already cannot mix the misinformation. the latest developments. what's going on here is very different. first off, the back thing comes in the form of a naval freight, special coverage of the colona virus pandemic on a jessina. ah, you won't, you will just bear with me. so robin in doha, reminder of our top news stories, a senior delegation from gun hassan is in council to resume talks with the taliban . it comes of violence escalates on the ground. the armed group has captured large parts and i've got a son. i want to do the delegation of afghanistan hit by the chairman of the reconciliation committee has arrived in the category capital. doha, and as meeting with the delegation of negotiations affiliated with the government

during his visit at the lab dollar will discuss important and crucial issues with taliban representatives. the solution to the conflict in afghanistan lies in negotiations, and peace can be reached through dialogue. if these talks lead to satisfactory results for both positive on the tele, on movement has repeatedly confirmed its readiness for dialogue and negotiations. and the problems can only be solved by dialogue. but the afghan government needs to also show the same commitment. they need to show the right and sincere determination when it comes to negotiations in order to end these problems. charlotte bellis reports now from the afghan capital where people are watching the talks anxiously as the taliban makes advances. this is the front page of the newspaper. this morning until it travels to talk with taliban before the delegation left. yesterday, they had a news conference with that same period across the network here this morning. everyone is watching it very closely. there's a lot of pressure here to see some type of diplomatic progress out of her,

and that's because the violence is just increasing since us president biden amounts and a pull that all us and nato troops would be gone by september. the 11th to telephone, really double down independent analysts at that time say that they controlled about 70 or 80 districts out of about 400. now 3 months later, they say that crippled to about 220 getting a lot of traction around the country and a lot of strategic positions as we speak. now this is offensive around the same says in the north of telecom, sorry, pulling the south around kansas city and also taking border crossing. so they taking these games they going back to the negotiating table and they going back with more leverage and hearing. cobble that has people watching nervously and after 40 years of conflict, people just really want a resolution in this recent. why can you when says 270000 people have already been displaced? it's really exacerbating

a dire situation for an already vulnerable population. emergency work is in belgium, in western germany, all searching for hundreds of people still missing after devastating floods. more than a $150.00 are concerned with that figure expected to rise less. griffith saw being hampered by roads that have collapsed and damaged communication lines. south africa, presidents as week of violence and looting as planned, was planned and coordinated. so around the pose it says forces have identified 12 ringleaders and he's deployed 25000 soldiers to help diffuse a situation. at least 212 people of been killed. syrian president bashar assad has been sworn in for a full term in office for an election opposition dismissed as a fall aside, has been in office since july 2000 down to taking over from his father. the annual hodge pilgrimage has started, but with limited numbers because of the current of iris pandemic, only 60000 vaccinated people living in saudi arabia and age between 16 and 65 can

take part more than 2 and a half 1000000 worshippers from around the world. i'm missing out for a 2nd here in a row and columbia police chief says an investigation suggest that the former haitian justice minister, joseph felix battier, may have been involved in the assassination of the haitian president 28 messenger. he's missed the colombians are accused of shooting of an animal ease at his home this month. now the colombian government says any small group knew of the true nature of the job and the rest were duped into thinking they were hired to support haitian security forces. the 1st case of the current of iris has been confirmed inside the athletes village in tokyo, just 6 days before the start of the olympic games. the official is in isolation. after being removed from the village. those were the headlines. i'll be back with more news and half my here on out there, but next it's the bottom line to stay with us. i'll cc ah

me. i am steve clements and i have some questions. why is it so easy to own an exotic path? like a lion? or a tiger in america. what's the hidden industry behind this trend? and what does the conservation movement stand for? let's get to the bottom line. ah, barely a day goes by in the united states without a headline about someone getting hurt when they're exotic animal turns on their mercy. let's loosen a neighborhood, but that's not flowing down the crease to own one. tune into tick tock and the feeds abound with videos of baby tigers. leopards, wolves, foxes, huge anaconda in pythons. in more for generations, we've seen cute baby tigers appear on america's leading talk shows, often called ambassador animals who are linked to those that are in zoos. all allegedly validated by a conservation industry. well think again,

today we're talking about a new film that aims to expose the abuse and trafficking that's behind the scenes of this trend. the documentary is called the conservation game, and it's directed by michael webber who's been tracking this issue for years and years. carnie. nasser is one of america leading big cat experts in animal protection attorneys. she became the 2nd full time animal law professor in the world. when metric michigan state university appointed her to direct the animal welfare clinic of the college of law. and carol baskin is a c, e o big cat rescue in tampa, florida where she started 30 years ago, and has brought so much attention to the plight of captive and abuse to big cat. it's a real pleasure to have you on here. and i should say at the outset to my audience, i've seen the film. it is powerful, it is made an impact on me. and so congratulations. but our audience has not yet seen the film michael webber. so can you share with us? can you give our, or an audience a picture of what you've done, what you've exposed, and why? sure. i think it probably starts with my work undercover at the exotic animal

auction. you know, so it's at these auctions where you will see tiger cubs, lion cubs. these are, again, watch and in america that's, that's correct in america exotic it will options where they will sell animals out. the general, public know, licensing required a lot of cash, you know, changing hands and where someone can go buy a tiger cub, take it home, put it in their basement or backyard. and, you know, we've seen actually, we, we see, and houston, what happened recently, you know, so that was, you know, that was something that i did several years ago. and that was expected. and that was shocking when i, when i did that. and, but what i didn't expect to see was when i was at one of these auctions is i look to my side and what i saw was a celebrity conservationist that i had watched for many years on a navy. who do you have to sit? you have to see that film to see that, but who is standing right there too. and actually this person, actually,

my kids grew up watching. ironically, my kids may have been watching this person at the same time that i was at this auction watching him on tv. and so this person was not there to shut down the ox was not there to protest was not there to expose what was going on as, as i was and these other public safety officers, they were there participating, buying and selling animals feeding into the exotic petrik and so it made me wonder, is this a one time event? is this an anomaly, or is this systemic? is this something that might be happening within the industry more broadly? and i will tell you that a little further investigation, which only requires looking at an ambassador cat, as you mentioned on tv watching, or celebrity conservationist. the tell us where this cats going to where it came from. did a very simple exercise which should have been unremarkable. just go to the place that they say that this endangered species will end up. what i found is that animals not there, these cats aren't there. i have to tell our audience. so i jumped to cardeana carol

because it was shocking to me. they were seeing little baby gus, you know, on, on, you know, with jack hannah, i'll name name shak hannah, and others on these morning shows david's cell moni, others were bringing their paths from animal planet. and you would see them and these were endangered animals and it was his whole architecture and scaffolding of how they talked about being special protected species. and there was in no, this loving and engaging environment where they were free to roam, and they were sanctuaries for them. i just was shocked when there was no registration for any of these animals. and you would go talk to these people and you've got to tell the story. cardeana, tim harrison who's just this obsessive, compulsive retired, former cop because it's such an important part of the story. but i guess my question to both of you is, as you saw, as we saw, as i saw on the show, these cats disappearing into the ether is, are there no laws against this?

i mean what, what is the, how can this be happening? there's no meaningful legal mechanism to figure out where these animals are coming and where they're going. which is outrageous is that you have a legal framework in the united states of america right now. where in some states, there are fewer regulations to own a tiger than there are to own a dog. so if i wanted to go adopt a dog or a cat, it's incredibly difficult, right carol. i mean, tell us how you are, are part of this story and what you've been commenting on for a long time with regards to the absence of that legal scaffolding. with regards to these exotic animals. at our peak, we had to turn away 312 big cats. and every other year that number was doubling until the captive wildlife safety act passed. and that made it illegal to kill. she had no more resources to deal with them, right. as and all of the legitimate sanctuaries, we were full to the brim with all of these cats because we were breeding hundreds of these lions and tigers every year to be used as these pay to play prompt,

and then discarding them into pet homes and worse and just disappearing. and so we had been working on a federal ban of this since the 9. and we got a partial band in 2003 that actually caused that number to drop. instead of doubling the $600.00, the next year it dropped like $160.00. so then we knew that the only way we were going to fix this was to change the laws. and that's where the big cap public safety came in. like, you know, i think when you start the film was young. boy they're probably in the sixty's. i said that's me. that's where i'm watching mutual omaha wild kingdom. then i'm watching the today show or the david letterman show, i'm probably not. david letterman was 8 years old, but you would see someone who looks like a wildlife conservationists with the jungle had come in with the, you know, baby links are the baby tiger, the baby leopard. and we would play with them these. this was abc, nbc, cbs major networks in the united states that have connected these entertainment 2nd

sections to their new shows. is there not a complicity and minimum a blind eye? but if not, that a a dereliction of responsibility of these news organs about what was happening with these cats and what became of them. i think at least the blind di, but i think may be all of us. you know, that's no different than possibly me even tim harrison that you see in the film. and he acknowledges that which is what happens is you know, these conservation of gain, our trust, they have a level of celebrity to them, of course. and i think if anyone else might come on tv or maybe show up at a mall or something like that, you might actually give it a 2nd look and say is what they're telling me true. i'm not sure. i trust this. you know, maybe it would war and some further investigation. but you know, when, when we've, when the celebrities have gained our trust, i think we just don't go and look. we believe what they tell us is true. and we kind of go no further than that. i don't think that's unreasonable and, you know,

with the shows that they are on, these are people, the host of the shows and the producers of the shows are animal lovers. you know, they're involved in a lot of the same advocacy work that a lot of us are. it's just that the wall has been pulled over all of our i's with this because of the trust that we put in to these celebrities. carnie and some of the celebrities in this are grant camer. if i have names, right? a, jared miller, david, sel, moni, jack, hannah, among many others that you profile that are part of the celebrity culture of showing big cats and sort of, you know, creating a pretend in, you know, non existent environment or bout sanctuaries in the care of these, of these cats have any of them responded to what you have on earth, have they responded to you formerly or even informally, and reaction to what you have, what you collectively have surfaced? well, i don't know that any of them have seen the movie yet. however,

grant camer has been in trouble in the state of new york for violating state law relating to the handling of animals on late night shows and at birthday parties and being a supplier for entertainment. while out of the other side of his mouth saying that he's involved in conservation. so we have seen that these individuals have been implicated in the same nasty industry. whether it's the auctions, the exotic pet trade, the animal d. c on late night shows the exotic animals used in circuses. it's all part of the same cesspool. and they really can't say anything about it because there's no justification for the things they do. they can't debate this with people like us that know what's going on. yeah, there's no, there's no justification. let me ask you also, cuz i know you've been running your park to help save big cats for 30 years. i've not been there, but of course we've seen tiger king. we see the, the issues and the value went through on this, but there are a lot of regulatory,

our regulatory authorities out there, us to part of agriculture. i assume that you know, fish and game administration there are, there are players out there that one would think we're part of the regulatory environment, which is has happened. where have they been, do you interact with them? i know that you've been very active politically trying to get this legislation passed. when you hear from these parts of the administration have, are they complicit, or are they trying to do the right thing? absolutely complicit to the point where when i bring it up to our inspectors, why are you not doing something about this at this facility that we have witnessed them? we've had all of these people submit complaint forms, and they'll say that the higher ups their tell them not to even file a citation because been the animal rights crazies will actually force them to do something about it. so instead, they'll make it a teachable moment. and not do anything. and so it's been, oh, frustrating that these people will have hundreds of citations before they're ever brought to court. and then usually they'll pay a $2500.00 up to

a $25000.00 fine. they just considered that the price of doing business you is i understand, i don't know the legal dimensions basically were involved and i know carney and you were with with joyce artic and his, his is tiger park and what happened in, as i understand it, you basically received a judgement in that my question is scale because when i talked to my producers about doing today's show and they said, yeah, but how big a deal is as i said, have you driven across america? have you gone through some of these states and backwards? there are billboards of these kinds of parks paintings is exotic animals, you know, in every corner of united states i've been, i just never had put it together. how big is this industry? how big is it? and do you have to go through a legal process within each, every one of them to get a change? we refer to it as wakeham, all because as soon as one of these people loses their life and somebody else just gets it in some other family member name and they continue to do the same bad things. if you think about the thing with joe exotic, i mean we filed that case in 2011 and we weren't able,

we still haven't finished the case. we weren't even able to take this issue until last year. so these things just take decades sometimes, and the animals die in the meanwhile, because there's nobody coming in to protect them from the government from the traffic. the lead a wildlife trafficking monitoring agency has written about how the d facts in the laws in the united states and the lack of enforcement by the us department of agriculture and 5 us fish and wildlife service service is creating a perfect storm. where there's an increasing likelihood that these tigers and other exotic cat born in roadside to is born with backyard readers and all of these exploiters are going to end up also supplementing the demand for tiger parts in other parts of the world. so this is not just, i mean there are global implications for our lack of doing what we need to do here in the united states. i'm so glad you brought that up in one of the other things that strikes me about the beginning of your powerful film. mike is the beginning,

starts with him, harrison and you apparently seeing these celebrity is at wildlife auctions and they're saying, wow, ok, this person and then the string and the wall connecting people who in our eyes we don't even know are connected. and as it builds up, it's like a police investigation drawing together, you know, who's operating in the mafia and which, which elements to the control is this like a mafia. and i'll ask you, because there's 11 seen in the film with grant camera who is pointing it, you folks from a football field where they're showing off their annual tiger cub that they brought in. i think it's oh, be $47.00. and he's looking at you menacingly and showing people, were you ever at risk? yeah, i think that's one of the tactics that we've all experienced to, which is there's an intimidation tactics. so this happened when i did my 1st film, the elephant in the living room, and i realized it the 1st day that the movie played just for 100,

the elephant and well live in the living room. that's right. it is the my 1st documentary with that really i think, exposed the issue of exotic pets in america. and the day that it world premiered only just to a small crowd of 100 people in santa barbara the next day i got my 1st death threat on, on the, on my phone. so in many more from there you see what, of course, of course, obviously what carol dealt with and, and, but the, the intimidation tactics. some things that are in the film were things that where we interviewed people who were trying to give us information about where we could find these missing ambassador cats. they wouldn't reveal their name, they would send anonymous emails. i would record them and record their knees and their feet and so forth. and it's like, but we're just looking for a tiger that we saw on tv. we're just looking for, you know, an animal you will use, you are trying to bass and we want to asking if you would take gus,

the tiny little cute tiger and say whereas gus to day. and then you had a list of more than 200 of these animals that appeared on morning chosen tv very cuddly with whatever celebrity handler they had with these sanctuaries behind them . and all you did was go to them and say, where is that cat now? yeah, i think that's the most revealing because at the end of the day as far as we go to try to discover it are. so if you have to go to the source, you have to go to the last person who was seen with that animal. and give them the chance, obviously to say, well look, i know that you think this is awesome bruise or whatever, but it's not. we've got it right over here and you can see and you have to leave that open to that possibility. and so it was only fair to do that, but what i wanted was to hear the truth. and so i think in the way that i journalist typically do as a documentarian, we did that and we did get the truth. and the truth is, this is, this is crazy. they weren't shocked by it. so when you go to someone to say, hey, your ambassador cats are missing that were on tv. nobody was shocked there. they

just go. yup. where are they not going to tell you? will anybody help us know, you know, go away and then you see some of the intimidation factors when we go deeper. so there is quite a contrast between what you see and the phone with the recordings, with that interaction, than what we see very polished on the tv shows with care care. what were your on tick tock. i look on tick tock and i'll tell you every, well i'm going to have produce my own videos and take talk one of these days because you're on tick tock. and you see what i do. you see the cute cuddly pictures of exotic species? sometimes you see people there that are saving animals, have been harmed or hurt and re releasing them as well, which are very fine, very moving. but off, more often than not, it's somebody continuing to engage in the same kind of practice. we're seeing visual images where everything is okay and the cat is a moment. we're not seeing visual images of how they're ending up. you've been in this business for a long time. i want you to describe to our audience. what are the horrors that these, that these animals are going through?

you know, when people see those images on tick tock and other social channels, what they're usually seeing is a juvenile animal who's under 5 years old. it might be $500.00 pounds, but it's still mentally a kid. and so they're still able to play around with it. as soon as that cat reaches sexual maturity, like with a case of roy horn, they're going to get attacked and that's going to be the end of it. and there won't be any more tick, tock channel for that person. but the way that these cats end up the places that i have gone into and rescued cats from the neighbors would have been absolutely appalled to know that these animals were literally starving right next door and desperate for their lives and being kept in flimsy cages. my daughter reached up to the door of one of these cages one time where we had gone into rescue. 13 tigers and the whole door just collapsed in her hand. and it was like, all that cat had to have done was hit that were enough force, it would have been loosened, neighborhood, and we just see this over and over and over again, just wretched conditions. and some of the conditions that you saw in the

conservation game, people will be just appalled that those cages contain the most magnificent animals on the planet. and many times these cat, when they're pulled away from their mothers, immediately at birth, these roadside views and backyard breeders, their decline ma'am, which is a partial amputation procedure with pliers and hammers. and this is a standard industry practice. and it just one of the many things that these facilities are doing to try to make these animals less of a liability when they, when they offer them for public contact and pay to play. so there's a section in tiger king where all of a sudden they were missing large cats and you saw even his own staff worried about that and saying, wow, maybe he went and shot them and disappeared them. and i kept a wondering, as i watched the film, are there killing fields out there are there, you know, are you know where, where do these, where do these? because, i mean, is that also part of the picture? i'll give you a good example of that and that is dark angel who was in the film tiger king. every

year he has a roadside su, type thing where people can come in. they can choose from a dozen different cubs to have their picture. maybe they can only use them from about 8 weeks to 12 weeks, so they have a one month shelf life. there's always plenty of cubs to choose from. and yet his census every year goes up to cats for cat. it's not going up by the dozens of cats that are being born every year. and yet those cats are not in the gap in sanctuaries. we're not seeing them end up in other facilities. so where are all those cats go in and u. s. department of agriculture, when they do their inspections, they're counting what they see, but they're not verifying identity. so they're not checking to see if the same 10 or 20 or 50, or 100 cats are still there. then the next inspection that they do. so there's this revolving door in roadside use and nobody, there's no, there's no legal requirement for anybody to be checking where the cats are coming

and where they're going. so they're just check, they're just counting numbers. they're not checking their identities, so transparent that we are filming this today audience in washington, d. c. you have visited here both to do my show. so thank you very much. but to talk to people in the policy world about what the response are to be. so mike, what are, what are you hoping to achieve, either either public policy or through public attention right now. and all of you that you think needs to be heard by citizens in this country l. so when you see the conservation game and when you've been in the subculture, as i have as a filmmaker for say, 1012 years, you know, it really pulls back the veil and the illusion that we're talking about, that we see whether it's from the cub padding versus what's really going on afterwards. the vanishing of these animals where the cub is valuable, whereas the full grown tiger line is not in that that you know, translates even to our television celebrity, conservationists. so what i had hoped with this investigation that we did together

and also with the film is, is, is the transparency that you talk about, which is, let's see what's really going on here and see what needs to be done. and i think the thing that needs to be done as the film also follows is the passage of the big cap public safety act, which would seek to protect these endangered species and keep them out of the hands of the backyard breeders roadside, sous. and what's most curious about that is the pushback that we got from high level celebrities that we see on tv, what we are trying to locate the animals. we find that there's pushback for that bill as well. so the people that you see on tv telling us to protect and help these endangered species behind the scenes or pushing back to stop the big cat, public safety act. so jimmy kimmel brings these pats on. hi jim. we all know jimmy campbell, i wish call jimmy kimmel up and say, where is he on the big cat, public safety i care just in our last minute or so. and carney, if you just just quick places,

i just love to hear how you got into this. i know you started out west virginia. i want our audience understand, you know, and kind of the, the authentic way you came into this world of trying to save these animals. when i was 17, i was rehab written, releasing native bob cats that have been hit by cars or, or, and, and i saw what magnificent animals they were and how much territory they need. and so when i saw these animals in captivity, it just broke my heart right in carney. and how did you get in this business? 32nd, i grew up in the pow wow. the stanford area and the age of 11. i went to interview the director of laboratory research at stanford university about animal experiments . and i was horrified, and i've been involved in animal protection ever since. and when i had the opportunity to leave a big law firm job, pursue animal law, i jump on it. the film is called the conservation game. be sure to watch it when it comes out. thank you all for being with us director michael webber. animal law, professor carney and nasser and the foundry big cat rescue in florida. carol baskin

. so what's the bottom line? as was so much in america, there are 2 totally opposite mentalities at play here. one believe that this is a land of do whatever you want freedom. that means no one can tell you what to do, whether it's about owning assault rifles getting a corona, virus vaccine, wearing a mask or regulating wild animals that you want to exploit for profit or social videos or your own ego. the other believes that liberty needs laws and regulations to protect the people. and in some cases, animals from cruelty and abuse through the reality show tiger king and the epic battle between jo exotic and carol baskin more americans that ever been exposed to the underbelly of an illicit trade and tigers and other big cat. the film the conservation game takes us public awareness a step further showing us that our entertainers, our media and our talk shows, had been promoting a huge lie about the welfare of exotic species in america. the least we can do is to give wild animals the same protections that we give dogs and cats in america.

and that's the bottom line ah, joined the debate. you do not have back scenes reaching those who are most of the needs and amplify your voice. it allows a diverse community and how an array of different story know topic it off the table . it's such a tough ethical debate where there is obvious discrimination and systematic discrimination of the play. people are thursdays for new voices. the stream where a global audience becomes a global community on al jazeera odyssey the world unpicked the fascinating story of a prisoner exchange, negotiated through intermediaries on behalf of us and israel, a story of brinkman ship and bartering,

a captive israeli soldier for palestinian prisoners as recalled by mediators and players from both sides of a prisoner exchange on out here. ah, ah. your channels, roman and reminder of our top news stories, a senior delegation from god. his son is in cat. all to resume talks with the taliban. it comes as violence escalates on the ground. the group has captured large parts of the country. i want to do the sort of the delegation of afghanistan hit by the chairman of the reconciliation committee has arrived in the capital capital. doha, and as meeting with the delegation of negotiations affiliated with the government.