we still don't have a event at the girl monument dedicated to the founding fathers of the 1st republic . the general has a new resting place in to valley seas kantian, his nation's identity renewed his military legend restored robin's 1st year walker al jazeera tbilisi. i recall have ortho one of the world's best selling books has died age 91. he published the children's book, the very hungry catholic back in 1969 and sold more than 40000000 copies and was translated into 16 languages. he also wrote and illustrated 75 other titles. ah, this is al jazeera, these you are told stories,

how much the political leader in gaza is warning a religious war. if israel persists with its policies around alex and mos occupied east jerusalem and elsewhere in the palestinian territory. yeah, he has sin while also accused us sex. your state anthony blanket of trying to stone palestinian division. lincoln has been in egypt and jordan off to intensive talks with israeli, and palestinian leaders, the tor gave a booth to the israel. huh sci fi. and lincoln says he now hopes to build on that. and i'm on my conversation with his majesty touched on again a range of topics including the urgent work we need to do together to meet you mandatory and reconstruction needs and gaza while ensuring that the palestinian people not mos benefit from this assistance. we discuss jordan's essential role as a custodian of muslim holy places and the importance of preserving the historic status, quote attributes on all the sites. jordan also plays

a vital role in the west bank. the u. s. re engages with the policy people in reopens are constantly jerusalem, will have a lot of work to do together as well. shell has been all into more than double. it's called the emission cuts by the end of the decade. environmentalists say the dutch ruling lab implications for energy companies worldwide. the un security council has used an emergency meeting call for the immediate release of molly's transitional leaders. vice president can see me. one of the ministry officers who lead last year, who has ousted and arrested the prime minister and the president that currently being held in a military base in the town of cassey, one of the boys, his representative says they have resigned from that position as headlines and he continues here analysis era after the bottom line, me ah

ah, hi, i'm steve clements and i have a question with the intense fighting pause then hopefully over. is there any hope for real peace between the palestinians and israelis? let's get to the bottom line. ah. about 30 years ago in norwegian power a couple of had a crazy notion of basically deciding on their own to bring together palestinian and israeli officials to make a peace deal. in our slow, there were slow formal negotiations already going on, but they decided to do their own thing, and they actually pulled it off back then talking face to face was not only blasphemous, it was illegal, and america was against it. so everything was done in secret, and despite them mistrust, the frustration and the walk out in the end,

the historic also records were signed in 1993, with much fanfare at the time. many people around the world thought that the deal would lead to a sustainable piece after decades of conflict. but as we saw earlier this month, the 2 sides are nowhere near an end of the violence and heartbreak of so many killed and living in fear. and the offload deal, which was supposed to be a temporary fix, leading to a permanent deal has expired. today we're looking at that deal from 2 angles. one is the lasting impact of our slow on the palestinians, and israelis for good and not so good. and the other is the high drama of the secret talks themselves, and the personal stories of the characters involved were joined by bartlett sheer, one of america's most prolific theater. in oper directors, he's the director of the new movie called off flow, which started as a play in new york written by j t rogers a few years ago. it's based on the true story of palestinian is really negotiations in the norwegian capital. and it comes out this week and the on a boot to

a palestinian lawyer who served as legal advisor to the palestinian negotiating team back where there used to be negotiations with israel based on the author records. and finally, daniel levy, a former advisor negotiator for the israeli government, who is the lead, is really author of the geneva accord, which was supposed to start where the also accords ended. he's now president of the us middle east project. it's a real honor and privilege to have all of you on board. but let me start with the movie that's coming out. bartlet, this conflict has been raging for decades, and i don't know about your, your, you know, timing and other things. but you've got the story of all slow. how it came together coming out right now amidst real horror intention yet again in israel palestine. what drew you to this story and what drew you to sort of telling it now? well i actually, i live in new york and i happen to be friends with my. my daughter, best friend in 2nd grade was the daughter of tyra larson, in motor fuel. and so i would go and sit at soccer matches and the 2 people stars

and the 2 people in the movie, i would go and sit at soccer, matches and hear stories of middle east peace. and from my point of view, it was extraordinary theater. in a way and introduced tire to j. t rogers, who wrote the play and the film and away we went, you know, i don't know if a lot of people know, i mean general lay people know of us. so, but when you, when you perform this in new york in tel aviv and you know, other places london, how is it received? is it received this? wow, that was a historic anomaly. but it's really a disappointment because they didn't move forward. well we, we didn't, we didn't one way or another as if we were trying to make a point about offline working or not working. we are telling a history story, a history play as you would find in shakespeare. and we're trying to tell the story what happens when complete enemies can come into a room and trying to resolve their conflicts. and that was the basis. so when we 1st, when it 1st came out in 2016,

most of the audiences were learning about that. but they were talking about democrats and republicans. and when we did it in london, they all, they talked about was fax it. so it was more about how to, how, what the larger question is of how to get hugely opposing and hateful forces into a room. and is it possible for them to resolve their differences? well, let me go to diona, enter daniel, and ask them they, these 2 great individuals negotiated for their governments in the wake of os. hello deanna. let me just ask you what did did, did off flow, which was supposed to be the low bar, not the high bar. was it worth the effort back then? or did it set up false hopes? me? how do you look at oslo with regard to where we are today in the role that you, people like you and daniel tried to move it forward but, but ultimately we haven't moved that far forward for pounds demands. the issue of

our slow is not a documentary film. it's actually a horror movie. and the reason that it's a horror movie is because this wasn't just a question of setting a bar, but it has actually changed the course of history for palestinians to the negative . what it meant was that it wasn't just a question of people coming into a room and sitting down and resolving differences as bartlett had said, but ignored in math. the fact that palestinians have been living under a very brutal military occupation and have been denied their freedom. and so the whole formulation of off low recreated history spawn history on it hadn't been law and it's had such that palestinians are now 4th to negotiate with their oppressor, with their occupier. rather than getting the world to put pressure on israel to end that military occupation and the lasting effects of that are we still feel to, to today everything from the dividing up of the land and to various areas to the

establishment of the palestinian authority that isn't its own independent government to the continued settlement expansion that we see to this very day to the settler take over that we are even experiencing now 27 years later to the fact that we have a palestinian authority that is had in effect served as israel security sub contractor, these are the last thing effect for palestinians of the, of the also course, it's not, they didn't produce anything positive. it actually produce way to produce everything negative. thank you for that, daniel. i love to get your take because you had you negotiated. you wrote the deal that was supposed to come after our slow and we saw the political rug in israel primarily be ripped, right from beneath it. as, as politics in israel moved in a very different direction. i'm just interested not only in how you see that went before, but as you look forward and just listening beyond and basically saying,

hey, this is a horror story, not a documentary. how do you see, what are the pieces are that can be moved around then you think could maybe move us into, you know, somewhat a better direction. yes, thanks steve. i mean, i think that pulling of the rug was partly for the very reasons deanna just outline for us and whatever the intentionality is, all the players at the time the that i imagine the movie goes into. in retrospect, what dana is described for us is the lived reality of palestinians. and unfortunately, the flip side of that only israeli side was also kind of sent the signal. you could get peace on the cheek. you could get this without really engaging with de occupation with palestinian

writes with international law. so where are you the challenge today is to and learn also. it's not about reviving or slow. it's how do we definitively drawer a line under that and it's important to remember the all slow was supposed to lead to a 5 year period. there was a 5 year time horizon by which all the final status issues as we call all the things jerusalem settlements, borders, statehood refugees, crucially had to be result that's coming up to 30 years ago. if anything has passed its expiry date by a quarter of a century, it probably stinks to high heaven and that's the reality of all slow today unfortunately. but when you, when you made this cell, one of the things that really struck me were that you, you brought in real palestinian actors and performers,

real israeli actors and performers. you could sit a see and feel the tension between them as they negotiated this, as they were living, you know, essentially what, what, what dana and daniel were just talking about as they saw all of us. but i guess the other element that really intrigued me about the film was that it was just such a weird side show that everybody needed in that moment. and i'm wondering, and i, and i sort of say, you know, the waffles and the, you know, breakdown and because everybody needed something to happen in that moment. i just isn't your insight about this. as you look at the conflict to day, do you think there's any prospect of another story out there? maybe i know it's not your field, but wondering whether side shots like this are possible amidst real horror. my sense of what offers in the story were telling is that it was meant to be the beginning of a process which was thwarted almost as soon as it started. so the larger idea of

getting people in the room to talk is good. but there are 2 things about also one is the, the principle of getting people in the room to make changes is incredibly valid. no matter how you look at it. but the real differences, great leadership, are there people among the leadership who are willing to make the kinds of sacrifices that are necessary for real peace? and without that ingredient, as well as the off love, the idea of off low. there's no there's, there's not going to work. so that's where it's not just one side of the other. and we don't try to argue that in the film. it's, it's, there's a huge, huge human rights issue. and huge question that has to be addressed right now. and we're only telling a history story, we're not pretending to say something specific about now, except that there was least a glimmer of an effort to make a change. well, let me, let me ask you one of the people in that film that intrigued me. the characters that was being played with yoshi bailing and israeli politician who kind of kept this secret from his boss for quite

a while. daniel levy daniels here. daniel worked at the right hand of us. he, bale and daniel, are there any yo see valence brewing in the israeli political system today? deanna, are there any palestinian leaders and we haven't had elections for, you know, over a decade mahmoud abbas just delayed elections again. are there, are there any stars rising that would that would give us an opportunity. say well, we've got a chance for reset because they're different people. but daniel, are there any yoshi balance? well, of course individuals and leadership matters. there are no, you'll see billions is the short answer, but the longer on so raised those things also tend to be contingent under circumstances of 0 accountability for israel and maximum. impunity for israel circumstances guaranteed,

unfortunately by american policy international policy in particular, american policy. under those circumstances, you'll see bailey's others are unlikely to emerge. and the crucial thing here is, remember that those folks coming to a root and i think that the palestinian side did not necessarily represent what it was supposed to represent or play a hand strongly. and the israeli side could have been more forward leaning more courageous. but crucially, they come into a room against the backdrop of a power relationship. and if we don't understand this in the context of an occupying power and an occupied people, and if we haven't addressed that a symmetry where no flow happened, the bushes administration, but just on something very unusual. visa be israel, a loan guarantee. the gulf war had just sent certain signals to israel. i'm most

crucially. the palestinians had been through the 1st intifada, which deanna can speak to much more than i in a way the piano stole some of the close of that into bottle. but crucial here is, does the powerful party have a reason, an incentive structure to drive towards compromise them? right now israel does not have unfortunately because of the impunity and indulgence it is recorded. in john, i'd love to hear what you think is brewing in the palestinian political system. but listening to daniel, it seems to me that that is the rationale then on the palestinian side for violence to basically create cos that become hard for israel to, to, to accept and of force action. am i, am i wrong? but when it comes to, again, this issue of leadership, we have to understand that this is a one way occupation. it's not, i'm not occupying televi by not occupying israel. it's the israelis who are

occupying palestinian territory. and that's why it's so imperative to stop getting out of this mindset that somehow there needs to be 2 equal parties that there are 2 parties, it's one party, it's one party that's doing the, occupying another party that's on the receiving end of that occupation. and, and so if we're talking about lack of leadership, the lack of leadership comes from the fact that there is no israeli leader that is willing to and it's military rule. and there's no international leader that's willing to force israel and military rule. and so when you have this situation and you have an framework in which palestinians are left defenceless, left with it, with israel taking over their, their land, taking over their lives. of course, people are going to go out and defend themselves. and this is why it's so important for us to really make sure that we understand this context. this isn't about getting to people into a room and shaking hands and then throwing away old old,

old anger, et cetera. this is about an ongoing military occupation. the denial of freedom and it's a one way occupation that israel could easily undo if it took a decision, a political decision to do that. but it's never taken that political decision. and sadly, the international community has never taken that decision either. it's abdicated it's responsibility. and somehow turn this into a both sides of them. there aren't 2 side, there's one side. i want to come back to barton a moment, but what you just said is that there's a, you know, a lot of negligence and dereliction internationally. let me just ask you about the by the administration does come in succeeded the trump administration succeeded jared, questioners work on the abraham accords and others. and you know, daniel levy and i have known each other for decades. and i've always wondered when the moment would occur when israel, when israel palestine issues were less of strategic consequence to america, they may be of moral consequence. but when you see other arab states now

normalizing with israel, with this problem not solved, deanna. does that mean that this is going to essentially be, you know, a permanent ulcer that gets unresolved? no, i don't think so. like we've seen that with the trump administration. they tried to do we palestine under the rug. they tried to do away with it. they made sure that arab governments ended up normalizing with israel. but let's be clear, these are our governments. these are not the air people. and we still see around the world as we saw with, with the recent bombing campaign that israel carried out against, against the gaza. strip and the and by the way, in the shootings that were happening in the lock, some off that we saw that there are millions of, of supporters around the world's pushing for palestinian to be free and pushing for palestinian liberation. so they may try to think that they can sweep it under the rug, but of course this simply continues to raise its head. i think that what we're beginning

to witness is as the, in the worth of when my friends were beginning to see the cracks in the wall were beginning to those cracks, travel up the wall. and it's, i think, just a question of time before we see that international public opinion and the shifting policy. daniel, what you and i have talked about facts on the ground for years. in fact, on the ground to day are there is a raging conflict. i talked to senator chris murphy just the other day and, you know, he admitted that our tools in our leverage in this conflict are, are, are thinning and getting smaller, not larger. how do you see the facts on the ground? what can be moved? well, i somewhat dispute the idea that american leverage is spinning. i think american willingness to use its leverage remains as limited as it was. i think you spoke about the strategic significance to the us. i think in that respect things may well have shifted. i think the strategic significance today is much more

difficulty for a biden administration. seeking to say, hey, america is back and america is back means we stand up for international law values, human rights. and yet this is how we treat the palestinian situation. this is how we treat israel, denial of palestinian right? i think that's a very bad look. and then there's an internal domestic political moving the conversation from the shifting especially inside the democrat party. what i want to make clear is you asked about normalization. and here i think something important happened under trump, which has changed much, hasn't changed. trump took the normal playbook, which wasn't working. and he said,

i'm actually going to accelerate this is really sensitive. impunity and take it to a place where these railways actually started telling themselves we've won. it's just a matter of reading the palestinians, the terms of surrender. partly that was the normalization of course, which would never designed, of course, to help the palestinians situation. what those did was, again it, it accelerated these trend inside israel. and what israel has woke up to the ana suggested in this latest round of findings is not just about gods with what happened in east jerusalem. what happened inside israel itself with the palestinian citizens of protest in the west bank, palestinian refugees and others in jordan coming to the border the attempt to desegregate an atomize, the palestinians, and defeat them has failed. and the failure of the oslo process means the if we have a circle back to something, and i believe we will, it's just as likely, if not more, to be more of an equal,

right. struggle about what this one physical space is ro is created. looks like a house on south africa than it is going to be 2 parties like holes. lo, negotiating separation, that's a full line which has shifted only just ask you bart, whether in your discussions with mon, i'm sure i'm sure you're still speaking with her. does she herself think that was a completely unique moment or does she think that there is a role for players that are outside of the classic formal negotiations camp? because you know that the process is not yielded much success. i do think that diplomats in general, like, like mona, are always seeking ways to create other solutions rather than force. but that's, so that's the thing that they've always spoken to me about. but they were trying to be facilitators have changed. they weren't trying to pretend it was up to them to make the change itself. thank you, but generally just ask you about the palestinian side in negotiations for

a moment. i'm. i'm sure you work with cyber archive. delete sy, barracka who died this past year of cove. it daniel introduced me to him in ramallah years ago. and i think that the, the question is, is there, i remember talking to me was just sort of seemed exhausted all the time with the middle east piece of business as he called it, of, of this ongoing process that would never have an n. as in negotiator, looking at the new new team of folks that are trying to move this forward, do are there, are there ways to enhance their power? in this process, we used to have a cor tab. there used to be other nations. it involved. is it better the mike, should the united states pull back and let other stakeholders come in? what are your thoughts about answering up palestinian leverage in this process? if that's possible? i think that we need to move away from the to dreaded words peace process. and instead, be focusing on different mechanisms to hold israel to account to,

to make sure that israel pay the price for continuing to deny palestinians their freedom. and this is why what we're seeing now, instead of people who are rushing to get involved in peace process moves are instead people who are trying to push for boy cuts of israel divestment from israel and economic sanctions to be placed on israel as well as of all the israel legally accountable through the international criminal court. i firmly believe that we tried that route of the peace process and all that it yielded was a level of both sides of them. and in fact, rather than both sides of them, it was mostly that palestinians had to swallow whatever it is that israel was doing and simply accepted. and we're now not at that stage anymore. we're at a stage now where people are saying enough is enough. we live for generations under israel's military rule. it's time for us to have our freedom and if it means pushing for boycotts divestment sanction,

that's the route that we're going to be taking. and it's just a question of time before we see that this palestinian leadership either fall or ends up ends up taking on that same language and pushes for divestment the same way that the amc did in south africa. daniel, i want to get the last few seconds to you to see if you were to change any of the elements as you look at the real mass that we're looking at the world as it is right now, not the world. we like it to be. what would you change to get us into a different course? what we've been talking about, which is accountability and cost free occupation on these railey side. because the alternative to violence isn't always negotiations. you're not always in a negotiation because you can negotiate the sensation of all guilty. but sometimes the alternative is non violent protest. it generating, acquiring leverage, it's sanctioning aside that is violating what it should be held to under international law. last, the crucial missing ingredient. moment hopefully,

in another period, it will look different, but that's where we're stuck right now. maximum. impunity breeds bad behavior and bad strategy, which is also bad for is re well, fascinating conversation and sobering. i'd like to thank you all for being with us in newton, massachusetts deanna bu, to former legal advisor to the palestinian peace negotiations in london. daniel levy form israeli government advisor and peace negotiator. and with me here in the studio bartlett's year, the director of os low, the feature film, which premier is this saturday may 29th on h, b o c. it. so what's the bottom line? if anyone were to come around today talking about a durable piece where palestinians and israelis live as equals and freedom and safety, people would ask them, what are you smoking? but that's exactly the kind of far out thinking by a few people in norway that made osler happen. call me weirdly optimistic, but why can't something like that happen again?

it was such an out of the blue event at the time and it came when violence on the ground was raging and neither side one to think about peace or the other side's rights. sound familiar? i don't know if another office is achievable, but what i do know is it morally, we can't allow the status quo to continue. and that's the bottom line. ah. news. news. news. news in the 1st episode of science in the golden age, i'll be exploring the contributions made by scholars during the medieval slamming period in the field of professor jim alcholay brings the videos of

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subscribe. you choose dot com forward slash al jazeera english ah . hi, molly, inside and hall with the top stories on al jazeera, how masses, political leader in garza as warning as a religious war. if israel persists with its policies around alex and mosque occupied east jerusalem and elsewhere in the palestinian territory. yeah, yes, it was also a keys, the u. s. x u state onto the blinking who's just wrapped up in the lease mission of trying to stow palestinian divisions are a force it has this report from gaza here and why.