determined to celebrate a deed for those who lost loved ones, it's more any minder of the pain. that brewer had algebra. ah papa here and i'll just see where these are the headlines. amazon found a just phase else has returned from its maintenance space voyage. the new shepherd's crew included base off his brother and the youngest and all the people who have now been ever been in space. the most profound piece of it for me was looking out at the earth and looking at the earth atmosphere. every astronaut, everybody who's been up in space, they say this that it changes them and they look at it and they're kind of amazed and off struck by the earth and its beauty. but also by its fragility. and i can vouch for that. when i look up, you know, who were still in this room were driving our cars were moving around the planet in

our normal was the atmosphere so gigantic. were these tiny little things in the planet, the atmosphere so big. but when you get up above it, what you see is it's actually incredibly thin. it's this tiny little fragile thing . and as we move about the planet, we're damaging it got a headline. sandy happens 3 rocket attacks in the afghan capital cobble. how mean they could be heard is asking president, shut down. he was leading 8 prayers that the presidential palace one hit near campbell's most popular mosque. another was behind its biggest shopping mall. the 3rd hit near the ministry of foreign affairs, but no reports of any injuries. german chancellor anglo merkel is promising emergency aid for areas affected by the worst floods and decades. she had made her 2nd visit to the region. the clean up operation continues, the waters have receded. some towns are still cut off by damaged roads and bridges . almost 200 people are confirmed dead in germany,

belgium and the netherlands search team expect to find more victims. haiti is to get a new prime minister 2 weeks out of the fascination of president jovan noisy. aria henri is scheduled to be sworn in on tuesday, taking over the role temporarily held by the acting prime minister closures f and french president menu micron is reported to have been targeted by the pegasus hacking spyware. the mon newspaper says his phone was hacked by moroccan intelligence. this follows an investigation into the widespread use of spying technology made by the israeli company. and so we are back with your news, our little over 25 minutes time from now. next, it's the latest edition of inside story news. news, news. news

on the us and a number of western allies, lane china from the ledge, cyber spying campaign. washington says it's a threat to national security. staging says the accusation is groundless. so what the fall out from this route is inside story. ah, ah, welcome to the program on the hill roman. this was a unified condemnation of china on cyber attacks. the united states, the european union, nato, and other world powers. also, beijing was responsible for an attack on microsoft serve as early this year, but stopped short of announcing punishment measures for alleged cyber activities.

around a quarter of a 1000000 computers, a said to have been compromised in march effecting at least 30000 organizations worldwide. nations including canada, new zealand, australia, and japan's had chinese state linked hacking groups were behind the exploitation and they use beijing of a broad range of militia cyber activities, including ransomware and cyber espionage. the chinese ministry of state security was singled out. the white house has not ruled out consequences of aging, but president joe biden said china, his behavior is different from that of russia, which has faced us sanctions on a number of issues. the chinese government, not unlike the russian government, is not doing this themselves, but or protecting those who are doing it may be even accommodating and being able to do it. that may be the difference. the number of countries involved of else to the largest condemnation of china is 5 activities. it's also the 1st time that nato

has denounced alleged chinese cyber attacks. but 30 nation alliance wants all states including china, to uphold international obligations and act responsibly in cyberspace. while the e, you condemned what it described as malicious cyber activities conducted from china and said it was resulted in security risks and major economic loss. the government institutions and private companies. and the united kingdom's foreign secretary said the chinese government must end what he called systematic cyber sabotaged the could expect to be held to account if it does not. china has rejected the accusations, calling them politically motivated. here's what the foreign ministry spokesman had to say. may well, josie money or the us ganged up with its allies and launched an unwarranted accusation against china on cyber security. this is made out of thin air and confused the right and wrong. it is purely smear and suppression out of political

motives. china will never accept this. china will always stand firmly against and combat any form of cyber attacks. still less we will encourage support or condone any cyber attack. american security agencies have published more than 50 tactics. they say we're used by chinese hackers to target networks. and the u. s. is indicted for chinese nationals linked to the ministry of states. security with a large scale campaign to computers between 20112018. we'll get to august surely the 1st katrina year reports now from beijing. this collective condemnation of chinese cyber attack by at least 30 countries, including the u. s. has mean deeply embarrassing for aging. china has responded by denying that it's supported or encouraged any cyber attacks. and it's called these accusations groundless and politically motivated. now bay ging is trying to

undermine the credibility of the u. s. allegations by saying it has not provided enough evidence that there are simply too many of the actors around the world. it's very difficult to pinpoint their exact location, let alone tie these to a single government. waging is also trying to turn the tables on washington saying that more cyber attacks around the world occur from inside the united states. it accuses washington of indiscriminately eavesdropping on the world, not only on competitors, but its own friends and allies. it also says that the c i a has for 11 years be launching cyber attacks against chinese institutions, including technology ation and energy companies. now, while broadly denying these claims by the u. s. and the other countries launching these allegations, china has failed to detail. acknowledge any of these allegations of the attacks on microsoft email exchange servers, which had affected at least 30000 companies, as well as the indictment of for chinese national by the us department of justice.

katrina, you in beijing, the inside story. the. well, let's bring in august now for this edition of inside story. joining me now via skype from washington. d. c is brett brewed president of the global situation room and a full of global director engagement at the white house under president obama from light and in the netherlands. james, shy as an assistant professor at the institute of security and global affairs at lightning university and invasion on a tank and china, political analysts to also advises the chinese provincial government will welcome to all of my guess mr. brewing i just thought with you 1st. no smoke without fire, despite seems to be getting fund politically from all sides. and yet at the moment, i have to say that the binding ministration has taken a rather restrained reproach. approach to china and chinese

hacks and attacks. quite frankly, on our infrastructure, use a different approach then taking with russia and i think raises a number of questions about the motivations. on the one hand, clearly they're trying to assemble that coalition of countries that are going to hold the line. i'm china, but i don't think it actually has the desired effect and in some ways it allows staging to claim that they are being unfairly persecuted without actually that penalty that it is so critically important. if we are going to dissuade them from engaging in teacher and it's hanging over invasion, let's say get your reaction to what mr. bruce just said. but also the feeling at the moment from beijing because obviously they're very angry at the moment. yes, i mean the, just remember that what, what is this all based on this is based on a u. k. in fact,

i mean investigation by the things that says it's highly likely, quote unquote that an affiliated entity to the chinese government instituted these hacks problems. you know, that's not exactly the kind of proof that a country or coalition of countries who are saying that the rule of law is something they believe it. this is the whole basis of it. so you have, these people come together based on this rather dubious claim and, you know, how do you just prove that from beijing's point of view. also, you know, visioning things, it's kind of rich, they're being falsely accused in their mind. and at the same time, you know, you have the snowden revelations showings, and that the u. s. was doing far more than anything that the chinese are quote accused are doing. so there's an air of hypocrisy, not only coming from washington, but also those who are joining in and that's an element we'll discuss as well as, as we pick this program that let me go over to the netherlands now,

which i am charles, are standing by and he would, the e u, the u. k, australia joining the chorus. if there wasn't enough, you want to credible evidence and a shared approach to the condemnation while as they tangled just said, it's a theory without producing any evidence. i mean, when you, when you see this at the moment, yeah, i think they ought to be the right to emphasize that you did not say it was certain . it is highly likely standard speak around attribution society because you can never be certain. i would not describe it as a dubious lane, the fact that countries have come out of the u. k. and the us pilot, i was the youth and they show how all come out. and i suggested that if rich and parents evidence behind it received some of the public domain from private security companies, but not all automated. that is very difficult to prove back to an extent in international. and i'll be coming back to how we actually pick that and find the

evidence for it. and the member mr. tangle, talk about in beijing, china. his response, as you say, has been robust, that quite angry about these accusations that have been made for facilitating the potential hack. but they are leaving the question at the chinese government may have accommodated groups who tacitly are working from chinese soil, who may be hacking, in a similar vein to the way that the, the us is treating russia as well and saying that various hacks are coming from russia, what makes this narrative difference as far as beijing is concerned? well, beijing is not acknowledged that there's any groups. they're just pointing out that if there are private interests, just like there are private chinese citizens who are for their own enrichment, stealing intellectual property. i don't think, but american steals something from germany or from russia. it is attributed to the nation, but for some reason, the chinese feel that every time you know anybody,

chinese shows up there automatically a spy. you'll note that they've just refused 500 students who are postgraduate students in stem areas because they're all spies. you've heard this repeatedly by republicans and democrats on both sides. so this idea that somehow china is guilt before you provide any proof. i, i beg to differ with my colleague from australia. i'm a lawyer, i was a prosecutor. i would've been laughed out of court by went in there and said, you know, judge, it's highly probable that there may have been an affiliation with a government. i therefore think we should, you know, condemn these people. i mean, if you stand by this rule of law, produce the evidence, don't stand there and throw nameless accusation on a kind of drunk. remember, this is part and parcel of almost j li criticisms of china for this that, are there anything? how is it possible that china is the center of all evil in the world?

or if not china, russia, and then they happened to be what geopolitical competitors and mr. talking just very briefly then, can i ask what policies laura, in place in china, just to stop hacking from a local position, do they have laws in place that stop these sorts of groups? oh, absolutely, absolutely. it is against the law to do that. this is not some sort of lawless society or something like that on from it. they have very good laws. the question is enforcement and making sure that they, if they know who these people are, they go after. remember, it's one of the few nations that actually go down something about corruption as opposed to those who cast stones. okay, mr. ben, back in washington, dc, you think the with a combined, you might say brain power of silicon valley, big tech to the say, the u. s would have found a way with its allies to stop hacking all side. the espionage in some shape awful over the yes. well, certainly, and efforts have been made, but this is one of those challenges that sort of continues to evolve and to

morphine to different ways. so you saw one problem and then another once emerges and i would take issue with my friend in beijing. he may suggest that, you know, presenting evidence in a quarter why don't know what a chinese quarter an american one. but the broader point is that not that nothing happens in china without express permission of the chinese government. so this notion of possible deniability. oh, there were these very sophisticated hackers that were operating from chinese territory unbeknownst to or, or. ready without the consent of the chinese government simply does not ask much, i'm sorry. okay, mr. shy that sir. bring you in here from light and to try and clarify how do you start to investigate tracking, where do you start technically in the process? sure. so that's

a really important point in that many the investigation start in the private sector . in the case of the michael, the exchange he's been detected by security researchers who are not thank affiliated and then they want to take it by private cyber security companies working for organizations with clients. they detected these kinds of intrusions and then they escalated that other than the community know, and eventually they also left a note as well. this went back to microsoft in this case, and then i'll try to issue some stuff from some point of detection, but a security researcher finding a hole in the system or by someone noticing unusual activity on corporate that was thinking, this is wrong. this is unusual for me to investigate behind it. i was going to school to technically trace all the way through to the person sitting behind the keyboard, but it has been done. and this is worth remembering that in previous cases, you are indicted specific individuals associated with chinese. they with the

chinese military or intrusions of the time. they have provided evidence the why to extend the evidence out there and the domain from these private companies, from the us government as well. so even though the exchange there is not, is highly likely that and all that extra development have been done. you know, the time that we, we probably expect similar and i'm come out in the future just very long to make sorry, please let me finish. please finish to me in terms of what happened after that happened to scope because it is all about the recklessness of the half and it impact initially, it just would like espionage, maybe on a large scale, malicious. i was trying to collect data, trying to read emails from these microsoft exchange service. once they knew that they'd be caught, once you find out they tried to multiply it as much as they could try to compromise as many organizations. and in that way they left the door open,

they left the window open to lots of other side. criminals run to act as you name it. so that was a record of incident, not the only one which could be considered, actually not allstate to it, but the record part later on when they tried to spread it all over the world. okay, so we can, we can go back and forth on, on the blame game, but let's move forward then trying to come to you in beijing. the recent g 7 meeting that happened in the united kingdom declared as one of its statements that china posed a huge global threat. trying to argue that it's big enough to be part of the global order. and it doesn't need to be part of the g 7, but would like to be part of the g 7 to be able to explain itself to be able to take be taken to task if needs be. because at the moment it seems to be on the outside. and as you say that it's ongoing scenario where china, china seems to be brow beaten at every, at every opportunity in turn. well, let's put it this way. i think china wants to be part of the un, which it is. i think it is not too fond of these kind of cliques that have grown up

. remember, the g 7 used to describe itself is most powerful and, and economically advance countries on earth. this time around, if you look through all the verbiage, you'll notice that they dropped economically advance because all of them know had basically had negative growth. during this covered period, china had positive growth. for the last 40 years, china has succeeded, and the developed countries around the world have moved sideways. this is an extra central threat to them, and they don't want to, things have changed. so that's why there is this ever louder drumbeat that somehow china has cheated simply because it has succeeded. it's a sad later affairs, but it won't end to jill countries realize that there are many past prosperity, not just one. okay, let me take it, take you over to, to mr. brewing in washington dc because the recent debate and the recent argument to the last 18 months has been about was way that the chinese technologic

technology fund that wanted to invest. it's a know how in the you case 5 g project for telecommunications that isn't going to happen. while always chief executive was arrested incarcerated in canada. that cases are going a real big a real blow for china to advance its technology across not just western europe, but also north america. well, if i could contrast yesterday's statement by united states and its allies with the approach that the trumpet administration to china, trump really tries to bulldoze to bully a lot of countries, including the united kingdom into turning down why weighs 5 g capabilities? i think divided administration is making more progress and that this is probably more sustainable in trying to work alongside allies. they're not willing to go

quite as far as we would like them to. and that is a worry because what we saw yesterday was the world standing together and declaring with one voice that this is unacceptable. i think it builds on the statement. it came out of 7. and you're going to see more of this. you're going to see efforts by, you know, those countries that are aligned with democratic values saying to china, this behavior, this timed out reckless, risky behavior is not going to be tolerated, the question that lose large. so is what are we going to do about it? and we'll, united states will european and other allies be willing to put some penalties alongside those strong words. will penalties be enough for beijing in a tang? and one wonders whether or how china would retaliate. s the

e o u s. start walking down the road of sanctions. well, it's not going to change china and you know, this kind of pious tone that somehow the whole world is sad. this one, it is in fact just a bunch of colonial countries who used to are responsible for many of the atrocities that growth green. china hasn't started. any wars ever broken? any countries are not leaving afghanistan behind they, they didn't do the things that were put forward by snowden, in terms of actually hack into the cloud and making sure they had access not only to china, but everybody else's information in the world. i mean, this is really an age of post hypocrisy. when i'm on a show where people are talking about how evil and terrible china is when, in fact, they're just accusing china of things that they have done themselves. yet they

don't have any proof against china. it's fine for my colleague in australia to say that g was, you know, there were, it's this and that, but he hasn't, didn't say it one at any point that it was definitely tied back to china. yet he is quite happy to have that. i wonder how he would feel if the situation was reversed and australia was being handled well. august isn't in australia, but washington, d. c, in the netherlands, but i know, you know, you getting the sense, but these accusations all coming from you might say the west. well, they all coming from europe, the all coming from north america and quite surprisingly with united world. how's that possible that the g 7 speaks for the entire world where they won't even give a cobra vaccines. brett bruin, the united world on you know, i think the point being is that you're seeing a much stronger alliance across pacific cross the atlantic, among some of the most significant global powers. and that is

unprecedented. and we can quibble about what use a global voice, what is regional reflection of countries. i also would say my friends in beijing that have been not just, you know, activations, but a whole series of accusations and with a whole lot of proofs. and let's not forget that there are millions into james who might be to different rosie pace of china. and it's a record on human rights and respects for the rule of law. so i think what is important here in the statements bring the conversation back to the core question is what rules as a global community or countries story perspective, especially when it touches on cyberspace. and this is somewhat the wild west and we're starting to see countries and co, alicia's countries come together to try to set some standard. you saw this in the

meeting that i didn't had with president, and i think there will be more. okay, but, but let me just bring in then james, shy as because if this is the wild west in terms of cybersecurity, cyber development, what needs to be done? who needs to be policing it? and can it be policed through an internet that is so wide and varied? so the starting point is to say, i think the water wet analogy is maybe i read like describing actions in cyberspace as a blog work because they are connected to other political, economic and other options that are international legal rules that do apply. decide if they, there are national norms that apply to cyberspace as well. these are being discussed extensively and they be agreed at every us for that being groups of governmental. they've been larger working groups with all relevant states who agreed that norms

are responsible, stay behavior, insights. they should be adopted more widely eating food, things like not engaging in reckless cyber attack. so saying that it was really undervalued the extent to which we have the norm out. that the question then is how do you try and and improve compliance would be norms. and you say how sanctions apartments women are. now you can have known cyber responses, such as sanctions, such as diplomatic statements, as we've seen before, we have responded in cyberspace. and this is where it gets a little bit more tricky when they choose response side operating with their own cycle questions. in response to our friend in beijing they will, is we're trying to, this could be not true in the cyber security code. are many, several questions about it by the us and allied, much of they pulled out china and russia. so the introduction community, the experts community is much more objective here and they do have

a lot of evidence. finally, i'd like to say on the point of responses from things we've seen from trying to reach a responsive in europe to record the violations around human rights around the way that they respond very strongly to auditions and to accommodate your top. and similarly here, i think that might be the right moment to actually and our conversation for sure we have just run out of time. i'm sure it will be a subject that we come back to in the not too distant future. it's always good to get your inside like to thank but bring in washington dc. james, shy as in leyden. and i'm a tangle in beijing gentlemen, thanks for joining me on this edition of inside story. and thank you for watching and see the program again. anytime by visiting our website down there, dot com for further discussion, go to facebook page on facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle that is a inside story. for me, the whole rahman, i mean, i story thing,

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