street is headed down the same road is the horse and buggy robert oulds al-jazeera los angeles and the italian supercar gainey says it will produce only hybrid cars by 2024 a cyan became its 1st petrol electric hybrid do when it was launched last year the company's investing $1300000000.00 in converting the rest of its range to hybrid pilot aims to produce its 1st all electric car by the end of the decade. time for a quick check of the headlines here on al-jazeera the 1st palestinian general strike in decades has been held in occupied territory in israel but it ended with further violence and bloodshed israeli security forces fired live rounds during protests in the occupied west bank 4 people were killed 160 injured israel's continued its bombardment of gaza at least 220 palestinians have been killed since the military offensive against hamas and other palestinian groups began

a week ago the palestinian death toll includes 63 children the u.n. is calling for border crossings to be reopened to provide badly needed humanitarian aid a convoy of international aid trucks started rolling in at one point but israel suddenly closed the crossing again citing security reasons israel's air defense system known as i and has intercepted more rocket fire from gaza at least 12 people have been killed in israel since the start of the conflict including 2 children and u.s. president joe biden has confronted anger in one of the battleground states that had to be him last november's election hundreds of pro palestinian protesters marched outside a ford marathon plant in michigan as biden visited to talk about electric vehicles during his speech he directly addressed palestinian american congresswoman when she declined. i want to say to you that i admire your intellect i admire your passion and i admire your concern for so many of the people hence my from my

heart i'm praying your grandmamma and family are well i promise from your you see that they are in the west bank your fighter in god thank you for being. meanwhile français proposed a cease fire resolution with the un security council in coordination with egypt and jordan president emanuel who's been hosting a summit of african nations spent several days calling for a rapid truce. in other news india's daily coronavirus death toll has reached another record high more than 4500 fatalities have been reported on wednesday the number of new cases been coming down in recent days after reaching daily highs of more than 4002 weeks ago india's 2nd wave scene hospitals in major cities run out of oxygen well those were the headlines the news continues here on al-jazeera after the street statement that so much and. it's a very bleak picture for

a lot of americans out there white supremacy impacts all of our you if you're putting your money into the hands of someone taking money out of the hands of other workers everyone goes to their camp and becomes a us versus them this is the deal about constraining your nuclear program the bottom line the big questions on out is there a. high end for me ok today on the strain could it be looking out the sun actually help reduce the temperature down here on earth let me show you what i mean. you could have. material pumped into this fear that material could reflect the sun's rays or solar energy all the way back to the sun meaning that we need down here a cat code that is a very basic rudimentary understanding of geo engineering that will produce that kongs that are known as an unknown there is a debate let's take

a look. should we be pursuing solar geo engineering the answer is that we just don't know what we do know is that the impacts of climate change are serious and getting worse and we're not doing all we need to do to address the climate crisis so we do engineering might be a useful part of a portfolio of responses but it also entails a wide range of poorly understood risks or will this one research program can help us understand those risks and whether or not solution or engineering deserves a spot in the portfolio of climate change responses salute you and you knowing is a really dangerous idea it is messing with the global climate system that is basically just about suppressing some of the symptoms of climate change it is not doing anything about the root causes and it comes with tremendous risks for global communities and ecosystems so instead i was betting on high risk techno fixes

what we really should be doing is get out of fossil fuels that means. and gas and not be expanding any of that infrastructure and there's really no way we can geoengineering our way out of the climate crisis some of i guess a nodding their head some of after shaking their heads let the debate fickett hello david hello and julie and i can be really nice have you on the stream david reintroduce yourself to international audience. david keith a professor at harvard in public policy and also engineering i worked on this topic i worked on climate for about 30 years nice to have it until a tele where he did well what eating. i have the mind and thank you family for having me on the show many ms i'm on i am an energy policy consulting based in new delhi in there i have been to young people and silage engineering my interest in the space is going to be a bushing that interested in climate change and the thought of so you should step

beyond looking at the. great to have it and can i please introduce yourself to international audience watching right now hard for me it's good to be a year my name is kelly ones are on the executive director of a 3 year old nonprofit organization called sober lining and our focus in silver lining is near term climate risk so we drive research we were government stakeholders members of the public our youth organizations to look at expanding our portfolio of options to address climate risk in the next 30 to 40 years where we may house and gaps that might not be addressed in other way. thank you kathy thank you thank you david and audience i know you have thoughts on this on you've got opinions and maybe to a couple of things you want to ask. guests jump into the comment section and you take a big part of this discussion the idea kelli and david that geo engineering may

well be a climate change solution david you go fast. so solution is a loaded word and that picks up exactly on the critique you heard which is the idea that it's the sole solution nobody in this debate who's remotely sensible things it's a solution i'd just put that off your shirt but it may be is a way to substantially reduce risks over the next generation in ways that we cannot achieve by emissions cuts alone so maybe that the combination of emissions cuts and solar geoengineering could be significantly safer particularly for the world's most vulnerable that would be emissions cuts alone but no single thing as a solution even emissions cuts alone are not a solution because we clearly need adaptation a complicated problem like climate change has many different things we need one of which may be this technology and one of the things that we found as we were putting

this show together the stream show together was trying to find out or of the different ways that maybe you could reflect off the sun the sun's radiation the energy so you could cool actually if that was possible i'm looking here on my laptop knowing how brightening science feasibility and applying for a reset can you tell us what moving out brightening is. certainly and i appreciate your characterization we don't tend to refer to these techniques as blocking the sun but rather increasing the reflection of sunlight so a relatively modest amount of increase in the reflection of sunlight of clouds of particles and misfire chuang produce quite a large guy act in terms of heat energy moving out of your system and emerge brightening the ideas based in the image that you showed on the observations from things that already happened in the system. where particles from emissions and.

natural sources mix with clouds in rays that make them slightly brighter so we need to image here this streaks that you see in the clouds those bright streaks are actually created by the emission from ships and globally today scientists believe that the totality of the particles in admissions not the particle separate greenhouse gases facts but those sort of dirtier kind of pollution particles one of the side effects is that they mix with clouds in this way and globally our are thought to be creating something of a cooling effect that we don't understand very well the idea behind marine cooperate ning is to use a cleaner more benign material articles from ocean spray and sea water to brighten clouds over the ocean that are particularly susceptible to the effect and it's thought although there's a. bit right ok.

so help me get back on track. what do you. if you can hear me thinking now. her yeah right so if you what exciting one thing goes up into the stratosphere to help cool for us theoretically what what are you what is going up there in it in marine cloud brightening materials going into the lower atmosphere so it's coming up from the surface right and in marine cloud great you know proposal is it's insult spring that's generated from seawater sprayed over the ocean into low lying. and so it brightens patches of these clouds in a way that reflects large amounts of sunlight back to space in a way that could produce a global cooling effect thank you for speaking slightly that just may have you it is somewhat like a way ahead of me i'm just like i want to kelly just say angy so this is this is

fascinating this so much research and science going on here why would you be concerned. so i think the 1st thing to realize is that you know get on the spot where you're hardening towards a climate and watch and see and and climate scientists and policymakers have made us all aware of that but the point is that there are 2 camps of art on by that we need to use a legend here in research one camp says you know we don't know enough about engineering and it could potentially be an option that because he was in a climate in which to eat and so we need to know more about it so we need more research the other camp which also puts us of a different set of scientists it consists of environmental policy exploits and also other governments such as a united kingdom that has put out statements saying that come to the source that is available and we're under resourced and if we're not there we feel that need know

enough or they need to make the statement that we don't need more. than the such because it is likely to cause more detriment than benefit to certain sections of the population or regions so the question you really are insulated to engineering research is that they need to be a point in the sea such bybee stop an os gus's brain do we know enough to make the call it on whether we need to progress with the point is so low to ensure it cannot be an indefinite quest to make it a shouldn't despite all the 6. but i don't think it is i think here is what i think we know with real confidence there's an enormous amount of research now over a decade and a half to suggest that the biggest drivers of global climate risk are peak temperatures and they're specially drivers for the world's poorest they kill people they meet people less economically productive and they make it harder to learn literally the one thing we know from every single model no exceptions about solar

geo engineering is it would reduce peak temperatures and do it in a way that's pretty uniform it's not like there's some group of scientists with a model that shows that doesn't trip happen all models show that would happen so that's the potential the only serious paper the looked at the effect of this technology on say global inequality showed that it would dramatically reduce global income inequality and would likely reduce global deaths from heat waves now to be clear there's a big set of risks and the same community does researching this has in a way that i think is wonderful but often the very 1st to raise those risks from the beginning but quantitative answers matter and despite the kind of stuff you heard in the lead and say from the. bowl there is not evidence that the risks are really big compared to the benefits in fact we now have many side of the papers from researchers around the world on many of the key risks you shouldn't trust anyone scientists you should trust a group of people it's that it's surrounds the world and he's not the we know that

each of the rest that we've looked at the air pollution risk from doing this ozone risk cetera there are real and the communities one of the 1st me to talk about this wrist but they look relatively small compared to the benefits and to me that is the reason to take it seriously and i think we have to be very careful about people who live were pretty rich who live far from the equator kind of dismissing this when they're not the ones who are going to suffer the most. i mean not coming here just isn't going to do they get so so i think i mean one of the points the david made is that you know. that means more than suggest that so no judge here think would be beneficial for certain sections i mean it could be beneficial no mention of the monument population in the future if you want it implemented but i think it's important to highlight the law that. basically the research that's being done in this we're joined here in is going to do simulations in climate more news which helps us understand the impact of synergy or ingenuity on the old system so

scientists that work on on these borders have recently also produced people of that list the maid is on site indies in these models and if that's the key how related that it creates giant is in the domain in the impacts of your ingenuity on no clue are regional climate conditions so i mean they don't even with that is the source that's happening right now it's not taking into account an order. that does not mean they're not the only dependably that they're not perfectly dependable is literally true it's the same science evidence that it is a model just as as as we use for understand the impacts of c o 2 so just with where we had c o 2 the atmosphere which is a climate we also can't predict exactly what will happen locally we can't do it for either it's the same underlying science you can't dismiss the science or suggest solar geothermal be useful and accept the science as just climate it's a big risk kelly can i open this conversation up a little bit more because we have people online who also have some questions and

and some thoughts i'm just going to sell yet who is on twitter she says i'd be interested to know who decides if we go ahead with so in a geo engineering or not anti well it is investigate what if there's a 20 percent chance of causing damage who gets to vote ok let's take that child's kennie. so thank you for that question it's a trivia question really believe that this is a field where scientific assessment is really important open science that allows stakeholders from around the world to get the information is really important and that government government engagement is key so in silver lining we work with the u.s. science agencies and the u.s. government to help develop a scientific assessment path and we're hopeful that we can work in the u.n. arena as well to develop a scientific assessment that helps stakeholders and government representatives make

these decisions in an open and constructive way because scientific information is critical to that and i think we disagree with david on the level of certainty that we have around both the i think c. and the risks but that process of driving information so that we can all look at it together is critical i'm just looking. in this rainy is watching on each of us thank you for being part of the show today if we do so no cio engineering how do we force companies to change the harmful practice my concern is people will keep doing the same harmful things over and over again they would touch and they shouldn't take a climate change solution. but it can out. companies will keep doing the wrong things and less governments force them to stop so we won't get climate action unless we have government action to regulate the use of the atmosphere as

a waste dump for our carbon that's what climate activists including me have fought our entire careers for no question it won't just happen automatically we need we need people marching in the streets we need government action that's what's going to change and nothing about really changes that much one way or the other solar general will provide an excuse a false excuse that may be used by some people to try and avoid emissions cuts but it's wrong nothing we know about solar changes the fact that we have to cut emissions eventually to net 0 in order to have a stable climate i'm looking at this in my laptop david will you talk us through its. so that everybody can understand what is going on hand what we're looking at because we're still in that phase right now where we're looking at theory but also trying to do some practical research as well this is part of the practical reset state yeah this is an example of a research project called the stratospheric control perturbation experiment run by

my colleague frank koinange where the objective is to understand where the stratospheric balloon experiment how some aerosols in the stratosphere or cells are just really fine particles that are small if they don't fall very fast how they interact with each other how much they stick together and how particular interaction happens in a plume and if one was ever going to do this actually for real from aircraft with much much larger quantities of material you would need to understand the details of that interaction so it's more to say this isn't a test of whether and also a generational works or not it's a incremental step to understand a little bit better some of the underlying science i want to bring in a voice this important because i think there's a lot of people not quite understanding what is going on but there's still the research that is happening and then why worry about the downside the negative impacts that what might happen if we change how warm or how cool is have a listen have a look. so lou engineering as

a technology that is now being touted as one of the solutions for the climate crisis can have many unintended consequences 1st if it can alter the regional climate thereby affecting not only the country that is using indoor deployment but all to the countries in the neighborhood secondly it has political connotations because it may divide the world into haves and have nots that is countries that have access to the stick knology and the ones that do not have access to it especially in the developing world currently we have security implications as well because this technology can be used but you will thereby creating some sort of insecurity in many regions as our whole list of concerns there coming from the public is just fundamentally you start kelly you pick up is there a. problem with the public being on board with the science this is the science is ahead of the public. so i think there is definitely

a level of suspicion and fear i think in the minds of the public because one is i mean i'll acknowledge that they are a lot of uncertainties that this associated with. and the fact that you know people and communities are there isn't it is that these communities that are forced by by a little bit of the impacts of climate change in not only at this decision making to. read are just going to go so i mean not being why so open you know not being able to understand what is happening in terms of its. problematic is that. well we think it's a really important problem to address but it does take sophisticated resources to study these questions and i think there's a misperception that the research is moving quickly that the total level of research in this area around the world is tiny and there are a handful of researchers and just single digit $1000000.00 per year all over the

world studying us and so we think it's actually quite important that we invest resources where they are in the climate models and the observations in the tiny experiments that will help us understand these things and drive to make that information available and make that participation available to people around the world so for example we're working with amazon web services to put global climate models on the cloud that could look at these questions in a way that would allow researchers in the global south and other parts of the world to study them for themselves so we think the problem is not advancing the science but the problem is creating the resources in access so that everyone can share in it and then have a voice around the table as to what we're going to do here we have a very serious safety situation the current best projections have over 1000000000

people on the planet displaced and so we think this is a way of exploring options to see if we can do better than that. i agree with everything kelly just said and i think i want to add one more point which is it's easy to on any topic like this cherry people have opinions in different directions to extent that we know anything we don't know very much about what regular people actually think there's good evidence from 2 papers that people in more vulnerable climate or climate vulnerable countries are more supportive research on this so it's true both among climate negotiators depending on where they came from and it's true in asian countries if you compare rich and poor poor countries are more supportive and in general it appears actually maybe a little contradict your implication i mean that it may actually be that regular people are more supportive of this than experts i don't think we know that definitely but to the extent that we have empirical evidence from surveys that's the way it appears and is really difficult as kenny was saying it's not like this is a bank a huge area of research it's it was very it was very nice and is becoming less nice

because the climate climate is actually warming up so people are now thinking what else what else can we do here i'm going to show to headlines david i put eyes that is these headlines must but they get they're going to be quite painful for me to look at a controversial test flight aimed at calling the pilot cancel it. sweden council bill gates controversial climate engineering project the support i think you're involved in bill gates has put some investment into it what happened david why was it can so i'm sorry but if you say i got into it right there billions did not interest that's just plain false bill gates was one invest means of financial investment though gates was one of a whole range i guess i do you with david i did say he was one of the investors so that is not it ok yeah but but that was a typically most of it was about a return which is different from philanthropy and he had no control or insight into this think it's kind of important that actually people are saying things that are false sorry to get my back up but i think truth matters absolutely welcome place

containing the project that was going to happen in june has been counseled it was going to be in swedish lapland what happened then and how can we make that connection between what we've been talking about and the council ation of that practical research project so we were only planning to fly there because there's a limited number of places around the world to do these transferability and the. space corporation turns out to be a wonderful partner for doing ballooning so we thought that we might fly with them for that reason and some sammy council indigenous organisation and some environmental groups. produced a very you know were very negative argued that it shouldn't happen and to be clear they actually can see that it has no risk but that their risk is the idea which i think is a consistent view and they argued that it shouldn't happen and swedish government. took that seriously and basically told us to see that they shouldn't fly us that's

what i thank you for sharing that with us that must be quite disappointing for you and the rest of your team at this point but i want to bring in a another point this one comes from catcher mckinnon who's thinking about ok if we get a little bit further along with the science then what do we need to be thinking about . we need to start a public conversation about solar radiation management soon and that conversation needs to be focused on the deep and difficult ethical questions that this new technology raises for us collectively and in particular we need to start talking soon about how to govern research into this new technology. in order to mitigate the risks all of the technology learning ahead and all governance actually i'm just wondering are we there yet i know you have thoughts they've got an issue they were talking serious about governance 30 years ago i mean when i 1st became involved in

this i and many other people have argued the biggest problem is governance and we need to begin governor discussions are hard we need to begin the conversations early in order to have any chance of making reasonable decisions when the real decisions come out happy decisions to be clear they shouldn't be made by scientists they need be made in some organized way that is as legitimate and democratic as possible but that can all happen in a 2nd and just about to wrap up the final thoughts that day so i think it's important for people to ignore that these elections will do engineering god and he is being dominated by a group of their midst institutions that is based in the globe not so the only constructive we've award on this is to establish an international governance mcgann ism that is now decided not to international participation ok thanks sanjay i would also just right at the end of the show here you poor up a point that needed a new show to interest to talk about that point but thank you anthony for ending on why the debate will continue until kelly davis on the chair thanks for your

comments really appreciate i seen eckstein take every play.

it's. a weekly critique of the stories hitting the headlines the news media have been left to sort through mixed messages on a quite complex story from mainstream to street journalism and maybe one generated if you get me to the cheers send it to the wall keep shooting what's going on exposing real world threats to objective it's often the bombing part sounds from moscow earth tunnels and people where restaurants listening post covers the way music is covered on the jersey you know. i'm harry davies and they came billy and western australia and rented in his communities it's hanging out with scientists to create a new upright to marine conservation for the group where you learn before you even

but just. dump on the boat. i'm often doing you reporting from brazil you and your vaunted tribe is protecting by the versity defending themselves against illegal invaders brought it on al-jazeera. form. a day of rage across the aisle flood the west bank and israel turns violent the fall killed in the protests. the strike was called in support of people under an israeli bombardment in gaza. blown down jordan the sub-zero life and death also coming up what is the e.u. and its business.