to implement with drug boss seizing more than 3400 kilograms of cocaine near the capital lesson, feel they re did the white house where the drugs were about to be shipped out. value of the lira has drops 90 percent. its inside story. now, latin america is a option of others argue it would hamper innovation. so is that a middle ground? this is inside store. the others argue it would hamper innovation. so is the middle ground. this is inside store. ah, ah, ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm bernard smith, inoculations of a number one weapon against the coven, 19 virus,

but not everyone has equal access. and for 2nd time, the sheer members of the world trade organization have failed to find a compromise on medical school. and from what i can france pull torments, professor of intellectual property law at the university of nottingham. a war welcome to you all 1st broke to you. should there be a waiver on the vaccine payton's? well, absolutely. did it be a waiver. we've waited for biological school and from what i can a france pool turbans professor of intellectual property law at the university of nottingham. a war, welcome to you all 1st book to you. should there be a waiver on the vaccine payton's? well absolutely, that needs to be a waiver. we've waited for bolen teary efforts to to no avail. we have grossly inadequate supply need just the high prices and really what is accurately called

i think it's a simple as that. i think there's many other factors that play, but on the other hand, i agree with my colleagues that if we have this tool in the trucks agreement, if this is not the occasion which we use it, then we should probably never use the scrap it. so maybe there should be a waiver, but there should be much more than a way of and, and wonder why the world is keeps kicking, the intellectual property bogged down the field. and maybe it's actually taking it off the field. we needed solutions last year. we didn't get them then we need solutions now. and instead of addressing the issue now the w t o and, and the rich countries are basically going on vacation. tens of thousands of people die before the next formal meeting over trips council. up in a simply outrageous that the european union led by germany is continuing to oppose the waiver. and it's frankly also re just the president by sitting on the fence and

watching the fight go on without constructively engaging with the very sensible, pragmatic proposal that south africa and india have put for that said, i certainly agree that voluntary effort should also be taken. but they have to go beyond the contract manufacturing agreements and, and fill and finish agreements that we've seen from industry thus far. they're really trying to work mainly within the cartel and with their favored larger scale contract manufacturers. and that's helped to produce the insufficient supply that we're currently experiencing as being you've got to sign a fall. going to start production in morocco box a much quick away, isn't it? than relying on waiting for waivers on the patients. why exactly? i think him the role core and other countries, egypt for example. so okay, i think the looking at doing the film and finish because the easy way and the quickest way to get to produce a vaccine. but i think you then stand that will be lots of communication with that

because there is companies and profits behind this. but i agree with broke. what you said. and the more analogy it's great happening to, to, to say that i think we have to be realistic, these countries, and on top of them, germany, they are just by, in time that the reality of things i think the little and they have to go. and so to say, it's bluntly, they are just letting people buying africa novel places, hoping that they will get enough machination. and there are countries, and after that they would ship them to these countries. but i think, and i think, and i have to be really, frankly, to set this kind of attitude, then this kind of approaches the from the richest country that might be, may be you will be bitten by about by your approach. because if you live africa 1300000000 of the population wise and live them without, the vaccination may be a super lying to become in. and if it is cape and any immunity it will come back

home to and bite you and maybe we'll be playing, catch 22 and think why i think it, you know, residual person for a more issue. we say let's with evan if and just this time. second, think every a reasonable person will think that we can manage the funding locally, but i think to come out of it, we have to think globally, paul, just help us understand when we're talking about waving payton's, what is it that the companies are expected to give up, but he's not just the ingredients of the, of the vaccine we're talking about. is it why they so nervous about giving up what they've learned? well, i think what they are nervous about giving up is the lifeline. the green one should not forget about the kinds of things for the time being, but shouldn't underestimate the investment that is made in the developing medicine in general and patterns all there to provide a return on investment. there's very little normally cobra 19 was an exception.

there's very little investment by government and some of the subsidies and doing the research. so the normal. ringback expectation of these companies is that true the patterns? i'm not saying there are no abuses far from it, but they don't get the return on their investment. so if they are not all to waive that happened right. and as it were to give away their return on investment, that is a big step for them. it's also important to note these companies. it's not just happens if i can think of the way you can make the vaccine. i mean, you need to know how you need also things in the path. so there's also a need to skim migrations. all these things need to be provided. and the last thing these companies want in the fall, how this will be waived, things will go horribly wrong. there will be contaminated vaccines. okay. there was this incident, didn't apply in the united states already. that was on the license,

i mean, then their name and their reputation will go down the line. so i think they are very weary, but they count train. they don't have the train and skilled technicians, they don't have the staff to send it around to shed know how and facilitate things, and therefore their preferred option is to keep control. and i think i can, i can spend that of the patent lawyer. i mean, i think there should do something here, but i can understand that they want to keep control a new licensing trade license. they are reasonable conditions would be a way out. but i understand that we're moving a snail's pace and that's not a good idea. or i'm broke that you have, it is an argument we often hear you force these companies to, to give up by payton's to waiver patients. and you store problems for the long term that you put people off, investigate future cures and, and remedies. well, i don't think we should forget that governments and charities in best to brilliant and did tens of billions of dollars in the development and clinical approval of the

vaccines we're currently seeing on the market governance invested significantly, and also had done so significantly before the pandemic because industry was under investing and vaccine technology platforms and government really took up the slack in that regard. but we also have to look at what the money that's coming in into the coffers. there are estimates that the industry stands to make between 98000000000 and 190000000000 dollars this year from vaccine sales. so the idea that they have not already earning return on investment is natalie week. it's per postures for minimal investments on their own. instead, which were larger investment for larger subsidized by governments there and they are earning or miss, or any incredible returns. and then, you know, keeping this recipe secret. now i do agree and loop in the proponents of the waiver have agreed. patents alone are not enough. we need the confidential information to

trade secrets the manufacturing, know how in some, in some cases the cell lines. we need the underlying technology as well. and so the proponents have very clearly stated why the other intellectual property bears need also to be overcome. what my theory of, of the importance of the waiver is that if need be, it could be apply, it could be implemented at the national level and applied by countries. but i think the stronger possibility is with the threat of the waiver. it even stronger if the waiver exactly passed and adopted by the w t o. the drug companies didn't actually, manufacturers will come to table in a different way. instead of backing off from sharing technology, they will realize it's in their interest to share voluntarily. because now there's a credible threat of been voluntary action thus far with no, the threat of didn't dawn, terry action, we see a tight control within the existing cartel, inadequate supplies. there are many other barriers that need to be overcome,

including the staffing and the somewhat extent investments and improving facilities and so forth. but the idea that we should just continue to wait and africa and the rest, the global south will be no waiting with a beggar bowl. while the us and europe continue to stockpile to buy additional doses 422220222023. to begin to prepare to distribute doses for new variance and booster shots. well, health workers in africa still are doing without. it's just outrageous. but other than even if there is a waiver of the peyton's is the developing world in a position to deliver, to administer the vaccine quickly. the u. s. was very quick at investing and developing a vaccine. it locked behind when it came to putting jobs in arms. why thinking, ne, not think we don't have this kind of problem actually, just so you said that we enroll gradually. we have a half

a 1000000 of the population was vaccinated in one day. i think when i used to vaccination, the culture of us to vaccination is, is here in africa and africans. i really know the importance of vaccination. the problem, i think probably countries it down to boxes because when they will get to 30 to 6067 percent, that the other 33 percent will not be vaccinated. and we'd come back to the same point. they will have more vaccine on their hands. and do, would we be waiting for other people for other hesitant to to come vaccinate the other thing? i think it's a really more when you start talking about luck to nathan children and we have entries, and people are asking africa, max nathan, i do understand that when you have investment, you have a huge investment in time and money when you are a company. but they think that what they are afraid goal is to set a precedent. that's what they are afraid. they think that by sitting this precedent,

they will open up the door and maybe more cases like that will become in the 2nd thing. they don't want to share the technology for one reason because they are afraid this may be, competitors will be there will be creating competitors. actually if they think that we don't have a know. so what is the problem? i don't see any problem. we could just, let's left the wave wave the, the protection and let this country try to do it. but i think they are not doing it because they want to keep the rest of the be afraid, all that there will be creating more competitors in the future. i'm not sitting up a precedent for this kind of approach. it's paul isn't the argument that the bio biotech companies make the best, could set up a precedence a bit of a red herring. this is a unique global event, a pandemic. this is, this is a one off surely. well, i mean, if you look at, if you care to look at the trips agreement,

this is the exceptional scenario for the one off case. you know, this is not rewriting because the agreement, i mean maybe you saw us including myself, would like to rewrite strips agreement, but this is not happening. this is using the emergency exit for an emergency situation. so i really don't think this is about them being afraid of losing it. all, some people in the, in the state, no doubt are afraid of that. but i don't think that's the general feeling. i should also point out that, you know, in reality, i mean, do you carry united states under recently, they know like for over themselves in defense of the european union, it should be said that they have all most next for as many years. so i think there is a genuine is proficient effort going all to share. and i think in these i would agree with my colleague in morocco, the developing countries, i mean of my family in law comes from asia. i mean,

they are very well equipped and very well able to vaccinate and they are rolling out as quickly as they can. so i think we really should find the way voluntary with the backup are indeed over, attract the pressure, so there should be more licensing that they should be more productive if we can find all material. if we can distribute the thing that logistics in that we should roll it out more quickly, beatrice waiver be through hollow risky. i think of all risky by the, by a friend is probably the more realistic one. and i hope that we get there in september of my colleagues of that talk to late the better late than never broke. what role is geo politics playing in all of this? russia and china stole a limelight where they were the 1st to start giving out to start distributing vaccines outside their own countries wouldn't help the european union if they were, if they were to encourage a waiver and, and see that the vaccines distributed more widely. well, i think, you know,

the perspective as i understand from my, my car colleagues in the global cell is that the specter of rich countries race to the front of the line and stockpile doses. in some instances, a 10 doses for, you know, each person and their country for them to now be standing in the way of additional supplies coming to, to countries that haven't even been able to vaccinate one percent of their population. i mean, it's truly outrageous and it's already has been said, the variance create a risk. it's a stupid policy from the perspective of europe as well. europe should just simply admit that it's made a mistake. that, that at this point in time, preserving the profits of the industry is no match to the viral firestorm which is approaching from all sides. the longer people remain on vaccinated, not only will they die, their family suffer, their economy suffer, but variance will grow and they threaten whatever vaccine progress has been

accomplished in the global morse. so it's a stupid policy and up for geo political reasons and more recent and public health reasons jerk should change of position in the us should help europe change his position by acting hand in hand with india and south africa to actually produce a text. and to do so over this vacation period. so they come back in september and say we have a draft text. but see if germany wants to stand alone in opposing a text that now has the u. s. and premature on it. i don't think that's going to happen. so yeah, you know, europe in particular needs to stop its opposition and be seen as actually contributing to a more robust global response in the u. s. s. to get off the fence and actually make the waiver happen. either the in this deal at pfizer and beyond tech have signed to fill and finish in south africa. send the product out africa to be filled up. they're not going to start doing producing until the end of next year with

distribution. early in 2023 seems a very long way off considering as we know how quickly variance seem to appear, how do we get things moving more quickly? why agree with you about it? because i think when you look at it from a scientific point of view, from just common sense, actually because you will not want to take this risk actually leaving huge numbers of population without the vaccine because it's could, it's a really terrible thing. get terrible. this isn't, it says it might have and you are in some buster, you will be coming back and start another pandemic. and i think i have to say the word actually i could, i resisted but i have to say stupid. it's really stupid to do that. i think the other thing just coming back to the position between the europeans and the americans. i think they just play in good cop bad cop. i mean that's the real thing . i think they are on the same page and they are just trying to buy time because

the position for the company is it's a really strong one. but my question will be based on what, what you asked me, what are the alternatives, what we should do, we should just let this country by time and, and then they would from or go to december of go to the next year and leave not just this countries because when i talk about buying in africa, in globalized word, i'm talking to her work because you're going to be going everywhere. should we just leave this country decide for that? i think it's really the concerns to stop portion of the w t o. it's a really good questions in this matter. while that was a very quick question on the w t o for you paul, how much is its credibility at stake with this is already had trouble from donald trump when he was president. what's on that was on state care for the w. c. o. very quick counsellor, please. i think there's all the united states under the drum, and it's not really changing a little a significantly undermine the power of

w t. o. to reach an agreement to do anything without significant backing from the u . s. this is not going to happen as a w to you will eventually perish. but i think what we need, 1st of all, is the us to start pulling the european example and supplying all the salt piles of vaccines, developing countries that is not happening. that would put us in a much stronger position to sort of leadership in the w t o. later on and say well, we're doing this. and now all of us are towing in the line and we're going to agree in a waiver. i think that will be the way forward, otherwise w 0 will perish and will be farther away from any solution that we ever were and broke. how long do we agree this way before 3 years seems to be a number the bonded about? is that sufficient, or is this a permanent thing? you want to say? well, i pick a decent, frank last as long, so it's demick. last i think 3 years was a minimum proposed by the proponents. i think there's going to be negotiation on

that. if there's a set time, i actually think it should be longer than 3 years, 5 or 6 years, even because we just don't know how long the variance are going to continue to circle the world. but you know that that's really a minor issue in the real sense. if we get some expanded production, if we get control this pandemic, collectively the world is gonna be so happy, it's going to be able to move forward. socially families are going to be able to do things that they haven't, haven't been doing businesses and economic activities to rebound. the longer we procrastinate, the longer we protect the interests of one industry, only big pharma, the longer this pandemic last. so the waiver the, the duration of the waiver would actually need to be much shorter if it were passed . that's, that's the irony of the situation. or are gentlemen, we are unfortunately out of time, but thank you to you all to brook baker to as it never he, me, and to poll torments, and thank you to for watching,

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