where they may be subject to positional asphyxiation and how soon as a subject to be placed into the side recovery position after they become compliant

and no longer resistance when it's when the scene is called for and you're able to do it. in terms of subject safety how soon should the person be put into the site recovery position i would say sooner the better. can you talk us through a little more of the prosecution's argument and so far it's focused on a large part on the sense that mr sherman his actions were against police policy as well as his training when does he attended muscles test may not leave the ass. it's obviously hard to judge if you're talking about a 6 week trial to to to give when there's an losers after one day after one witness gives evidence it's got to be sinister teletype because that's exactly what the jury will do about the prosecution is laying out its case block by block is trying to build up each day look this is what happened and they've established these are the training procedures for the police sit in minneapolis this is what derek show

over and did and essentially saying to the jury do you think he exceeded what he had to do to keep george floyd on control when george floyd was compliant should he have backed off and tried to administer 1st aid or by staying there for longer than necessary did he put george floyd's life at risk did he force him to go on point is that because him to stop breathing therefore did he cause his death and therefore he was guilty of murder and so it's hard to judge after each witness or who's leading who's behind it and it would be wrong to do that i think what both sides have agreed is that the use of force is necessary for it by police in this day and age it is something that has to happen that there are techniques in dealing with it in deescalating but also trying to get someone under control and was pointed out during evidence anyone who's being arrested very rarely is happy to be

arrested and so therefore they will argue they will perhaps even physically fight with the officers that are doing it here they were establishing that george floyd was put into the position this position by derek shove and the prosecution are alleging that 9 minutes and 29 seconds was excessive and by doing so for as long as he did derek shogun put george ford's life at risk well as alan was just saying and i saw an instable scene in the totality of the trial and earlier today on day 7 sergeant keang a crisis intervention training coordination with the minneapolis police department also testified he spoke about the training given to offices especially when it comes to dealing with a situation of a someone in crisis. that was congress on individual in crisis symptoms and deescalation strategies that may be used for in the or in crisis so it's a scenario based training that. the trainer minas us at the office

association brains and professional actors to come men and to to conduct crisis in areas where they're in a state of crisis and the officer has to use the he has a duty as the strategies to bring them down to pre-crisis level or to help them out how long they've already seen if a very big witnesses take the stand so far i know we never know exactly who's going to be called until they actually pay that who else should we be looking for potentially in the coming days. well again. there are many people who can give evidence that will back up what the prosecution are seeing particularly on the medical evidence and the training evidence that will become important where like with hear from the pathologist at some point in the next few days if not the next few weeks about the autopsy that he carried out on george floyd's body remember the family also commissioned his own independent report there's a possibility that they will be called there may well be evidence to from some of

those who are own derek chauvinist at the time and we will certainly see the video the daily show was wearing his body and there was a motion before the court on monday about trying to exclude all of that video it's very rare that if something is should an expert except and that already was that the judge will say well you can watch the rest of it there we're going to see what that sure is but the prosecution were concerned that there was in their words some self serving words used by those around afterwards which would stand in place of derek shoving giving evidence of course we don't know whether derrick children is going to take the stand in his own defense alan fresh there with all the latest for us outside that courthouse in minneapolis thank you so much alan well let's now go back to mary morris here she is the former chief public defender for hennepin county where this trial is taking place and is also a professor at the criminal defense clinic and at the university of minnesota north

korea joins us now from minneapolis professor john as long as he come in a huge amount of ground as are saying it really feels like his testimony potentially benefited both sides and i want to ask you about this moment he looked at that photo of mr show even on mr ford's neck when he said it could have been a technique that is taught to control a subject but that is me should have been rather on his back than his neck is this potentially about intent as the defense trying to show that this could have rather been negligence instead of murder. well the the need then the most common picture that we see are video that we see is from the front to the dark showman and it looks pretty clearly as is neo quasi is now what the defense is trying to show is that. they are on the neck it was a shoulder blade as was trained to handcuff i think the issue here is that the defense is asking a lot of hypotheticals and this witness said yes yes yes tunes hypotheticals but

the issue is the jury going to believe that the hypotheticals he's talking about actually apply in this case remember we've had i think this is the 6 witness from the minneapolis police department who looked at that circumstance and said that this was excessive force well i'm curious then do you think that this will still eventually come down to cause of death a much more factual interpretation of that yes i think the defense's strongest argument here is parts of death that's why we're going to see a lot of contested medical evidence and i suspect a lot of this week i wonder as well as many people watching this trial are wondering if the issue here is actually with mr show then with the police training and crucially what is actually considered reasonable and that's obviously been at the heart of all the protests we've also seen yes some of the things the next restraints that they were before.