stage comfortable that the settings that are in life are the appropriate settings, but that so long as everybody does the right thing. turkey tourism industry is hoping for much needy booth center. rochelle listed flight restrictions with health in the tale region on the mediterranean coast of reopening following months of setbacks caused by the pandemic visitor numbers dropped nearly 70 percent last year, resulting and losses of more than 20000000000 dollars. the news. this is al jazeera and these are the headlines. if u. p. s military denies, it hits a busy markets and to grow and then their strike can dozens of civilians. but it does admit targeting tico rebel fighters in the area, us and un on the through investigation monitor though has more from the european capital at the south of the spokesman for the if you're from defense offices are

the among the targeted just home buttons. i'm not civilian, he said they did not tucked up market. it's all propaganda by it's a great defense. he said that i talked an event about, i've been attended by competence. he said the event was to muck the muffler car of how then which happened in 1988 during the redeem of men gets the highland muddy m target had to get a malicious or rebels and had killed hundreds of people, mainly civilian an indigenous group in canada says it found hundreds of unmarked grades at the sight of a former residential school. the school says it's the largest, the group says it's the largest discovery. oh, it's kind of small. the remains of 215 children were phones in a different location. a multi story apartment block in florida has partially collapse more than ac fall, find 2 units remaining

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ah, separatists leaders walk free from jail, spain's prime minister hopes the arden will heal the wounds from the region failed succession attempts 4 years ago. but could his decision backfire and cause more division? this is inside doors. ah, ah. hello and welcome to the program. i'm hammer, jim jones, 9 politicians and activists convicted for trying to break the catalonia region away

from spain are spending their 1st moments of freedom. they were jailed for up to 13 years for holding an illegal referendum in 2017. spain's prime minister gave them a pardon on tuesday. he hopes his gesture will foster a peaceful dialogue about catalonia as future. but the leaders say they'll keep fighting for the region secession. the pardon is deeply controversial. opposition, party se they'll challenge it in court. as sonya guy you go, reports a tentative olive branch loaded with consequences. the spanish prime minister has been pushing hard to revive talks with capital and separatists and hoping that a pardon for the movements 9 in prison leaders can open the way for dialogue. we are responding to mother to the spanish government has taken this decision because it's the best of catalonia, the best for spain, and correspondence to the spirit of hominy and co existence in the spanish constitution. it's not without opposition. sanchez finds himself

in the middle of a storm outside of california. it is deeply unpopular, more than 60 percent of the country against the move and parties from the center to the hard right have capitalized on that discontent. but the procession of movement, the pardon do not go far enough. the cattle and lita said only an amnesty would be acceptable as he could cause to continue the fight for independence. but it shows water. now it's time for an amnesty on the right to self determination. it is time to agree on the referendum. it's time for a solution to achieve more internal consensus. yeah, the illegal independence referendum in 2017 triggered the biggest political crisis of the country had seen in decades. the 9 succession of leaders was sentence in 2019 for their roles in the vote, including catalonia vice premier,

spain supreme court, which oversaw the trial has also rejected the pardons. as it says, those sentence have shown no remorse. while the ruling is non binding, it could be cited impossible, future legal challenges in the constitutional court, which could send the 9 back to prison. the difficulty for the process session is to argument is that while it is very vocal, it is still in the minority. in catalonia, big part of spain is still just about the preferred option that mr. sanctioned. his dilemma is that he is leading a minority government and can ill afford to squander the support in the parliament . he also needs the support of catalan nationalists parties barely does know that this peace offering won't be extended by the prime minister's opponents. it is an enormous gamble, yet those determined to move on say the pardon are the only way to repair the deep divisions that still linger between the 2 sides. so did i ever go out there?

ah. all right, let's bring our guests in barcelona. we are joined by mar aguilera. voc is professor of constitutional law at barcelona university in madrid. ruth ferrero lecturer in political science and senior researcher at complet competency, university of madrid and in brussels pit their clipper. and you policy analyst and editor of brussels report dot e u. a warm welcome to you all more. let me start with you today. will these pardons from your vantage point helps you of the wounds between capital lonia and the rest of spain, or could they backfire and lead to deeper divisions going forward? good afternoon. thank you very much for having me here. it may have been young. this helps any step of course helps because this people has been in this cut, the leader. they have been in jail and it's not only about them, it's about all the people that want to talk to them. and we even had the president

of the capital empower meaning jane. and this has been very shocking porter. the cut, the lance was tired. the in this has been reflected in the last elections where people kept wolfing, boating, poor independent, these parties. of course there are many other parties, there are many other opinions in catalonia, of course there are, but this is the 1st step, but here in catalonia, many people what they want because a part of them, it's individual. and now right now, 9 person will be relieved, whereas if there is an amnesty law, that means that the facts are clear or clarify. and then more than see how soon persons that are prosecute to import would be clarified. and then then what would be very useful, it's an amendment of the criminal code to clarify the traditional crime and also

some granted to have to do with the freedom of expression. and with these would linger with the rest of the european countries roof. let me ask you the same question from your vantage point in madrid. do these pardons help foster a moment where it could lead to a reconciliation of sorts between the central government and the capital nationalists? yes, they will think so. i think this is, you know, the starting point to carry on with dialogue, political dialogue among the parties. and i think it necessary to go ahead. it's a legal issue. so that's sort of that then this are the political negotiations on dialogue. i think the got to say at the end is funny society already $12.00 way out of the situation of a nation. and so i think they are what we all want to move on on this on the situation. so yes, i guess a power don't,

it's the 1st is that there will have to wait and see if we can proceed on that political negotiations. i'll find out political solution for this issue be if we could just step back for a moment and look at the beginnings of this, i mean the 2017 referendum. this created a huge political crisis. and while this crisis may have moved in no way, has it completely been resolved, has it exactly. i think the madrid government has not been properly engaging. it's indeed a 1st good step towards reconciliation between barcelona madrid. now, i mean, fundamentally, i think the independent tests in got saloon shillinger stands that at

least a large part of copy on society does not want independence. and i think madrid should accept incompetence society. there is a strong desire or legitimate desire for more self government. so it should be possible to find the middle grounds. the obvious answer and model to look at is switzerland. a country were, indeed the centralized entities have a lot of competence in particular, dec scope dances. and if you look at spain, there is there already the basque country and they have more tax powers at the moment. and so perhaps that could be one way of trying to find a children that got tonia and perhaps older region in spain received the tax powers . that's the boss country already house, mar, polls have shown that

a majority of spaniards were against granting these pardons. now we've seen separatists leaders who were pardoned actually walked out of jail. how was that news being greeted hearing got the only, you know, where they saw is that that's be there. just take, there is a large part of the society who and the police are referring the this. there is a large agreement on this. and of course, there are people who are not independent, these scores, and people who are, and people who are controversial. i need to see what people once or at least go back to politics and these 1st step seen all these politicians. politicians getting out of his chair has been a relief for us. but still there are more than 2000 persons that are still prosecuted. so that means that parents are not easy. the challenges are still here . we need a response from politics, not from the judiciary, and specifically,

not from the criminal court because many things that maybe should be fine or should have a response. the criminal respond should be the last one, for instance, to call it sedition. what's happening here in california? for me, this is and for many like europe, county and i'm just interacting all the un. many institutions have said that this was this proportionate and foreseen all these leaders getting out of jail has been very happy because for instance, the print out the problem in of catalonia, this lady, she said grandma and she's very popular. she's very well known. and for many a cut this has been very painful, of course, for many counselors to was very painful to see the touch referendum because of

course, the proper to put, i don't think for many this was painful to see that part of the couple in society wanted to be independent of what spain and they've won and they didn't trust the river ambulance because of that reconciliation and to talk. and also when the president of spring came to the detail, but on the open house of the person, i'd say we have spanish lot got on these the 1st time that we have seen this kind of seduction. and we will like to see more actually, ruth, our political parties in spain, who have been opposed to the granting of the pardons, no matter where they might fall on the political spectrum. are these parties beginning to capitalize with over the anger that's been expressed about the pardons? not at all. i mean, the ride going parties have been trying to lounge campaign essay was the same in

2006 against they got along and said you'd by be so far by the population has been the finish. they don't get what they were expected. some matter of fact, while they're minding now these, that the, that losing support from the ex or such as the a charts or the inter printers or, of course the, the ones who are you saw lisa for the position for the, the, the part of them. so i think it has been a good a strategy by the government to get to support those. no, just the political parties that were supporting their government with the approval of the budget in us here. but also getting some up there at one time i just mentioned live 54, which is essential to go farther on these reconciliation and i am political

dialogue process. so i think the opposition political forces are loosing truck. they're losing their argument. they have no legal arguments, they have no political argument because says, pardon has been used as since the beginning. i mean seems like centurylink, but also the, the beginning of the marker, seeing the same by either either a government right or left wing. so has no legal argument has no political man, and also they are not saying the truth when they say they are negotiating with independent independent the scotland because they need it will fight the governance of the country. because i guess that the budget has been approved already, so they don't need the government, they need the support of the so political party. so i think they have to think about it and half a reflection on, on that the, the position of,

or that i should say to radical position against the part of them. get there from your perch in brussels, how risky does all this look for prime minister sanchez? how much of an impact politically could these pardons have on him going forward while he's trying to find the middle ground? his between 2 sides ready, and that's why indeed he has not gone as far to declare amnesty but and also why he has waited in order to take this step. and then of course, is the right doing opposition and they are not very keen to, you know, to accept any concessions. but that said, at some point there's going to be a new elections in spain. and if sanchez wants to achieve something, he should not stop here by just you know, granting this, this, this freedom to, to the policymakers,

to these politicians. he should officially engage and try to find a settlement with cult lonia and, and, and get a troop legally before the next elections. because indeed, otherwise, some people that are more hard line on the console in issue may come to power and then it may become even harder to find the settlement. now that said, i don't have the impression that mr. sanchez is, is courageous enough to go there. but we will see more where do things stand exactly in catalonia, when it comes to the separatist movement right now, i mean, since 2017 has, has momentum for this movement. ebd has it slowed? well, it's difficult to say because in the last electron it didn't go down, but the thing is that it was in the middle of cory. so participation was lower. so

it was said that look from the independent, the target to say look, the more when what is going up? i'm up. whereas from a thing it was said, well, but know many people went to port, but this doesn't mean anything because we don't know what we're going about. the ones are staying at home. so if we look at the last electrons, independence, the small, when that's not the talk, but i think many people would like to see politics back. i think maybe really tired of all this judicial edition of, of the process. and so far we don't see any response from the spanish state. so in the previous government. so right now at least a period of time to government is giving it's trying to missteps. and of course it's criticized by golds cripes from the hard core of both times. like from the

wind up when the unity of expand that they will want to talk at home and the ones that want to go straight away towards independence. but most of the people, i think, you think the medium and, and step types these want or it would remain the, the criminal code if we would talk about the spanish judiciary. because if we talk about transitional justice, when you go from i think that's a shipping toward democracy. now there are 2 step to my directional time. there is that to be taken and come up, then we're not thinking to explain till we are a situation some brand has to do with this morelli transition we had in the spring . but maybe we need another transition to enforce or democracy. we need to talk about more about inclusive, be about as these 2 is more of a maybe would be a response or many other factors and tools that could increase and

ameliorated putting democracy. or if you know, critics of prime minister sanchez accused him of abandoning his previous positions on this issue. they say that before that he had stated publicly that he was against giving out pardons to the separatist leaders. and that essentially he's only doing this now because he needs support and his party needs support from capital a nationalist parties in order to pass laws in parliament. what do you say is that a valid criticism? i mean, when the prime minister have done this, if he did not need that support, i guess i just mentioned that in my previous intervention that the suffering, their sentence is not really not true. i mean, the main law that has been passed on on day it's, it's legislator and it should be the budget has been passed already. so that's, that's not true. they government need say this of,

or they because they got that political party saying that i should say that i think the socialist party household with them being troll political dialogue. we have to remind here that the, the most conflicted conflicts, if governments and be doing the most the most conflict it in relation has been doing. they've got a long go remain 2002 in 2006, 7, especially a later on the wait the referendum when de popular party was on government in essence government. so when the rub, because go varying both sides. more radical, more radicalism appears, either in catalonia or in the rest of the country. so i think the, this is a good thing, said the, the spartans, they say,

i'm not quite agree with my previous colleague nor mar they wanting brussels. when he said that, since you know enough, a bravery to, to face it, i think we have 2 years ahead to, to carry on the political dialogue. and i think if de socially government fails a good be not because of the part of us but by their stuff like management, socio crises that we facing even though or how they manage the funds coming from europe. but not because of the fire them. and i think we are on the, on the right track to sort out the missed a political conflict, which has been a stagnated for all for so long. bye. now, thank if you are. so we know that the leaders who were pardoned, they're not gonna be able to hold political office for, for some time or, or run for office. but apparently, these pardons are also conditional on these leaders,

not committing serious crimes for a certain amount of time. when we're talking about crimes, what, what do you think that means and what could encompass a crime? what could land one of these leaders who's been, pardon back in a court room or back in jail going forward? well indeed, as you say, it all looks very shaky. and dependent on the goodwill offer of madrid, we'd have to see legally how permanent that is, how solid it is. the future government could not revoke this. also, it's clear that people like carlos pushed amongst who is currently in belgium. it's not clear at all that he can go back to spain because indeed there has not been a formal amnesty. i mean, part of the problem is also that the spanish government, or i should perhaps say the judiciary has been using definitions of,

of crime. and that's are not necessarily considered a crime in other european countries, which is an element that has complicated attempts by the spanish drew the sherry, to ask for extra edition, for example, from a from belgium. so belgian judges has of broke this extradition also. now, do you are being court of justice as over ruled the do you report that served as the legal basis to, to, to take the immunity from capital on any piece. so i think a lot of the legal basis that has be used to move author to initiators of this or friend them is quite questionable. you also see examples of public officials in catalonia, that are facing legal consequences even if they were merely doing their job as bureaucrats or rudy and has no political role whatsoever. so i

think a lot of it is very questionable so far, and this also, i should, should race on down on how solid di pardons will actually be in practice, mar, pitter, just then mentioned how it's sort of unclear where all this might leave. mr. put him on going forward, i want to ask you a little bit more about that. i mean, could, could what's happened with these pardons? and if there is a reconciliation or a dialogue going forward, could that at any way open the door for me to put your mom who is in self imposed exile to come back in some capacity or perhaps even be granted a pardon or clemency of some type as it has just been said, that the situation is that many crimes that are a crime in the same according to our criminal cold or at least not clear,

not like sedition. like criticizing the, the king of spain or, or an attack to, to religion. they are not in line with all the criminal quotes in europe, and this is what the european court of human rights have to take all these years. so that mean that you put them on president for general and you want to com. she can go around or you wrote that because he's the european and b, but so far from the tradition of ms. payne, katherine said that if you come to spain, he would be arrested. so 2 things should be change because if not, we have the situation that the ones that stay here, the poor man, it has to be seen as more honest the fact that they say that they went through the court. and the once would be in the street, whereas the printing on which a mom who is in a dial, if he comes back,

she will be arrested and also prosecuted. and after the prosecutor took, he would be released by perth. all these leaders where in preventive prison for many months, you mother iep, and they are from barcelona, they normally be cut off and they could not defend themselves in their own language . all right, well we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guests marketing of our case. ruth, ferrero and theater trip and thank you to for watching. you can see this and all of our previous programs again, anytime by visiting our website, algebra dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. our handle is apps a j inside story. for me, my name is jim jim and the whole team here. bye for now. the

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