this weekend here in miami city that typically gets very busy during the memorial day weekend. there was another one on saturday night and of course is just the latest in a series of shootings that are really played this country from coast to coast. remember in california, just 3 days ago, 9 people shot and killed a railway because yard and there were a child's shot and hurt in times square. this is really, unfortunately, this nation returning back to its normal level of gun violence. because during the pandemic that dropped sharply as people were stuck inside, ah, this is all just, these are the top stories. there's a scramble of political deal making underway in israel. right wing politicians. tony bennett has just announced he's a step closer to being part of a coalition government one that would replace prime minister benjamin netanyahu. the countries longest serving leader as it was,

foreign ministers in cairo for talks for these egyptian counterpart, gabby, ash canarsie, has tweeted about the meeting saying that marks the 1st such formal visit in 13 years. it also said the 2 officials will discuss prospects of a prominent cease fire with hamas by staffing and leaders have begun that emergency meeting about the political crisis. and molly, the session was called after last week to see me going as the colonel behind that taiko, it was named the new interim president. and he's also attending the meeting. it was hot because more and we're going to hopes to get from the meeting. think he wants to get the trust of the west african heads of state that he's actually going to follow through on the promises that he had made when he took over power in august. and the reason why there was a lack of trust trust is because he had promised back in august that he would ensure that it's civilian. it would lead the transition this period of transition. and last week he fired the president of transition and the prime minister over government position. that affairs of political uncertainty in molly could make it

security situation worse and the size of a country 5 people have been killed and shooting a gun when attacked. a police checkpoint along the road between molly and ivory coast indonesia is released tankers from iran and panama seized on suspicion of illegal and transferring oil arounds. m. t horse and its crew have not been started out of indonesia waters. upon them. any and tankers seized at the same time was also released from friday. the captains of both vessels were sentenced to a year in prison, causing environmental damage. but they were released on probation. presidents have democratic republic of congo says the situation in the east is serious, but under control, days after the interruption of africa, the most active volcano, at least 400000 people have abandoned their homes. and these 2 people have been killed and 20 have been injured and shooting in the u. s. state of florida. police in miami say 3 people, shot indiscriminately into a crowd outside of billiards club where people were gathering the concept was the

headlines. the news continues. all 0 after inside story. goodbye news. news, news, news, news, whatsapp take indian governments, the court. the messaging app says new rules will force it so we can privacy protection. so it's free speech under threats. and how much is the debate driven by policy? this is inside story. ah

hello and welcome to the program. i'm having a jammed room. a court battle is pitting whatsapp against the world's largest democracy. india is the biggest market for the messaging service. nearly 400000000 users rely on it to communicate with friends and family. but like many online platforms, it has struggled to control the spread of misinformation. india recently passed new rules, forcing social media companies to identify the 1st person to send the message. what's ap argues this goes against privacy rights in the countries constitution. the company says it may have to stop encrypting messages, adding it's impossible to keep track of every message. some believe the digital media rules have a political motive. the issue with the being didn't government doesn't like being defined and government us. it doesn't want more than one would be once these that wants to send. so wanted and in a sense, india has a bit time, not envy. it likes to them to all the time exercises and it, it wants to be in

a position to control. so i want to join them in they'll want something similar. andy as governing b, j. p has often had a tense relationship with big tech last month that ordered twitter and facebook to take down posts, which were critical of the government's code. 1900 response. official say those posts were wrong. but critics argue it's the government trying to control the narrative. that criticism was raised again a few days ago when police visited twitters offices in new delhi. officers reportedly wanted to know why a b, j. p spokesman had his tweet listed as manipulated media. the government ban, tick tock and 200 mostly chinese made apps last year, citing security concerns that happen shortly after skirmishes across the 2 countries disputed border. ah. all right, let's bring in our guess in new delhi, it's a sharma pointed co editor of course india,

a digital news outlet in math for it in the netherlands, catalina, go on to assistant professor in private law and co manager of the muslim law and tech lab at mass with university and also in new delhi corona and monday, advocate to the supreme court of india and an international lawyer, a warm welcome to you all. it's a get, let me start with you today. i want to try to break some of this down for our audience. when we talk about traceability requirement and identification of 1st originator of information. what exactly do those terms mean? and what precisely is the indian government requiring from messaging platforms like watch app the hey, so of the guy and see a lot of things. but the most contentious is traceability. traceability basically means that it's a clause that would require social media platforms to locate the 1st order janitta, often information. so at any time, if that is,

for instance of what's up message that is found to be breaking any laws. the investigative authorities or the government can off whatsapp to trace who the for sender off of this message or me more a photograph was. now what's up, see is that this is unconstitutional and against people's fundamental right to privacy. in fact, the messaging app is calling is this a new form of ma surveillance? because up in order to trace even one message, what's up basically have to trace every message because data and they don't know which is the one message that the government or the investigator will want them to trace of this would basically be effective effectively. it will be abuse to the reader to the users of what's up. and also it has a lot of flaws. for instance, if you simply download an image on your phone and you share it with someone when this message is traced,

it will show as if you are the person who created this image or wrote this article, or let me know you're the person where this information originated from so that is the main clause of contention that are of course are the clones of including the appointment awful grievance officer who should be local and in the spectra, catalina, if whatsapp were to eventually have to comply. when we know they're fighting this in court right now, but if they were to add traceability and allow it, what kind of precedent would that set for digital rights? i mean, other countries would surely start demanding this as well, right? so that's the, these are very interesting points and indeed we are now at a crossroads. what we see is that, and i can really tell the perspective of the european policy on this matter. we see that there is a trend to focus on digital monitoring. i think it was mentioning, basically master valence in the next 10 years. i think that this is going to be

a very important policy point on every agenda around the world. what we have in europe, for instance, is the digital services act, where on the one hand, questions about how do you deal with platform liability and how do you make sure that content that is illegal, gets tackled in a more efficient way. these are also things that are right now, falling under the digital services act. however, the, the type of an interference that poses is definitely lower and comparison to the indian legislation that was just this cost. so on the one hand, i agree that it is a very, it's a very, really questionable development and also controversial development. but i do believe that there are also some alternative regulatory regimes that we can talk about. corrina. how unusual a step is it that what's app is taking india's government to court? how significant is that? and do we have any idea how this might play out at this stage was

taken then government court, the full. and i mean, that's all right. no government, it's small policy express. i think it's true, said that they are under tress anywhere. then they're on the group with her lease platforms off from national. and when we look at the brain, whether it's on feelings to crack down on his speech, whether it's failing to governance, when there's an incursion on the sci fi, and then i'm justified in c o n c c o 2 or my age by no local law and off particular

countries that are in accordance with international i wonder i just i think that these are where the johns national international law issue. i think we have to be very chair. go back. there are a huge number of problems. the new chevy, one as the requirements for what sex to look at to the end to end and production potentially well they're not to do is to create a completely different set morgan, which is the but the problem for the move much much because what the rules do, in fact effectively create a governmental site mechanism for or digital content, whether it's from the media, dc class. and the oversight mechanism is able

to process the contests and it's not the same legislation. it's not in a law that has to be following the rules. the rules are made to be assumed on the information technology act. but then commission tech. oh, jack doesn't actually allow them to give these rules that are so broad that there will be on. yeah. and they're also on the phone. so where do you have criminal liability? for, you know, suddenly potential camilla on digital you may have gone under the control of me in the us in this way and she's in my view and also you platform then no much we go from the the the

recon ventures and coaching by was already catalina i saw you nodding along to a lot of what the crew and i was saying there's, i want to see if you, if you wanted to jump in. but also i wanted to ask you, because, you know, korina was talking about, you know, tech companies having to comply with, with various international laws. how difficult is it for tech companies and social media and messaging platforms to strike that balance in complying with the laws of different governments, different countries around the world, but also trying to ensure a freedom of expression and privacy for users. i would say that it says quite a mess. so if you are a platform that upgrade globally indeed, as you pointed out, there will be all of these domestic rules at national level, at the federal level that platforms need to deal with. and as we were hearing earlier, so if what's app is going to have to, to, to really emphasize a specific business model in india, but then a completely different business model in europe. and then again,

a different business model and the united states that just, that's not also good for users because when we're speaking about what's up at least recently, some of the, let's say the most important features that it has been retained that are considered to be positive will be features dealing with the encryption that it uses. so here we see in this example that we're lacking international rules that are going to be clickable to services that are similar. and that applies similarly around the world . in comparison to the indian regulation that we're talking about right now, the digital services act propose is a very different approach. so there isn't a general monitoring obligation for social media platforms, for instance, to do when it comes to content that the host. but there is a because the digital services act basically takes on an earlier approach from the e commerce directive that we have in the european union. that also said we're going to give platform a regulatory subsidy. so we're not going to put this very high burden on platforms

to make sure that they will know and they, they have an idea about everything that is happening there. so in europe, this is going to be the continued regime. so we see already that there are these differences and we would definitely be better off having more international harmonization on this matter is what i want to talk for a moment about the fact that what's up isn't just popular among citizens in india. it's also popular among politicians and political parties. the 200-1900 general election was referred to by many as the watch app election in india. so want to ask you how much was watch app used as a vehicle to spread disinformation and manipulative political messages during that election cycle. also, how much were political parties and politicians able to utilize the popularity and the power of whatsapp to their advantage? so what's up is one of the tech black form that has been in

a number times. it has the most number of users on last month. watch. i pad close to 400000000 users. and in comparison, facebook has around $300000000.00 around $700000000.00 of $1700000000.00. i'm sorry . it is also a platform that, that is used across age groups from the elderly to the, to the youth. up what's up is used across the board. so of course, any messaging on what's up has a very wide spread and wide reach saw whether it is for elections or in fact, i would like to add even for businesses these days. a lot of small businesses are just misinformation, but that it just political or a political of nature. oh, there is a film be used in depth. what's up university? because there is so much information that is being consumed by indians while whatsapp. a lot of people believe every message they get on what's up saw during

the elections. yes, they were a lot of well i every time that elections, whether it is state level or whether it is on a blue, on the national level, what's up is used as a very effective tool. what's up groups or just mosse message into what's up. well if i remember correctly, i think it was around the last elections last national elections when what's up to take a lot of steps to ensure curtailing the spread or fall of fake news in india including gul measures like all of stopping the number of times you can forward the particular message which has, which is in your still date. ok, so yes, what's up has big reach and it is not just a common post and using it. it is a great tool in the hands of political parties, the government and even businesses. current, there's long been a problem with the spread of misinformation and, and fake news over messaging platforms like what's happened, india, we know this. where is the line between what can be considered regulation and what

is overreach and censorship and going after critics dissidents. and you know, rivals really the question with regard to space, new deal, we don't chime right because my thinking is your opinion, of course, sure that there are on the margin of history ration but can be little. now let us look at the new, sorry, rules as we have been applied to this into media. just now. what we are required by the they should have been doing this mashing the most to me with donald trump treats we labeling them as being on. we don't know that right now. this is something that was

done by twitter on the meat of the gcs, and very shortly after we saw the ring on the door. and what is, why do you need to be thinking that issue? so then let me know something i'll trust with regards to miss government's actions when it comes to free speech. now we have not to me and would mean a bit of a disaster come to read me. but then actually me go when it comes to this thing, you know, balance nationalists and limits free speech, whether it's key, whether it's in other countries, in fact and all of these platforms up together. and they said, look, we're open to function unless you get through the recording in rules and

regulations as well. yeah. since the jewish user base and then huge the government is willing to use the criminal law and you know, we don't have i mean all that a lot of people see is notch equally applies to their friends and their force. right? so we have a problem here. we have a nice job in it. so it's something that's a tricky issue with governmental or somebody is related to the legal, you know, get ready, you can not. and i think very credible. and we've actually been saying, you know, then on the i know the,

the stand on that meant to be applied to other not only like a member, the criminal law is working to me. so maybe the situation where he's very fine miss selma nation. and he's very, i need to log regularly, she would be useful to me finally, then eventually they're not, they're kind of like blunder, right? and the lovely decency was defined anywhere from my so be like you how much you should expect across the board last there in the life. let me also point that i'm sorry to interrupt you. let me get back to you. actually about the point you were making about the chilling effect and in just a couple of minutes i did want to ask you about that is ago. let me go to you right now. i mean, a lot of critics of prime minister modi are saying that this is really driven by

politics. what do you say? is there a political motive behind all this? well, it is, i, in my understanding is it is a mix. a few things are people who are saying that this politically motivated of the correct the reasons seem correct and accurate of the way the government has been using social media platforms over the last 7 years. just build the case for people who say that it is politically more to waited for instance of just earlier this your, when the government was facing flat for the mismanagement of the 2nd day of school with 19, we know that they pushed twitter to take off certain posts and facebook, so this new why the laws will be another weapon in their hand in that, that sense to get all of the clamp down on voices that they don't like that out against them. at the same time, i believe that the another reason for rules like knowledge was said that

a lot of these rules are of sort of, you know, slightly outlandish, i would say. and that i believe was also because the policy lacks and wants in many ways. and this has been a problem with a lot of technology related policies that they didn't government has introduced for the last many years, including things like e commerce, policies, etc. so i feel it's a combination of what, but definitely there is politics and more. no one can deny that catalina. let me ask you a technical question, because you know what's happened. other platforms have said that, you know, this essentially is an impossible task. so i want to ask you, how difficult would it actually be for what's app or a messaging platform like signal to comply with these regulations? i mean, what would it require for them to trace these chaps? do they actually have, you know, the kind of infrastructure to do this right now, and how would they have to change the architecture of these platforms to try to come into compliance?

so that's a very good point. and i think that when we're speaking about messaging platforms at which as we heard before, so in certain different groups, they might be used in a very different way. so for instance, what's being used as actually disseminating information, as opposed to simply having conversations, because as i said, they are messaging platform. this is going to be rather different than, for instance, social media platforms that have been also voluntarily taking on obligation. for instance, to remove content that can be very, very harmful such as child pornography. so i think for, for whatsapp and for signal given their nature, this is even going to be more difficult. because for instance, to my knowledge, i would be very curious to hear also from my fellow called panelists. if this is the case in indiana to my knowledge, one that does not have content moderators. i note from what i know from the functionalities and the importance of what's app. i believe you can report different types of accounts, but and i believe that you can also report content,

but it might be a very different infrastructure than what we see with social media companies. and that is, it is quite troubling that at the end of the day, a lot of the content, moderation decisions have been left to the devices of social media platforms. and i think the example of politicians having opinions and sharing information, whether we qualify that as misinformation disinformation or simply opinion on social media is a very good example because, you know, we're, we're not asking the questions that we're, we are looking very much at what twitter has done with political speech, we're really asking the question of whether it's for twitter to determine whether a politician should or should not express opinions on that platform. but at the same time, let's look around at the regulatory framework. do we have political speech covered, ma'am? is really a fixed for social media. do we have a law that says this is what a politician has in terms of protection or in terms of obligation own their with

respect to their again, engagement with social media. i know that in the united states there have been, there has been at least one case with taken. again, it's actually donald trump, when he used to be the president. and when he used to block individuals using his twitter account, that was then the official twitter account. so you see there, there is simply a regulatory gap because we need to have some rules of engagement with respect to water publications can and cannot do on social media current. and we only have about a minute 30 left. let me just ask you, you're making a point before about the chilling effect that's going on in india because of this. how much does this all have the potential to erode freedoms and also to weaken democracy and the spirit of democracy in india? i think it's more than the word of democracy. i think it's very specific. he what be able to say 3. now whether it's your conversation about, you know, with your, with your box or with anyone out from your accountant or with your

doctor or not, some maintenance is something that would inhibit what you couldn't even say to that. so in terms of the maxim coming into your more intimate messaging, me now it's already happening to the degree with my gums. you know, so let's see here, but it's already happening. thought in and of the mechanism. it's already happening on, on the internet. i can see a big problem. so as i spoke about the trans national nature, all the new stuff and why is the negative effect hill? we have in fact, right also we can move like the gc out and you're also have so

there are ripple effects of or the job. but i think that this is also an opportunity to strengthen dearer to international law as a global people. all right, we've run a times, we're gonna have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much. all of our guess it took a sharma put it catalina, go on to, and kurt and andy and thank you to for watching. you can see this and all of our previous programs again, anytime by visiting our website, algeria dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. our handle is at a j inside story. for me, me, how much room and whole team here for now. the news, news, news,

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