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provinces. un figures show more than 240000 people have been entirely displaced by the conflict since the beginning of may. meanwhile, emergency talks of being held in doha, in an effort to stop the violence. with the u. s. envoy for afghanistan at joining negotiations, sama and elza, as warner taliban, against coming to power through force, saying that they would be isolated from the rest of the world. i'm a jump. jim has more. look at a statement that was issued by salma lewis before he arrived here in durham, which stated in several planned rounds of meetings over 3 days. representatives from countries in the region and beyond. as well as for multilateral organizations, will press for a reduction of violence and cease fire and a commitment not to recognize a government imposed by force. that statement seems to indicate that all the assembled parties here were trying to convey a message to the taliban that it will be no international recognition of any government that is seized by force by the taliban in afghanistan. and are all the

headlines if you're appears prime minister, a amit is urging all capable civilians to join the fight against rebels. integra government launched and offensive in the northern region last year. the rebel group is continue to make gains pushing into the surrounding areas. fighting into rise for more than 2000000 people from their homes, and more than 50000 fled to neighboring c dawn and new york governor andrew cuomo has resigned a week after an inquiry found he sexually harassed several women. cuomo has faced increasing pressure to resign in recent days, including from the us president joe biden. the investigation found he groped kissed, or made suggestive comments to women, including current and former government workers. cuomo has denied any wrong doing say, with us for the stream that's coming up next. me

. ah, ah ah, ah, hello, i'm carry in for me. okay, and you're in the stream. today we ask, what are the dangers, a deep sea mining? you look at the risks and rewards of mining the sea bed for renewable energy. if you're watching on youtube, please to join in the conversation. leave your comments and questions. on our live chat, we will be reading them and we will include them in the discussion. in the ocean lie which some say are crucial resources for expanding world renewable energy, the discovery of mineral riches along the sea. bad

a spark mining mania. but also concerned about environmental impact specific nations or deep sea mining main frontier and stand to benefit greatly. well, also though, being the 1st to feel any negative repercussions here. so some of those in those communities have to say the pacific ocean has long been viewed as a great empty space out of sight and out of mind. for pacific people, the ocean is our identity. and the source of well being, we are the ocean in its preservation, we are preserved. and as guardians, we are drawing the pacific blue line to protect our ocean in calling for a global bam, against deep sea mining. the biggest challenges that are part of mining government has not represented the full experience of environmental risk will be mine, injury and public consultation. we have just returned on a voyage on our traditional voyage and canoe watson across our group islands,

where we received considerable support, right, cause of at least 10 years to collect more independent environmental data, as well as to bode our local capacity to help inform decisions. so isn't more toria needed to protect the ocean, wanting us to discuss this from faint g marine pins, u l e, and ocean activists and coordinated with specific network on globalization. that's a regional organization promoting economic justice and globalization across the pacific and tele, where so emily, a professor of energy and the environment at the university of delaware is also a former advisor on environmental and social impact assessment to the deep sea mining company known as deep grain and in boston, massachusetts science journalist daniel ackerman, welcome to everyone. daniel, i'm going to start with you with the most basic question. explain to us what deep sea mining is. yes, so deep sea mining is basically the extraction of mineral resources from the bottom

of the ocean. and there are a number of different ways that it could work. but one of the most common proposals is to collect these resources called poly metallic nodule. so these nodules form over millions of years at the bottom of the ocean and they're really rich and cobalt nickel, copper and manganese. a lot of these metals that we could potentially use for electric car batteries or wind turbines, things that will fuel the green economy. and so one of the more common proposals for forgetting the nodules which can be miles below the surface on the, on the sea floor is basically to do the kind of vacuum cleaner system of the sea floor. and it would start with these maybe dump truck size collector vehicles that would roam around on the sea floor, collect the nodules and all the associated sediment. and he watered down there and send all that material up, a huge pipe to the surface where

a ship might be. as you can see here, a ship might be waiting at the surface on the ship, the nodules themselves, those valuable resources would be extracted. and then all the remaining sediment and the water would be flushed back into the ocean at a depth yet to be determined. so that's kind of the basics of how this could work. ok, so that part about it being flushed back into the ocean. is that where the main concern is, what does this mean to the flesh all those back into the ocean? yeah. that, that is one of a number of points of environmental concern that a lot of marine biologists or conservationists are saying like, hey, we need to take a pause and really study this more deeply. because when you flush sediment into the deep ocean environment, that really, that could potentially really disrupt the organism that live there. because the deep ocean is usually very clear, there's not much sediment or stand floating around in the water there. so the

effects of flushing sediment are not totally well known at this point, but it could, for example, disrupt the visual system of animals that rely on bio luminescence to communicate or it could impact the filter feeding mechanisms of animals that basically get their food by filtering sea water, so there are a number of potential concerns with that sediment plume. okay, and one more question before i bring in the other guest, so i can explain what the plumes are you here, this term plumes a lot. as you do research on this, explain what that is. yes. so there are 2 plumes that would be generated by a deep sea mining operation. so the 1st is way down on the sea floor and it's called the collector plume and it basically is all the sediment that will get kicked up into the water from the vehicle that is actually down there doing the collection of the nodules. so it's kind of this, the dust cloud near the bottom of the ocean and then the discharge plume,

which is all of that sediments and the water that is returned after the ship has removed the nodules at the surface. that discharge plume, you know, you might, it's not a great analogy, but you might think of it as kind of a room of smoke, but basically it's this extra sediment that will go back into the ocean and could potentially travel for kilometers away from the discharge site. but the exact behavior that plume and impacts is still a pretty you know, intense topic of study for scientists right now. going to be an intense topic on the show as, wow, silly. and so i want to talk more about the things that daniel says could be extracted from the sea bed. tell us more about what those are and what the idea is to you to use them for here. so essentially, the barley, metallic nonuse, are unusual and that they have 3 metals, particularly which are well suited for the next generation of car battery that's

being used already in many electric cars, but is likely to be also used in future electric cars. so there are alternatives being developed and or 3 metals, or nichol, manganese and cobalt. so it's unusual to find all 3 of these metals in one or body. so that's what is key to the nod yours. okay, and maureen, the, when you look at the video, it seems almost obvious that this is disturbing, an environment that we don't know a lot about what, what do you think when you visualize what this is? i think it's we have, we'll experience as in the pacific, the pacific ocean and particularly countries like pump and guinea will one of the 1st for foreign countries to issue commercial license for deep se mining to

nautilus, inc. this is way back in the early, 2010 to begin commercial mining. it's never been done anywhere else. we have real experience in terms of impacts communities in p and g. you have reported that these tenements just 30 kilometers away from villages and communities in the bismark see, they reported what daniel describes, which is sedimentation. this, they call it cloudy, and as of the ocean affecting their livelihoods, the ability to go catch fish. and certainly cultural practices in the case of fishermen have reported that they've had to go further and further out. so i think there's 2 components in terms of understanding impact to are in the pacific. we know in the very early phases of exploration, what impacts look like. and so when you look at those kinds of videos that you just

played, they, they just really the visuals that those are kind of just prototypes of what these really machines would look like. the machines could way up to 300 tons. it's almost like land base opens where you scrape the surface. so i think the appreciation of what impacts would look like the day. it certainly quite different and focus if it communities we have real experiences with exploration in our region at the, at this time. so i think we to mostly just so sorry to interject maureen, but to clarify for the audience, the nautilus project was in the n g territorial waters. and it was not not deals. it was actually hydro move in very different kind of or so the impacts were different and what is being proposed currently is an international water. it would

be under the international c bed, a positive regulation, which was not the case with the b n g venture. so just to be fair, we want to make sure the audience knows that nautilus is not the same, even though the same person as linked to both projects and the extraction is qualitatively different. morning you, you can certainly respond. well, i think i did qualify that we have real experiences in terms of proposals for dipping mining within effects, but i think daniel's point around understanding getting back now and i think you could speak to the recent mit research that came out around sediment prove we know that in terms of impact, the sediments can stay in the water columns for up to 400 days. it could travel distance of about a 1400 kilometers, which would touch the edge of

a country like carry bus, which is one of the closest in terms of he says to the clarity and pivot. and so when you're talking about where the i see is regulating that, so i agree and i did qualify the 2 differences. but my point be, is that we have experiences real experiences of what keeps the mind can do. daniel, let me ask you something. so aim reference the on the i say the international c bet authority. and obviously we're going to talk more about what types of research needs to be done in the pros and cons. but this, this is a what, what type of body is this? i mean, is this what, who would do oversight if this were, if there were to be more deep sea mining? it is yes. so the highest a, the international c bet authority is an organization that was charged by the united nation. specifically to both preserve and regulate industry that happened on the the bed of international waters. so one thing that the essay has

been doing in recent years is trying to develop basically a rule book, an exploitation code of exactly how countries could go about extracting mineral resources from the c bed and international waters. that discussion has been ongoing for a number of years, but there's actually been a renewed sense of urgency to that work because earlier this year, now really the island nation announced that it would like to go ahead and move forward with the plan to do deep sea mining with the subsidiary of a company called the metals company. and that announcement by now route basically gave the international the bet authority to years in order to finalize that extract exploitation code. basically, to finalize the rule book of how to regulate and oversee deep sea mining. so this is something that is moving forward in the next couple of years. so lame is 2 years

long enough to, to do the type of research that's necessary. well, keep in mind that the international, the bird authority has been around for more than 20 years. so there has been activity across almost 2 decades in terms of scientific research. and i'm also very concerned. i mean, i'm an environmental plan number training and i am very concerned about impacts as well. but i am concerned at systems level impacts. so we have a major problem with reference replacement change. we just saw. busy the ip report issued yesterday, which has very grave forecast the what's going to happen. so we have very tough choices to make. we have some optimal solution. do we want to manage to adaptation or do we want to find ways of mitigation or technologies like electric cars and so on. and when we do not have options, like for example, recycling,

which is often presented. we all want recycling, would we not? we all need metal stocks to recycle and we just do not have the metro stuff. so that's why the 2 year timeline needs to be taken in context because i p. c. c is telling us that we have so little time to deal with climate change. we have all these other pressures and so that's why i became interested. ok. so i think that one of our viewers on youtube is really something up summed up where we are in this conversation. said, is it ethical to do this to sacrifice the bottom of the ocean for achieving our greener world? so that's basically what we're talking about. we're trying to, we're describing doing something that is bad, potentially for the ocean to make life greener above the ocean. isn't that basically what we're, we're discussing moraine weighing the pros and cons of that. absolutely, and i think the point about climate change is quite critical. there's very little depreciation in terms of the ocean. as

a climate regulator. it's well in terms of sequestering carbon and keeping carbon within the ocean system. there is still outstanding with such to be done to understand how the mining will impact the climate regulatory functions of the ocean itself. whether it will release carbon into the atmosphere as a result of carbon that sits on the bottom of the sea flow. but there's also significant scientific research coming out of the states quite clearly that on the sea floor itself are these missing seats. now me saying has the greenhouse gas is $3.00 to $4.00 times, much, much more potent than carbon dioxide itself. so i think it's quite if you hit one of these methane sit on the sea floor and find his calling this a con matic. catastrophe. if we do that, so i think on the side, and i think the, your, your central point is that we're not looking at the ocean as that system,

which is already regulating the climate. and appreciate that whether we are paying only attention to the minerals for renewable energy sources. and i think that's highly problematic, particularly for the pacific island countries in which were the forefront of climate change impacts. so we really understand that for batteries is about, you know, those in the wealthier countries. so last green washing of this min was problematic . so you talked about, you brought it kind of people keep saying this is for batteries for renewable energy. but i mean, the big car companies right now seem to not want to be involved specifically b, m, w, valvo and google, which is not a car company, but the bigger companies say that they are not going to be using ocean mine, metals. and so we know more about actually what it is that they do. daniel,

how would you, character swing guys just, just a quick interjection. you know, that has been used as an easy campaign slogan. those companies, if you read the fine print, they are really making no tangible commitment. it was an easy way for them to just make the and you will have be and will be our point. but the reality is that if they are need, like, even test, like, you know, test lab said for example, that one of their cars, they're going to use, lithium, i'm phosphate, which doesn't need whole board. well, if you read the fine print, they are still trying to source bars from blank or a major go bard mining company. and it's only one model in china where they're using these. so you have to be very careful. unfortunately, the devil is in the details. when you go into this, so and then i want to let me ask you something, is this both sides have their equal support for an equal against or is how would you balance this? yeah, i mean i'm not sure exactly. you know how big the support versus opposition is on

this because it is a pretty new and developing issue to a lot of civil society groups. but i think one thing that's important to consider here is when i talk to proponents of gipsy mining, whether in the scientific community or in the industrial community, you know, one of the big pros or deep the mining would be, you know, we can off that some of the environmental damages of land based mining. so you know, mining things like copper or cobalt from of mine on land can cause degradation of drinking water quality. it can cause deforestation. there are a number of labor issues and including child labor in some cases. but i think it's important to, to point out that if the world as a society does move ahead with the p mining, that doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to shut down all of the land be mine . so there's really an open question here about whether deep sea mining is going to

substitute for, you know, the environmental damages that we see on land for land based mining, or whether gipsy mining will be in addition to land face mining operation. we do have a lot of people watching my flames. i just went to your home and i'm, so i just, i wanna bring in some of our and the rest on you to specifically christian roches. com. it describes this in christian's opinion is just destroying the, the sea floor. and we do have some other, some other thoughts from people that, that are describing some of the risks of this. so we need to continue to discuss, discuss, so let's listen to that. this, the mining will have long lasting impact at the mining side. the question is, how these local effects of the mining might potentially cascade through the larger ocean ecosystem. for example, 2 commercial fish stocks. the question we as a society needs the answer is, can do the mining and beat help us solve the climate crisis and are the environmental risks of the mining worse,

the environmental benefits of solving the climate crisis. 500 issues trying to snow cross the world came together to undermine and emphasize some of those very risks. they noted the ocean mining could accelerate species extinction. the ocean mining could create large toxic lens which are a hazard. the seafood in could undercut the productivity of fisheries and the ocean mining when impaired a capacity of our oceans to start current, carbon, and help us from the fight against climate change. alright, so really crass question that i'm just going to ask does, does the future of deep sea mining and really come down to who can make money off of it? and how much i know this is being framed is something about making the environment cleaner. and we hope that that is the motivation, but sometimes does it just come down to that marine? well, i think the, the, the key point here is that we, it is very clear plan typically that the impact will be reversible. and in some

cases, they will be no ability for the systems to recover within human timeframe. so i think the point about the level of hom, we are willing to risk at this point when we know so little about in terms of wider ramifications on other protective economies. if you'd like, from our point of view as pacific civil society collective withdrawn hon. blue line, we think that based on the best available signs, understanding the width that's been taken, we would, we don't think that it's the mind has any role to play and should have anybody to play at this kind of current point in time in history. ok, so very, i'm sorry, we're almost out of time, but we're almost out of time and i want to lean to be able to respond to that. you see the challenges that you keep saying? $500.00 marine scientists note marine scientists, not system scientists,

people who are looking at the whole planetary issue, there's become the parochialism around each ecosystem. these are well intentioned, brilliant people, the 500 scientists, but they are not looking at this from a macro perspective. unfortunately, we do not have any free lunch in the universe. we will end up having to make some trade off. we do that on a daily basis. so i think daniel's point is very important. we have to 1st make sure, if deep the mining is to happen, there must be offsetting with reference to terrestrial mining. because the, the only cogent case to be made is that there needs to be some reduction on fester mining. as someone who study trust mining for 20 years, the impacts are terrible. and in terms of social disruption far worse than that, you have people this located physically. and that does not happen. one of the reasons some pacific islands like now who are interested in because they have been ravaged by terrestrial mining. and they see this as an opportunity to have revenue that i can, if i could just jack here the actual very,

very quickly, very quickly look, using pacific island states, such as now lou to justify and how strict tipsy mining is really, really inappropriate. i think it is almost like comparing apples to pairs comparing learn base mining and to see miami. i think the jury is really quite clear on impacts off to the mining on the ocean floor. premise occasions will be beyond you cannot remediate what you destroyed these endemic species phone anywhere. we don't even know how much. alright, ok daniel, you're going to have the last word and very, very quickly. i'm interested in a point that lee made when he talked about. there's been a lot of talk about how car companies don't want to be involved in this is a business, did they really lead themselves wiggle room that at some point they could jump on board with this if they want to. yeah, i mean

a commercial deep the mining operation realistically isn't going to get started for a number of years. at this point. it's hard to say whether it's 5 or 10, but you know, years down the line if that becomes a viable source of cheap cobalt for car batteries, you know, they could turn to that, but for the time being. and again, it's not all car companies, but charlotte is baldwin, b. m w, have made these commitments at least in the short term to avoid metals from the dc . but of course, those metals are not yet on the market anyway. ok, and that will be the final word, daniel ackerman. silly molly marine tinge wally, thank you for joining me for this conversation. we appreciate it very much. now we're going to pause the conversation right now, but a very big thank you. as i said to our guests, into our youtube community for joining us for this discussion, that is all for now. take care. we'll see you later. who's

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which is here. when ever you ah ah, hello, i'm marianna murphy and london, our main story this our taliban line and campaign to seize territory. and i've gone astonished, resulted in 3 more provincial capitals falling under the groups control. they now have far. i city in the south west for a homebody in the northern babylon province and now 5 bod city. this is the capital of baghdad, sean province. afghan government forces fighting to keep hold of herat. helmand and candle. let tells me to shot.