tv [untitled] July 19, 2021 10:30am-11:01am +03
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because money can get doreen would at least like a grandchildren to have a fair chance the future i wish for them is to get the best education they can get. but i don't see that happens in this world. we're living in now. they're growing up in a country where half the population lives below the poverty line. bernard smith, and presume a township south africa. ah, this is al jazeera and these are the headlines. the majority of personnel aboard a south korean military ship has tested positive for the current of virus infections spiked from 6 to 247 in just a week. and comes our south korea fights at west outbreak. yet at home, by the bride has moved from sol. questions are being asked here is how career about
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given the vulnerability, why hadn't the crew been vaccinated now the military have come under a lot of scrutiny. and they had said that there were logistical problems in getting vaccines out to the ship. that may be true, but they certainly have much bigger that just tickle problems. now they have a stricken vessel and a sick crew. and the solution to it is by no means easy as they have sent from south korea to military cross to bring the entire crew back here to south korea. those same plains have taken out a replacement crew and reduced crew of a $150.00 sailors whose job it is now to bring this ill fated vessel back to south korea waters. all, meanwhile, thailand has expanded its locked down. as corona, virus infections there rise and reported a 4th consecutive day of record new cases with more than 11000 to infections. domestic flights have been suspended and even more cases are now under curfew. while that's happening,
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england is celebrating what it calls freedom day. as the government has listed almost all corona virus restriction, that's as it still reports. more than 50000 new cases, a day. scientists and health expense, se infections could now double in weeks one of the biggest local sponsors of the tokyo lympics. i said it weren't any commercials related to the games because of the lack of public support for the event. toyota, chief, executive, toyota. we'll also miss fridays opening ceremony post just more than half of the japanese public don't want these games going ahead. phones belonging to hundreds of journalists, activists, and politicians have been hacked by government using spyware, owned by israeli surveillance company, the and a so group. these really fun has called the investigations findings exaggerated and baseless. well, those are the headlines. i'll have more news for you here. on out 0 off the inside story from talk to al jazeera, we roam,
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did you want the un to take and who stopped you? we listen, see the whole infrastructure and being totally destroyed. we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter. on our sera, belgium takes back 6 women and their children suck in a syrian camp for ice will fight or some other european countries have been more reluctant to do the same. so, so the families have captured, foreign fighters be allowed to return home. this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program i'm. i'm a jim jones. it's been 2 years since ice was defeated in syria. thousands of fighters and their families were captured and held in refugee camps. they include
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women and children from europe, who followed their husbands to serial. governments had been debating whether to take them back on friday, belgium repatriated, 6 women, and their 10 children. the government decided in march to allow mothers and kids under 12 to return voluntarily. belgium's federal prosecutor says the women will be charged with terror fences and the children taken into care. other foreigners in the syrian camps are urging their governments to let them return home. please, i do so, but not least we want our children to learn. our children should be able to read, write, and count. we want them to have normal school and we want our children to develop. they have no development here. the only thing they do is that they throw stones and jump on cars just because they have nothing to do here. with the un has urged 57 nations to repatriate their citizens from camps fighting humanitarian concerns. more than 64000 people live in a hole and rose camps in northern syria,
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where conditions are dire. france has allowed 35 children to return since 2019, but the nation has largely resisted repatriation. in germany, $22.00 women and children arrived home by the end of last year, out of an estimated $1200.00 citizens. russian media say at least 150 children had been repatriated as february last year. the u. k has removed the citizenship of many people linked to iceland, syrian camps. one of the most controversial cases was that of school girl. show me mom, back home, who fled to syria in 2015. ah . all right, let's bring on, i guess, joining us on skype from cardiff, aimen jawad, l to me, me a research fellow at george washington university's program on extremism and joining us from beggars cost a bravo, spain. chris phillips, former head of the u. k. national counter terrorism security office, a warm welcome to you both. thanks so much for joining us on inside story today.
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aim and let me start with you today. you have been to at least one of these camps and syria. i believe it was in 2016. what did you see there? how dire were the conditions and from your perspective is the repatriation of mothers and children the right strategy. thank you by me. yeah, i just to clarify, i was in, it was during 2018 actually. so that's the more recent period i was in the camp in a nice area which is just north of 50 and a, it was a separate section of the camp dedicated to the foreign mostly foreign mothers. they were also iraqis, during that, by in georgia of suspected i s members to members who will be helping tension. they conditions were very dia and i didn't see how sustainable to keep
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holding these women and children in these can indefinitely. i mean, the country do me take them back collectively, not just they take the children back and leave the women die. because and because for instance, it is also in talking to the women myself. none of the goals would openly admit to being men having team members of the organization involved there. but this is something for their home countries to investigate when they take them back. because there were women involved organizationally in the state. and as for the children, well that they didn't choose be born in those circumstances and as nationals of those countries which they long have a right, some kind of, you know, country cruise. let me get your perspective on this. what do you think is repatriation when it comes to women and children the right thing to do and why? well, i think it's incredibly difficult situation. an old countries across the world seem
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to be having the same issue with whether they should read these people or not certainly the children of nothing wrong. and i can see no reason why they shouldn't be returned to the country where they are sickly. they have a passport in the right to live, but i think the women are a different thing altogether and they chose to be there. just been member of this is something that is so bad that and the things that they're talking about that they want for their children were exactly the things that they were there. organization was stopping for the, for the rest of the syrian people. so i think the children have a right to come back. i think the parents, the, the mothers and fathers, really, they committed the crimes in that country and that's where they should be punished . i'm and let me ask you something else. in december, germany in finland, repatriated women and children from these camps. last month, the netherland repatriated dutch woman and her 2 sons,
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and now belgium has repatriated 6 mothers and 10 children. does this signify to you that we will start seeing more european countries repatriated, their citizens going forward? i think the repatriation being it is and i will be back by duping the repaid raisins will eventually happen. but it looks to me as if it will be a long and protracted pros. they'll be a lot of kicking back again to try to stop doing so and issue a political pressure and so on. but i mean, i don't, i don't waste and you have, we just leave, leave them in. those can. i don't think you can just continue indefinitely. and you add to the subject of you legal prose that i think the bible, the big problem you have is that this is ne, syria, which is control by if i go control by the ministration,
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know by the central government in damascus. so where are they going to be? if you were going to find them in theory, if you're going to try mothers and fathers of the, of these children and they're going to fight him inferior. whereas the due recognition then for all those legal process surely would make more sense to do it back back in the home countries. chris same and there was just talking about some of the political pressures involved in the decision to try and repatriate some of these european women and children to their home countries. let me ask you when it comes to the repatriation process, how difficult is it overall? i'm talking about legally i'm talking about logistically, what are the challenges involved? well, i think the big logistical problem that you have actually to begin with is actually proven. the children are who they say they are and, and the women, they say that, but then you come down to the fact that this is, this is the view and it's been shown the view that they'll come back to their own
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country. they will go in front of a call and the call will probably find them guilty and they'll go away and they want to live in that country because they will be in prison. but the truth of the matter is that none of these women will, may suddenly fight much of a trial in their own country if they are convicted. and let's not, let's not forget the difficulties of convicted someone of an offense that happened when the other side of the world where a lot of the victims, the witnesses have been killed. how are you going to get to a trial in a western country? the put some into prison for a sustained period of time. you're, you're not. and the truth of the matter is they will go back to their own countries . they will be released into society, and society will pick up the problem in the bill with it. and i think we need to be realistic, you know, courts in the west are not designed to deal with this kind of this kind of offense . and you're chris, there say that chords in the west really are designed to try to have these kinds of
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trials. i want to ask you 1st, if some of the women who have returned to these countries are actually facing trial, i mean, are these trials actually being conducted currently? and secondly, do you believe that's the case? do you believe the trials in the court in these countries are able to actually prosecute these cases? my time on john specifics about trials involving women might have be involved in issues and follow the males to way involved in this problem. a male i was involved in the design, then was repatriated to its own country. but i don't think it's entirely unfeasible to be able to hold a trial. i mean, if you super tried to establish whether a particular woman was a member of the organization, be involved with the money they that's not the right. that's not necessarily the committee unfeasible. the crew is no break. dog will be buying,
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they did leave all compiled extensive bureaucratic men, bureaucratic records on members of the organization, family details. it's not the old day. all those data have been lost to retrieve ably on that 30 the case. you don't have to rely on witness testimony. your testimony, people who, who, who, who are disease so i would be skeptical of it being already unfeasible to try women on this, you know, drive people on this, you know, i to be members of the bank state. i'm in a quick follow up with regards to a point that you were making. i know that there is a you in investigative mechanism unit had that was essentially set up to try to help collect evidence when it came to crimes committed by i saw atrocities committed by isolate. do you happen to know if this investigative mechanism is
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assisting with any of the trials that are going on? i can say yes, i believe that some of the evidence gathered has actually been been used in court proceeding specifically in trying to establish by the national, remember of state and he'd been repatriated and his name actually did turn up in the database. all is binding records that i think could be found by, by iraqi forces. so this is why i say it's not necessarily the, it's not 9300, feasible to conduct these trials. i mean, for example, one criteria and you can establish whether someone was
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a member of the planning stage and whether that person had something, the goal is to have a number. and that's a very be a mom, a membership with 0 credit. because chris, i know you were talking about the security concerns when it comes to repay treating you know, some of these women. i want to ask you about the fact that, you know, rights groups have repeatedly warned that the situation in these camps. they risk developing into not just a human rights disaster, but many of these analysts and rights groups have said that these camps, if they are left the way they are, could potentially be breeding grounds for radicalization. so how much does that concern you and do you think that the threat from the potential radicalization in these camps is greater than the threat of the repatriation process when it comes to security, especially in the u. k. well, we have to remember that these are radicalized people that they've been radicalized . we're saying that members of this been very radicalized. so to say that it
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getting worse is a little bit ridiculous. the only thing i would agree on the obviously we have now another group of children that are likely to grow up into potential issues and radicalized individual sites. so the argument i think is more to take away the children from the parents, which is not a, not always the very good thing seen as a good thing to do, to remove them from the influence of the adults that are in those groups. but what i, what i would say is that the thought of bringing people back to the u. k to germany, to italy, etc, is going to solve the problem when we still have this fighting different name, sometimes across africa. so you know, the battle and the war again, this is not i very, they're still there. i'm looking to, to regroup so, so we have to be a little bit bowl. careful about, you know, the pressure that we put on our society to bring people back that are then going to
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radicalize people. ready in our own countries i'm, there's the u. k. or anywhere else, actually bringing people back and begun. so many of them is a good example of this where, you know, she is that she said that she's saying that the leader expect to be, even though she probably wasn't. that's all we're jane as a post the girl of someone that can get away with it. and come back to their own country and say, i think the u. k is, is very low, a lot of return. but i think the children are a different matter and to stop them becoming by the problems in the future. maybe they should be return to their own countries. chris, may i just follow up with you about one aspect of what you're talking about when you're talking about children, potentially being separated from their parents. do we yet know what the legal procedure is for that? how do governments go about trying to repatriate children if say the parents don't agree with that decision or don't want to be separated from them? do you happen to know what goes into that and what the challenges are?
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well, no, i don't. and i would suggest it probably won't happen unless the parents agree to it. but, but we've already heard that the idea in belgium is to bring the women back. they go to prison potentially. although i would that, that they will go to prison and the children taken into care and then you know, 2 years, worst case scenario, the parents are returned and they can go back to their parents. so i think we've got to be realistic. listen with these people that that have been fighting, and i hate the west. do we bring them back? because at the end of the day, they're not going to go to prison. if they go to prison, it will be for a very short period of time. they will be living in your local communities, potentially causing the problems that the children will be going to the school with your children. and i always think it's the wealthy people complicate about this,
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but actually they will go and live at some stage in the future. and the other people that would be rather close because of them returning should be, should be considered as well. i'm in the reporting on this subject when it comes to children being repatriated is that they will go when to care. do we know what that entails? do they get the kind of psycho social care psychological support that they need going forward? because these are children that have faced, you know, severe amounts of trauma? correct? yes, they had base plumber and many of them would. they lost their parents. so last one that parents or better until the last i said laying on more than one 5th, laying down and day. it's not clear how this is back home will be able to provide appropriate care or appropriate people that unfortunate not playing college is stora expert in that field. so i can come in too deeply, deb it,
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it will definitely pose. it will definitely pose a challenge, but i think longer you leave them in the camp, then the greater the challenges with pose in the future. i mean, suppose you just less than that was actual kind of future is that or then and in this region control by your appointed ministration, who's on status in looking in the future, it is not entirely clear with the way serious been divided and the been divided into these different zones of tobacco control, barriers or empowers exist name to be happy created a frozen state static conflicts. but then you have these buried empties of origin in your entire tree that don't have the national recognition. christine repatriation to belgium. that seems to be a result of a shift in policy by the belgian government. do you happen to know what brought
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about that shift? and also for the time being at least will repeat creations only happen on a case by case basis. well, that's a way of looking at the moment, but i think each country is coming under pressure to take back their own people. and that's understandable. i don't think because i want these people in their country and certainly be the guardian for them. want to be spending all their lives, having to go on a lot of women and children. so i can understand what is happening and i am, and i totally agree with is point to view that leaving children in those counts is not a great thing to do. but of course, you do have to bear in mind that if you bring the children back, then it seems you're going to have to bring the parents by as well. and if you bring the parents back, you know, let's not pretend that these people are going to go to prison. but 152030 is because they're not going to be in society and, and all the problems that causes them. and the view that the police can monitor them and keep them on the violence. you know, realistically,
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that's not going to happen though we are just putting our own people in a lot of danger. i mean, do you have response to, chris was just saying that it looked like it looked like you were reacting. i mean, my, my general view of it in the grand scheme of things is that if i commit a crime abroad and i get tried in the, in that country and the do president time war reason is that a start back country from that country going to call me back to my own, even though i might, if i committed that crime that day it was good. whatever. i might not pose the rate back to a community to the community in my own country. and so i apply that general kind of analogy to this situation. i do understand the issue of whether the mothers and body of these children might pose security bay dock issue of having
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being bad a lie. but again, i think burdening unrecognised administration doesn't itself have a lot of money and resources to deal with these kinds of challenges. i don't see that as bad as my grand you will be helping chris, as we've mentioned in our conversation on the show today, this is all very legally complicated. do you happen to know if there is a timeline that must be adhered to by which countries you know, would have to repatriate their citizens and have them go on trial by a certain amount of time? i mean, is there any kind of statute limitations that's coming up in any of these cases? well, i think because of the nature of the offense, it would be an extended period of time. of course, every country is different. i think the, the realistic view though is that these people won't really be prosecuted if they
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return to the country that they do. it will be very well known a very minor offense, but the lowest nature of the offense, which is membership devices. and there are many people in this country that have been in prison over the years. so it's, it's, the problem is much greater than that. i think the answer probably is for those countries that are asking the cur than others to, to imprison these people is to make sure that they speak about the funding. so to give the prison camps themselves the funding that's needed by the western or the the other company. this is not just the western problem. this is a well was problem in india, pakistan and others have got the same issue with, with, with attempted recreations. i'm and let me ask you this does the fact that more countries least seemingly for now we're starting to repatriate more of their
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citizens in europe? is that something that you could see is being used as a precedent by people that are currently in those camps who want to return home. i mean, could they potentially use as an example? the cases of these case by case repatriation at the european court of human rights for example, i could see it being i could see them. you could be some of them using that. the issue of precedent as a means to justify the being repatriated. but whether the president is given that you can ration to lead to a mass wave of re patients, i think is more than i be more. i see this more being individual case by case in a protracted process. chris, do you believe there should be more of a coordinated international response when it comes to this? because you have countries like the us that are urging other countries to
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repatriate their citizens. and then you have the political reality on the ground in parts of europe and also in the u. k. whereby these political leaders do not want to do so it's a very unpopular choice. do you think there will be more of a coordinated response going forward and should there be more of a coordinated response or loving? yes. is the truth of the matter and i, you know, well, so i don't really, i don't really want these people to come back. i think probably it's going to happen. and it will happen over a protected period of time. and as has been said, you know, blame the leaving the kids in there is not a great, great thing. they going to, going to be much more difficult to, to socialize when you do finally return to the countries that they find that they've got passports or so. so i think that will be a slow trickle of people returning. i think almost under the radar of the media and, and the public
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a but i think we shouldn't underestimate the difficulties that this will bring when they do return. and when they do have to go live next door to someone or that they have to send their children to the local schools. because, you know, it's the, the communities that have to deal with the problems. and the, you know, the mostly families across the u. k. really don't want these people to be to be living next door to them is quite simple and i think it's it's, it's a, it's going to be a popular decision. but i think it will be something district that over the next 2 or 3 years, probably at speeding up as, as time goes on. all right, well, we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave our conversation there. thanks so much. all of our guest aimen joe added to mimi and chris phillips. and thank you to for watching. you can see this and all of our previous programs. again, anytime by visiting our website, algebra dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. our
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handle is at a j inside story. for me, my job and the whole team here, bye for now. the across the world, young activists and organizes the rhonda moon, the motivated and politically engaged, the challenges they face couldn't be more daunting here. and we were the one who had life on what was going on. and the way that will mean media doesn't, there's nothing stuff that goes on. there's always in the dynamics formation. we have the agency to create the vibe of the generation. change on al jazeera, this stuff mom, flying the flag for her nation. we have been putting language in game,
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to say the reason this is extremely important. service that they provide to the city. we need to take america to try to bring people together trying to deal with people and left behind me. oh, battling the corona virus on a south korean war ship. hundreds of sailors test positive for 19 i mean, well pumped up to party england list karone of restrictions, but scientists wanted could soon have a 100000 cases a day. a .
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