dismissed suggestions the sudden rise in migrants arrivals is linked to a diplomatic route. last month morocco reacted angrily when it emerged that brahimi the head of the policy front had been allowed into spain for coverage 19 treatment the algeria backed group has fought for decades for western sahara as independence from morocco analysts had warned the row over carli could push the moroccan government to limit cooperation over illegal migration and other issues brussels is now urging it to stop any more people trying to reach spanish territory the most important thing now is that morocco continues to commit to prevent a regular departure and that those that do not have the right to stay are orderly and effectively returned spain says it is expelling all those who vented suitor illegally but it's not clear if that applies to unaccompanied migrants. who are usually allowed to remain. 0.

the headlines this hour on al-jazeera rails assault on gaza continues as we wait also this building we see in the middle of shot there it has had as they called a warning tap sent in by the israeli military to warn people that their building is likely to be brought down we are waiting to see if and when that will happen a residential tower in gaza city now is a saying the assault on gaza really did continue at pace more than 100 bombs and shells were fired through the night and into this morning at least 122 palestinians have been killed since the offensive began. possessions are under way for palestinians killed during the latest told the largest general strike in decades on tuesday 4 people were killed across the occupied west bank more from.

residents of a complex of 2 buildings 16 story buildings were told to evacuate building now that's a building that. by and large residential building each floor has about 6 apartments and so you can imagine now the panic of those families trying to leave as quick as possible maybe grabbing some belongings because they were they don't know whether they will be ever be able to return to their homes or whether that building will be flattened. with other buildings in the days before and in other news india where coronavirus deaths have hit a record high again more than 4 and a half 1000 recorded in the last 24 hours a number of new cases though coming down after reaching the highs of more than 400002 weeks ago.

we were talking and now they're attacking everyone in myanmar do you regret words like that. absolutely nigeria with a woman president it would be great meets with global news makers and the stories that matter. on the strain could it be looking out the actually helped the temperature on. what i mean. you could have. terrio pumped into ass stratosphere that material could reflect the sun's rays or solar energy all the way back to the sun meaning that we down here a kept core that is a very basic rudimentary understanding of solar geo engineering there are pros there are cons there are known as an unknown there is a debate let's take

a look should we be pursuing solar geo engineering the answer is that we just don't know what we do know most of the impacts of climate change are serious and getting worse and we're not doing all we need to do to address the climate crisis so we do engineering might be a useful part of a portfolio of responses but also on hills a wide range of poorly understood risks or will this one research program can help us understand those risks and whether or not salute your engineering deserves a spot in the portfolio of climate change responses solid you and you knowing is a really dangerous idea it is messing with the global climate system that is basically just about suppressing some of the symptoms of climate change it is not doing anything about the root causes and it comes with tremendous risks for global communities and ecosystems so instead is betting on high risk techno fixes

what we really should be doing is get out of fossil fuels that means. and gas and not be expanding any of that it's destruction and there's really no way we can geoengineering our way out of the climate crisis some of i guess a nodding their head some of i guess is shaking their heads let the debate forget hello david hello angele and i can be really nice have you on the stream david reintroduce yourself to international audience. i'm david keith them professor at harvard in public policy and also maturing i worked on this topic i worked on climate for about 30 years nice to have a hell of a hindu while what you do have the mind and thank you family for having me on the show many ms i'm on i'm an energy policy consulting based in new delhi in the uk i have been to young people and silage engineering my interest in the space is going to be a bushing that interested in climate change and the sort of so you should that be

looking at that. great to have it and can i please introduce yourself to international audience watching right now hard for me it's good to be a year my name is kelly ones or i'm the executive director of a 3 year old nonprofit organization called sober lining and our focus in silver lining is near term climate risk so we drive research we were government stakeholders numbers of the public our youth organizations to look at expanding our portfolio of options to address climate risk in the next 30 to 40 years where we may house and gaps that might not be addressed in other way. thank you kathy thank you thank you david and audience i know you have thoughts on this on you've got opinions and maybe they're a couple of things that you want to ask. guests jump into the comment section and you take a big part of this discussion they idea kelly and david that geo engineering

may well be a climate change solution david you go fast. so solution is a loaded word and that picks up exactly on the critique you heard which is the idea that it's the sole solution nobody in this debate who's remotely sensible things it's a solution i'd just put that off you should write it maybe is a way to substantially reduce risks over the next generation in ways that we cannot achieve by emissions cuts alone so maybe that the combination of emissions cuts and solar geoengineering could be significantly safer particularly for the world's most vulnerable that would be emissions cuts alone but no single thing as a solution even emissions cuts alone are not a solution because we clearly need adaptation a complicated problem like climate change has many different things we need one of which may be this technology and one of the things that we found as we were putting

this show together the stream show together was trying to find out or of the different ways that maybe you could reflect off the sun the sun's radiation the energy so you could cool actually if that was possible i'm looking here on my laptop knowing how bright science feasibility and applying for a reset can you tell us what moving out brightening is. certainly and i appreciate your characterization we don't tend to refer to these techniques as blocking the sun but rather increasing the reflection of sunlight so a relatively modest amount of increase in the reflection of sunlight of clouds of particles and this fear can produce quite a large akai act in terms of heat energy moving out of your system an immersion cloud brightening the ideas based in the image that you showed on the observations from things that already happened in the system. where particles from emissions and

. natural sources mix with clouds in ways that make them slightly brighter so we need an image here this streaks that you see in the clouds those bright streaks are actually created by the emission from ships and globally today scientists believe that the totality of the particles in a mission is not the particle separate greenhouse gases facts but those are the dirtier kind of pollution particles one of the side effects is that they mix with clouds in this way and globally are are thought to be creating something of a cooling effect that we don't understand very well the idea behind marine cooperate ning is to use a cleaner more benign material articles from ocean spray and sea water to brighten clouds over the ocean that are particularly susceptible to the effect and it's thought although there's a fair. bit right ok i also had

a wait so help me get back on track. what do you. if you can hear me thinking now i want to encourage i am all right so if you what exciting one thing goes up into the stratosphere to help cool for us theoretically what what are you what is going up there in it in marine cloud brightening materials going into the lower atmosphere so it's coming up from the surface right and in marine cloud great you know proposal is it's insult spring that's generated from seawater sprayed over the ocean into low lying. and so it brightens patches of these clouds in a way that reflects large amounts of sunlight back to space in a way that could produce a global cooling effect thank you for speaking slightly that is the audience i would like a way ahead of me i'm just i want to kelly just say actually so this is this is

fascinating this so much research and science going on here why would you be concerned. so i think the 1st thing to realize is that you know get on the spot where you're hardening towards a climate and watch and see and and climate scientists and policymakers have made us all aware of that but the point is that there are 2 camps of art on by that we need to push to salute you and your research one camp says that you know we don't know enough about engineering and it could potentially be an option that people see want in a climate in which to see and so we need to know more about it so we need more research the other camp which also puts us of a different set of scientists it consists of environmental policy exploits and also other governments such as a united kingdom that has put out statements saying that grounded the source that is available and we're under resourced and if we're not there we feel that need

know enough or they need to make the statement that we don't need more. such because it is likely to cause more detriment than benefit to certain sections of the population are so the question you really are insular to engineering research is that they need to be a point in the sea such maybe stop an os gus's brain do we know enough to make the skull on whether we need to progress with the point is so low to ensure it cannot be an indefinite quest to make it a go between shouldn't despite all the. but i don't think it is i think here is what i think we know with real confidence there's an enormous amount of research now over a decade and a half to suggest that the biggest drivers of global climate risk are peak temperatures and they're specially drivers for the world's poorest they kill people they make people less economically productive and they make it harder to learn literally the one thing we know from every single model no exceptions about solar

geo engineering is it would reduce peak temperatures and do it in a way that's pretty uniform it's not like there's some group of scientists with a model that shows that doesn't trip happen all models show that would happen so that's the potential the only serious paper the looked at the effect of this technology on say global inequality showed that it would dramatically reduce global income inequality and would likely reduce global deaths from the waves now to be clear there's a big set of risks and the same community does researching this has in a way that i think is wonderful but often the very 1st to raise those risks from the beginning but quantitative answers matter and despite the kind of stuff you heard in the lead and say from the different i recall there is not evidence that the risks are really big compared to the benefits in fact we now have many side of the papers from researchers around the world on many of the key risks you shouldn't trust anyone scientists you should trust to a group of people that's that that's surrounds the world and he's not the we know

that each of the rest that we've looked at the air pollution risk from doing this the ozone risk cetera they're real and the communities one of the 1st me to talk about this wrist but they look relatively small compared to the benefits and to me that is the reason to take it seriously and i think we have to be very careful about people who live were pretty rich who live far from the equator kind of dismissing this when they're not the ones who are going to suffer the most. i mean not coming here oh yeah this is going to they get so so i think i mean one of the points they need they've made is that you know. that means more than suggest that so no judge hearing could be beneficial for certain sections i mean it could be another specials on the monument population in the future if you want to implement it but i think it's important to highlight the law that. basically the resource that's being done in this we're joined here in is being done to simulations in climate more dues which helps us understand the impact of synergy or ingenuity on

the old system so scientists that work on these mortgages have recently also produced people of that list that made it on so i didn't use in these mortgages and if that's the highlighted that it creates jalen does in the government in the impacts of your ingenuity on no clue are regional climate conditions so i mean they don't even with that is the source that's happening right now it's not taking into account an order. that does not mean they're not the only dependent. that they're not perfectly dependable is literally true it's the same science evidence that it is a model just. as we use for understand the impacts of c o 2 so just with when we had c o 2 to the atmosphere which is a climate we also can't predict exactly what will happen locally we can't do it for either it's the same underlying science you can't dismiss the science to suggest solar geothermal would be useful and i accept the science is just climate is a big risk kelly can i open this conversation up a little bit more because we have people online who also have some questions and

and some thoughts i'm just going to sell yet who is on twitter she says i be interested to know who decides if we go ahead with 7 of geoengineering or not the entire well it is investigate what if there's a 20 percent chance of causing damage who gets to vote ok let's take that child's kennie. so thank you for that question sort of that's a trivia question really believe that this is a field where scientific assessment is really important open science that allows stakeholders from around the world to look at the information is really important and that government government engagement is key so in silver lining we work with the u.s. science agencies and the u.s. government to help develop a scientific assessment path and we're hopeful that we can work in the u.n. arena as well to develop a scientific assessment path that helps stakeholders and government representatives

make these decisions in an open and constructive way because scientific information is critical to that and i think we disagree with david on the level of certainty that we have around both the of the sea and the risks but that process of driving information so that we can all look at it together is critical i'm just looking. in this rainy is watching on each of us thank you for being part of the show today if we do so no geo engineering how do we force companies to change the harmful practice my concern is people will keep doing the same harmful things over and over again they would touch and they shouldn't take a climate change solution. but it can have. companies will keep doing the wrong things and less governments force them to stop so we won't get climate action unless we have government action to regulate the use of the atmosphere is

a waste dump for our carbon that's what climate activists including me have fought our entire careers for no question it won't just happen automatically we need we need people marching the streets we need government action that's what's going to change and nothing about really changes that much one way or the other solar general will provide an excuse a false excuse that may be used by some people to try and avoid emissions cuts but it's wrong nothing we know about solar changes the fact that we have to cut emissions eventually to net 0 in order to have a stable climate i'm looking at my laptop david where you talk us through its. so that everybody can understand what is going on ham what we're looking at because we're still in that phase right now where we're looking at theory but also trying to do some practical research as well this is part of the practical reset state yes this is an example of a research project called the stratospheric controlled perturbation experiment run by my colleague frank koinange where the objective is to understand where the

stratospheric balloon experiment how some aerosols in the stratosphere or cells are just really fine particles that are small if they don't fall very fast how they interact with each other how much they stick together and how particular interaction happens in a plume and if one was ever going to do this actually for real from aircraft with much much larger quantities of material you would need to understand the details of that interaction so it's more to say this isn't a test of whether or not or generational works or not it's a incremental step to understand a little bit better some of the underlying zines i want to bring in a voice this important because i think there's a a lot of people not quite understanding what is going on but there's still the research that is happening and then why worry about the downside the negative impacts that what might happen if we change how warm or how cool is have a listen have a look. solar engineering as

a technology that is now being touted as one of the solutions for the climate crisis can have many unintended consequences 1st for that it can alter the regional climate there were affecting not only the country that is using indoor deployment but on to the countries in the neighborhood secondly it has political connotations because it may divide the world into haves and have nots that is countries that have access to the stick knology and the ones that do not have access to it especially the developing world totally may have security implications as well because this technology can be used but you will thereby creating some sort of insecurity in many regions as our whole list of concerns there coming from the public is there i'm just fundamentally you start kelly you pick up is there a. problem with the public being on board with the science this is the science is ahead of the public. so i think there is definitely

a level of suspicion and fear either in the minds of the public because one is that new i'll acknowledge that they are a lot of uncertainties that associated with. and the fact that you know people and communities are there isn't it is that these communities that are forced by a. little bit of the impacts of climate change they're not only at this decision making to. read these are just going to go so i mean not being why so open you know not being able to understand what is happening in terms of it's. problematic is that. well we think it's a really important problem to address but it does takes a just a kid resources to study these questions and i think there's a misperception that the research is moving quickly that the total level of research in this area around the world it's tiny and there are a handful of researchers and just single digit $1000000.00 per year all over the

world studying us and so we think it's actually quite important that we invest resources where they are in the climate models and the observations in the tiny experiments that will help us understand these things and drive to make that information available and make that participation available to people around the world so for example we're working with amazon web services to put global climate models on the cloud that could look at these questions in a way that would allow researchers in the global south and other parts of the world to study them for themselves so we think the problem is not advancing the science but the problem is creating the resources in access so that everyone can share in it and then have a voice around the table as to what we're going to do here we have a very serious safety situation the current best projections have over 1000000000

people on the planet displaced and so we think this is a way of exploring options to see if we can do better than that. i agree with everything kelly just said and i think i want to add one more point which is it's easy to on any topic like this cherry people have opinions in different directions to extent that we know anything we don't know very much about what regular people actually think there's good evidence from 2 papers that people in more vulnerable climate more climate vulnerable countries are more supportive of research on this so it's true both among climate negotiators depending on where they came from and it's true in asian countries if you compare rich and poor poor countries are more supportive and in general it appears actually maybe a little contradict your implication i mean that it may actually be that regular people are more supportive of this than experts i don't think we know that definitely but to the extent that we have empirical evidence from surveys that's the way it appears and it's really difficult as kelly was saying it's not like this is a bank huge area of research it's it was very it was very nice and is becoming less

nice because the climate is actually warming up so people are now thinking what else what else can we do here i'm going to show to headlines david i put eyes that has these headlines musk but they but they're going to be quite painful for you to look at controversial test flight aimed at calling the pilot cancel it. sweden council bill gates controversial climate engineering project is supported that you were involved in bill gates has put some investment into it what happened david why was it so i'm sorry but if you say i got into it right there billions did not invest that's just plain false bill gates was one invest means of financial investment though gates was one of a whole range i guess i do you it's not david i did say he was one of the investors so it's not it ok yeah but but that was a typically most of it was about her return which is different from philanthropy and he had no control or insight into this think it's kind of important that actually people are saying things that are false sorry to get my back up but i

think truth matters absolutely welcome place containing the project that was going to happen in june has been counseled it was going to be in swedish lapland what happened then and how can we make that connection between what we've been talking about and the council ation of that practical research project so we were only planning to fly there because there's a limited number of places around the world to do these transferability and the. space corporation turns out to be a wonderful partner for doing ballooning so we thought that we might fly with them for that reason and some sammy council indigenous organisation and some environmental groups. produced a very you know were very negative argued that it shouldn't happen and to be clear they actually can see that it has no risk but that their risk is the idea which i think is a consistent view and they argued that it shouldn't happen and swedish government. took that seriously and basically told us to see that they shouldn't fly us that's

what i thank you for sharing that with us that must be quite disappointing for you and the rest of your team at this point but i want to bring in a another point this one comes from catcher mckinnon who's thinking about ok if we get a little bit further along with the science then what do we need to be thinking about . we need to start a public conversation about solar radiation management soon and that conversation needs to be focused on the deep and difficult ethical questions that this new technology raises for us collectively and in particular we need to start talking soon about how to govern research into this new technology. in order to mitigate the risks all of the technology learning ahead of governance i j i'm just wondering are we very yet i know you have thoughts they've got an issue they were talking serious about governance 30 years ago i mean when i 1st became involved in

this i and many other people have argued the biggest problem is governance and we need to begin governor discussions are hard we need to begin the conversations early in order to have any chance of making reasonable decisions when the real decisions come up at the decisions to be clear they shouldn't be made by scientists they need be made in some organized way that is legitimate and democratic as possible but that can all happen in a 2nd and just about to wrap up that final thoughts that day so i think it's important for people to ignore that these are times you know geoengineering crowd and he is being dominated by a group of their midst institutions that is based in the globe not so the only constructive we've award on this is to establish an international governance mcgann ism that is now decided not to international participation ok thanks sanjay i would also just right at the end of the show you you poor up a point that needed a new show to interest to talk about that point but thank you anthony for ending on why the debate will continue i actually carry david on the chair thanks for your

comments really appreciate i seen eckstein take every play. covered willing to leave has compounded the homelessness crisis in l.a. abandoned impoverished families a force of radical change she decided to say hey we're going to stand out as a human right by claiming properties left vacant by the state the 1st thing i did was the locks my duty is to my daughter's safe that means breaking the law then i want to do that for one shelter in place ballet's fight for housing on al-jazeera. a father should be a protector ready. he was her tormentor. betrayed for years she carries the evidence inside her. but will this

be enough to find justice in afghanistan's patriarchal society. a 1000 girls like me. a witness documentary on al-jazeera. each and every one of us have the responsibility. to change our persons but for the better. now. we have to fight for character and if we could do this experiment and if part of us you could increase just a little bit that would be worth doing and waiting out any idea that it would become a magnet who is incredibly raspy she was there are asking for women to get 50 percent representation in the constituent assembly here are these people pick up to collect the signedness say the reasoning this is extremely important so is it the way the

city. where. we need to take america to try to bring people together trying to deal with people who are left behind. israel carries out more air strikes on gaza after a major wave of protests against the attacks and people out on the streets of the occupied west bank this wednesday as preparations begin for the funerals of victims of israeli violence. come all santa maria here in doha with those stories and the rest of the day's news on al-jazeera oh.