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global news makers and talk about the stories that matter syria. ok today on the stream the story of nigeria's bronze is looted by the british in 8097 and now founding museums around the world you can see some of these cultural treasures behind me they're always made out of bronze sometimes metal or wood or ivory and they came from the kingdom opening let me show you a map so you can see where that the southern part of nigeria is where the original kingdom is many cities that see that little red dot and this is in southern nigeria so we're not talking about the republic of banning but they kinda of the name now we have that right let's get the debate started we often hear the idea that

restitution is an attack upon buzy and that this is iconoclasm whereas in fact restitution is already a part of the normal operation of museums in america and europe in the cases of nazi loot and in the cases of indigenous ancestral human remains for the very different historical circumstances of african objects that were taken under colonialism increasingly the conversation is happening in between all the unseasoned trustees and raises who think it's time that this issue is addressed. so let's get this conversation started with i guess telling us we have a notes way we have donovan we have nailed it is good to see the gentleman in there to introduce yourself to a stream audience actual connection to that the name bronzes. artist. what.

do you believe. if you research on trust to get about rosie's a view. of your office has been. designed. whose really dark. horse. is a lone star in o.t.l. we get back to her in just a moment don of a nice to have you say on the stream tell everybody your connection to the penny. i'm a journalist an orphan i was a b.b.c. correspondent in nigeria many years ago and i've just written a book called loot britain and the bend in bronzes in which i tell the tale of how the bronzes were made in that west african kingdom how and why the british took them in 1907 what happened to them since and the very current active debate which

we talk about this evening what should happen to them now i know you've been making headlines around the loud to you are a hot topic in the out well tell our audience 5. sam neill courtesan head of museum special collections in the university of aberdeen in scotland and yes with the universe to announce that it would return been in drums about 4 weeks ago now there was purchased by the unrest in 1057 good to have near bonn a day and in l.t.a. and also you audience watching right now on you tube you can jump into the comment section of part of today's program you know to i did a very very simple explanation of what the printing bronzes actually are but there's a much deeper cultural significance a sunday here comes from at and state how would you explain what's these striking objects actually truly may well or.

or symbol or heritage. objects were made. or maybe all of this all original horses were imposed on someone before you remember your story or telling us stories or history or the maid or do. so all. do products together or absolute or history or heritage symbol or civilization which is not that oh yes. but me i'm just going to show some of the pictures that are in your book loot and it starts off with this campaign. to go to the name city because the brits want to do trades with the hour the playing and the over is not that keen on doing so so we we start off with well this is the team who went out to bring city can you talk us through some of these pictures and why they're important.

these are some of the senior officers of the punitive expedition they're sitting on board a boat in liverpool and they're in their way to bury in city the british empire at that time the preeminent global power able to assemble a force very quickly they bring in ships from cape town from motor from across the globe they march into ben in city they believe that the burger king of bend in the city the british say has not been observing the terms of an earlier treaty which he had been coerced probably into into agreeing to some years earlier and they raise ben incisions to the ground they have an overwhelming military force they have the maximum gun which is a a devastating weapon and the buried empire a proud empire a place of cultural achievement for many hundreds of years has as no charts here

you can see british officers in the arbors palace in the courtyard and this is just some of the loot which they took of that as you say the bronzes but of course great piles of tasks as well these are i suppose iconic i suppose infamous images and they helped capture why the looting of city has become emblematic of the whole question of colonial duty dark because the ben and bones as were so splendid and because the manner in which they were taken was so egregious so relatively recent and so well documented neal. until quite recently you hear 1st he had been in france that you were you were planning on keeping it was part of your collection and that changed can you tell us that story and why it changed. i think this is something that's been happening over many years and

gradually mean obviously bernie graham's the 1990 s. was arguing for the return of any promises so it's not something that's new. but i think for me from the 2 thousands we started being involved in. north america still you new zealand and i think what's become so clearly it is that instead of seeing these things as things they are by relationships that are by people they matter tremendously to people from whom they were they were collected. so i think we started seeing our collection slightly differently seeing it as a being about relationships and about relationships in the present as much as the possibly want to address that. so we realized that you know we had this this one bend in bronze that was was bought by the university in the 195-0000 example of african art and that was on display in 1906 celebrate the independence of nigeria but the more we thought about it the more we realized the new yes we might have had

legal title to it but really given the way in which any city was destroyed in the material was looted we really couldn't say that we had model title so it really clashed with the university's values of being international being inclusive being respectful and so i really i think very clearly very logically came the feeling that we should return this one assassin thoughts with advancement through an instant reaction of mom for nothing with a question this is from it seems obvious i should be much closer to that house of arjun and that's how response. well yes surge coming home. share our stories do. proper access to their war. critter america marius says and i'm going to get this one t. in there why not set up infrastructure of the countries help invest in the preservation of their own treasures their own culture. i don't disagree with that

at all i think really you know that's very important that people should be able to to see their own culture and i think you know there are advantages to having things all square in the world but i think the important 'd thing is that the decision to decide what happens lies with the people who these things belong to i am picking up on one more thing here part of the other said this is you this is from adam are they if they are returned they will not be don't have adequate the answer adam a is nigerian we are not known for maintaining a poseur the historical artifacts this is something you looked into and you went to been eans city what did you find. what i would say that the debate about the problems within nigerian museums is carried out with much more candor and understanding within nigeria itself that it is in europe and this is an important point and are are quite facts for nigeria in this story nigerian museums already

have a very fine collection of bene brahms's if you go to the national museum in lagos unfortunately not many of them are on display and not many people in lagos go and see them having said that i think the reason a golden opportunity to make things better and to repair that situation and not to use is the right man you should be trying to because their main city right now there is assembled something of a dream to a governor governor who is really committed a star architect is or not he is told use and do a better job and the the international support the international sympathy is there so this is a golden opportunity for nigerians on the ground to get it right and that is indicative of how the world is changing if you like the fate of the better bronzes will be determined as much by the acts of key nigerian. as the

consciences of western curators that is something very important say that i am just looking at your picture of you david other i. who has designed so many extraordinary buildings around the world have a good discussion if i was in a fly on the wall here what i hear oh here we were talking about the significance of the mosque. which means you don't. care if your. guns or whatever don't explain how important is your youngest development opening. to building don't probably 60 said if you're. going to symbol. striving for excellence on your judgments of aussie legislation. i'm wondering here because there is that will conversation that is happening about well if we give. well then

in bronzes back to 90. you have the resources to no cost them who won't look after them that happened instances where a lot of money was spent adding them back in different parts of europe to the 950 s. and they ended up back in europe and you know to how have we all so people can know that what happened or year no no it's not going to happen again because now there's a plan in place to view the globe stand up was young don't lose your we're starting out on this music on what is being built on the an independent frost legacy which the region trust which hardest the state with us public trust you know nobody of our or our last real promise of been in it was the government and c m m which is national. monuments on the board of trustees are this legacy

research on frost is an independent structure going to talk which will responsibility the busy on i don't short it is built according to our standards it's been designed by citing. why we were down so you can assure that the city of the project but we are short of these later and preserve our orders to go about this practice you know a lot of this is a part of in here or. it's already here for the looted so they were sitting here. rather bottoms to the said oh really it's all been about to park in the national museum said there for anybody to see just this afternoon i went to vote in the 02 saw runs this. reason would governments all been sought probably more than was one. leaders were developing was lawson's young.

woman's job was to her hours which real receded and displayed because the parks are going to publish promise of this new video of this gotten out of the government of. god no cardinal was likely to state very cross on this little serious original trust act as an international group shows the new problems beth us you have to get that the name bronze is back to. so that involves a little slow motion adds to teach me about because it's about have a listen to this comment festival and i just come off the back of a meeting and interested not take there is a new dynamic both in the global south and in the global norse former colonies are strengthening them using him infrastructure and they are developing policies to

retrieve objects that were lost involuntary during the colonial era former colonizers on the other hand are slowly moving to a point where they are willing to repatriate such objects. now the challenge is to whether former colonies and former colony are able to reduce them which will distrust and to to dialogue on the issue on an equivalent level only den some of the injustice committed in the colonial era can be undone. alexander i think what's really important is this discussion is coming together the consensus that's being built and i think you know we i feel that we've you know played a part in building the collaboration with the partners that are not yet he's been talking about it i think is really important we don't see this as a sort of oppositional thing that it's something where we you know we come into

with good intent and then we can we can achieve good things. we talked to the british museum we asked them if they would be part of this program. they sent us a statement inset is a very long statement but let's have a look at it and then i'll just put a couple of things that really struck us on the stream so i put that up on the screen there what he said you can actually see that and this is where the british museum are coming from where they they have some difficulty which i know you will be able to explain but they say we believe the strength of the british museum collection resides in its bret's and that's allowing millions of visitors and understanding of the cultures of the world and how they connect over time whether through trade migration conquest or peaceful exchange and we're talking about conquest right here so bothered me that sounds to me like they're not really. done to give the name bronze in this to this beautiful museum that will happen in the

southern part of nigeria that doesn't sound to me like they're going to hand them over what did you find when you went there to talk to them about this. well there's a lot i could say about the british museum i think when i started out on this project i i felt like a lot of people that it was a very you know self-assured possibly even arrogant institution which didn't feel it had to our answer for itself and towards the end i came see it instead as as a rather divided institution an institution which is almost paralyzed by this problem and doesn't quite know what to say and hence it's not untypical that they've given you a press release and they haven't appeared in this program the british museum does have a story to tell and doesn't always succeed in getting it across they are constrained in a way that neil courtesy in aberdeen for example is not there is something called the british museum act of $963.00 which makes it impossible for the british museum to de exception that museum speak for the handover in

a permanent way items from its collection with a few exceptions which which dan hicks mentioned at the beginning of the program to do not so young and not see taken luton human body parts but in general terms it's very difficult for the british museum to give things back for ever without a change to the law and that would require an act of parliament and it's difficult to see this current british conservative government. going down that route the british museum does have a lot of leeway however over loans and within the bend in dialogue group which is a group of museums which are talking about this thing they've indicated a willingness to lend back an unspecified number of bettin bronzes and they haven't they haven't even stipulated you know which ones within their collection they have to be haven't ruled out any objects but there is a potential car crash for the british museum i have to say which is that only other

museums in the belly dialogue group it's not inconceivable that they will give back their bet in burns's and the british museum. well end up loaning it's been abroad you know that let alone a fury of its people whose art has been stolen looted and the sense of how to negotiate that in the bank how do you thought about. writing this is why i'm in the university's decision was for an unconditional return and we didn't have a moral title so i think you know our decision is rather straightforward i think there's one thing i would take out the british museum statement i think it's interesting which is about this ability of objects to tell stories about connections with people around the world and i think it would be really good if we were able to lend scottish things to bending city so that that that you know mutual lending can go on i think it might be nice if we could but maybe sometime borrow some benny bronzes from from benning city and i think there's a there to be

a lot more flow between institutions rather than focusing too much on in on ownership but i think in the end this case for laws that the decision of ownership was quite simple and i tell you in that once made my my jaw dropped when you were suggesting an exchange of putting promises and some of the greatest start that europe has ever produced what were you suggesting that staying should be and i'll take that. no what i was saying was that this part of our hearts belongs to us. it's the world it's imperative and none of the issue that's the ownership of the to parks should be clear clearly established a lot of us not when we want to should have been established and the occupiers. but it was then like needed miller said we can't have this exchange programs where we are looking at all of the parks to illegal means your home and then

also law council or go. to also show you know more you know the law system is something that is not written them as your own sister well we're going to start limited items that belonged to us you know so it should be clear that russia of this art in part. and there will be a long time to you know ask all walks will belong to you belong to ross show you know museums. our one smiling all our fado right now i want to visit one more place and this is thing we can do to it some tiffs and the a digital project because it's a creative thoughts about how do we share our thoughts around the welt universally and this is one way have a lot have a lesson. nobody knew there is

a project designed to prove this is only a couple dozen canadians believe it is no no didn't isn't it isn't and google is a polluted genius in its $71920.00 this is for those who can who was the view of the normal for which is the looted indian in indigenous of them does not mean it is not a substitute for the patrician but. one who disappears that is going to be ended there isn't to his insurance to additional binning objects that's when i've got this shockingly short amount of time left in this program but i want to ask you just briefly and thoughts why you think this movement for the return of the bin implants is happening right now. well i think there's lots of things that i think many many museums curators are no thinking as i say about music objects as

relationships so there has been a huge change in the people working in museums i think there are many there's much more thinking about the history of collections and much more willingness to to listen to the people associated with objects so i think that the world has shifted in many different ways and i think we're coming together as partners on to be said to sort of golden moment. when we have got 45 seconds i think that will that will go hat was some of that happening now. well point some very specific political things present mycroft france went to west africa 2017 you made a very exciting and unexpected speech saying this cannot carry on a report came out which pertained to french museums but it sent shock waves across british and german museums and then even more recently black lives matters exploded in the united states in the summer of 2020 there is about police brutality in europe it seems to be all about the colonial legacy and their take very quickly from here what yet for all of the been in france is all around the world by

a long nigeria what year will that make a prediction. or see now on to reduce we're all. ending on some optimism. i love that and no t a bunch of e. mail you chivas thank you so much for being part of this conversation now you know about the body in france as u.s.c. headlines all of the time about them have a look here on my laptop you may not be out to see them in person but you can absolutely visit digital we connecting royal art treasures and supporting everybody and that will be available next year and so it's a very see you next time of the strain. it's a very bleak picture for a lot of americans out there white supremacy in fact all of our if you're putting

more money into the hands of someone 1st taking money out of the hands of other workers goes to their camp it becomes us 1st is that this is the deal about constraining your nuclear program the bottom line the big questions on out is they are the u.s. is always of in fact the people the world people pay attention to what you and i do see that is very good at bringing the news to the world from here from the al-jazeera london broke to special guests in conversation when society is divided when women are defiantly the only thing that benefits from not just the south unprompted spun interrupted the 1st one scared are those who are a. foreigner in. it would like to think that there's nationalism is not as ugly as someone else's nationalising. unscripted.

and. it's. all that. was wrong. that things perceived good childhood and. leave us to. try. to. cease. we understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world so no

matter what you see the news and kind of for that matter. this is al-jazeera. there are mcleod this is the news hour live from doha coming up in the next 60 minutes 40 countries pledged to supply india with oxygen as the country faces an unrelenting surge in corona virus infections. as india's covert crisis grows so does anger on social media and the government's effort to contain it. back in courts.