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a week the latest to fall are fully hungry and fire about in the north philosophy in the south. it comes as peace talks, continue in for a 2nd day. rob mcbride is in cobble with the latest the latest that 2 provincial capitals are relatively small, poly comrey and phase about but they are strategically geographically quite important, especially poly comrey. this is a small provincial capital but it brings the taliban presence much closer to cobble itself. and it also means that in this way, the northern afghanistan, it's really only mazata sharif, which is a very big, very important government stronghold. it's just about the last government stronghold in the north. wildfire have killed at least 42 people in algeria prime minister hayman, but not the rough man said 25 soldiers died during a rescue operation. in the mountains of the jaya and to view the government says he

believes awesome is responsible. flames have ravaged forests and at least 16 provinces. since monday, a course in china has sentenced the canadian man to 11 years in prison after finding him guilty of spying. the court says michael bobbo will be deported, but it's not clear when he was detained, alongside another canadian in 2018. the case is a seen by author as b james retribution for the arrest of top chinese tech. executive mang one joe, brazil's congress is voted against the return to pay for ballots that next year's presidential election. it's a major blow for president enjoyable scenario. he's been pushing to end electronic voting, flaming is open to fraud. hasn't provided any evidence. it's the stream next day with us from talk to al jazeera,

we roam, did you want the un to take? and his stop to we listen, see the whole infrastructure and being totally destroyed. we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter on our sierra with more than 200000000 cases, the curve of 19 worldwide governments, a backing to fight fresh wave of the virus. a new variance to has been a 3rd. and the number of people working, vaccination appointment from human cost to political and economic. i'll just bring to the latest on the pandemic. this will have vaccinated more than 1100 people here, all of them migrant farm workers, people on home testing because they think that there is a risk to democracy, special coverage. and i'll just there is who's hello, i'm rachelle kerry in for me. okay. and you're in the stream today we ask,

what are the dangers a deep sea mining? look at the risks and rewards of mining the c bed for renewable energy. if you're watching on youtube, please to join in the conversation. leave your comments and questions. on our live chat, we will be reading them and we will include them in the discussion. ah, and deep in the ocean lie which some say are crucial resources for expanding world renewable energy. the discovery of mineral riches along the sea. bad a spark mining mania, but also concerned about environmental impact specific nations or deep sea mining main frontier and stand to benefit greatly. well also though, being the 1st to feel any negative repercussions here. so some of those in those communities have to say the pacific ocean has long been viewed as a great empty space out of sight and out of mind for specific people, the ocean is our identity and the source of well being. we are the ocean in its

preservation, we are preserved and is guardians, we are drawing the pacific blue line to protect our ocean in calling for a global ban against deep sea mining. the biggest challenges that are part of mining government has not represented the full extent of environment with the manager in public consultation. we have just returned on a voyage on our traditional voyage and canoe model was across our moving group islands, where we received considerable support, right, because of at least 10 years to collect more independent environmental data. as well as to build our local capacity to help inform decision, there is a more toria needed to protect the ocean. wanting us to discuss this from faint g marine pins, u l e, and ocean activist and coordinated with specific network on globalization. that's a regional organization promoting economic justice and globalization across the pacific and north delaware. so emily,

a professor of energy and the environment at the university of delaware, he's also a former advisor on environmental and social impact assessment to the deep sea mining company, known as deep grain and in boston, massachusetts science journalist daniel ackerman, welcome to everyone. daniel, i'm going to start with you with the most basic question. explain to us what deep sea mining is. yes. so dp mining is basically the extraction of mineral resources from the bottom of the ocean. and there are a number of different ways that it could work, but one of the most common proposals is to collect these resources called poly metallic nodule. so these nodules form over millions of years at the bottom of the ocean and they're really rich and cobalt nickel, copper and manganese. a lot of these metals that we could potentially use for electric car batteries or wind turbines, things that will fuel the green economy. and so one of the more common proposals

for, for getting the nodules which can be miles below the surface on the, on the sea floor is basically to do the kind of vacuum cleaner system of the sea floor. and it would start with these maybe dump truck size collector vehicles that would roam around on the sea floor, collect the nodules and all the associated sediment. and he watered down there and send all that material up, a huge pipe to the surface where a ship might be. as you can see here, a ship might be waiting at the surface on the ship, the nodules themselves, those valuable resources and be extracted. and then all the remaining sediment and water would be flushed back into the ocean at a depth. yes. to be determined. so that's kind of the basics of how this could work . okay, so that part about it being flushed back into the ocean. is that where the main concern is, what does this mean to the flesh all those back into the ocean?

yeah, that is one of a number of points of environmental concern that a lot of marine biologists or conservationists are saying like hey, we need to take a pause and really study this more deeply. because when you flush sediment into the deep ocean environment, that really, that could potentially really disrupt the organism that live there. because the deep ocean is usually very clear, there's not much sediment or stand floating around in the water there. so the effects of flushing sediment are not totally well known at this point, but it could, for example, disrupt the visual system of animals that rely on bio luminescence to communicate or it could impact the filter feeding mechanisms of animals that basically get their food by filtering the water, so there are a number of potential concerns with that sediment plume. ok. and one more question before i bring in the other guest so it can explain what the plumes are you here to

this term? plumes a lot. as you do research on this, explain what that is. yes. so there are 2 plumes that would be generated by a deep sea mining operation. so the 1st is way down on the sea floor and it's called that collector plume. and it basically is all the sediment that will get kicked up into the water from the vehicle that is actually down there doing the collection of the nodules. so it's kind of the dust cloud near the bottom of the ocean. and then the discharge plume, which is all of that sediments and the water that is returned after the ship has removed the nodules at the surface. that discharge plume, you know, you might, it's not a great analogy, but you might think of it as kind of a room of smoke, but basically it this extra sediment that will go back into the ocean and could potentially travel for kilometers away from the discharge site. but the exact behavior that plume and impacts is still a pretty, you know, intense topic of,

for scientists right now. and it be an intense topic on the show as wow, filling. so i want to talk more about the things that daniel says could be extracted from the sea bed and tell us more about what those are and what the idea is to use to use them for here. so essentially the metallic nonuse are unusual and that they have 3 metals, particularly which are well suited for the next generation of car battery that's being used already in many electric cars, but is likely to be also used in future electric cars. so there are alternatives being developed and or 3 metro nichol, manganese and cobalt. so. busy it's unusual to find all 3 of these metals in one or body. so that's what is key to the non deals. okay, and maureen, the, when you look at the video,

it seems almost obvious that this is disturbing. an environment that we don't know a lot about what, what do you think when you visualize what this is? i think we have wheeled experience as in the pacific, the pacific ocean and particularly countries like pump and guinea will one of the 1st for fun countries to issue commercial license for deep sea mining to natalie is inc. this is way back in early 2010 to begin commercial mining, it's never been done anywhere else. we have real experience in terms of impacts. communities in p and g has reported that these tenements just 30 kilometers away from the looters and communities in the bismarck c reported is what daniel describes, which is sedimentation. this, they call it cloudy,

and as of the ocean affecting their livelihood ability to go catch fish. and certainly cultural practices in the case of tang fishermen have reported that they've had to go further and further out. so i think there's 2 components in terms of understanding impact to the pacific. we know in the very early phases of exploration, what impacts look like. and so when you look at those kinds of videos that you just played, they, they just really the visuals that those are kind of just prototypes of what this will, machines would look like. the machines could way up to 300 tons. it's almost like land base opens. we use great the surface. so i think the appreciation of what impacts one look like the day. it suddenly quite

different and i focus if it communities we have real experiences with exploration in our region at the, at this time. so i think we need to mostly just so sorry to interject maureen, but to clarify for the audience, the nautilus project was in the n g territorial waters. and it was not not deals, it was actually hydro move in very different kind of or so the impact for different and what is being proposed currently is an international water. it would be under the international c, better parties regulation, which was not the case with the b, n g venture. so just to be fair, we want to make sure the audience knows that nautilus is not the same, even though the same person has linked to both projects and the extraction is qualitatively different morning. you can certainly respond. well, i think i did qualify that we have real experiences in terms of proposals for deep

thing mining with ease is what i think daniel's point around understanding back now . and i think you could speak to the recent mit research that came all around sediment close. we know that in terms of, in fact, the sediments can stay in the water columns for up to 400 days. we could travel distance of about a 1400 kilometers, which would touch the edge of a country like carrier boss, which is one of the closest in terms of these, it's to the clarity and pivot. and so when you're talking about where the i c is regulating that, so i agree and i did qualify the 2 differences, but my point b is that we have experiences. real experience of 150 miles can do. daniel, let me ask you something. so a reference fee on the, i say, the international seabed authority,

obviously we're going to talk more about what types of research needs to be done and the pros and cons. bit this, this is a what, what type of body is this? i mean, is this what, who would do oversight if this were, if there were to be more deep c mining it is. yes. so the, i say the international authority is an organization that was charged by the united nation, specifically to both preserve and regulate industry that happens on the the bed of international waters. so one thing that the essay has been doing in recent years is trying to develop basically a rule book, an exploitation code of exactly how countries could go about extracting mineral resources from the c bed in international waters. that discussion has been ongoing for a number of years, but there's actually been a renewed sense of urgency to that work because earlier this year, now really the island nation announced that it would like to go ahead and move

forward with the plan to do deep sea mining with the subsidiary of a company called the metals company. and that announcement by now route basically gave the international authority to years in order to finalize that extract exploitation code. basically, to finalize the rule book of how to regulate and oversee deep sea mining. so this is something that is moving forward in the next couple years. so aim is 2 years long enough to, to do the type of research that's necessary. well, keep in mind that the international, the bird authority has been around for more than 20 years. so there has been activity across almost 2 decades in terms of scientific research. and i'm also very concerned. i mean, i'm an environmental plan number training and i am very concerned about impacts as well. but i am concerned at systems level impact. so we have

a major problem with reference replacement change. we just saw the report issued yesterday, which has very grave forecast the what's going to happen. so we have the tough choices to make. we have some optimal solution. do we want to manage to adaptation or do we want to find ways of mitigation or technologies like electric cars and so on. and when we do not have options, like for example, recycling, which is often presented. we all want recycling, would we not? we all need metal stocks to recycle and we just do not have the metro stuff. so that's why the 2 year timeline needs to be taken in context because it is telling us that we have so little time to deal with climate change. we have all these other pressure and so that i became interested. ok, so i think that one of our viewers on youtube is really something up summed up where we are in this conversation. said, is it ethical to do this,

to sacrifice the bottom of the ocean. for achieving a greener world. so that's basically what we're talking about. we're trying to, we're describing doing something that is bad, potentially for the ocean to make life greener above the ocean. isn't that basically what we're, we're discussing marine weighing the pros and cons of that. absolutely. and i think the point about climate change is quite critical. there's very little depreciation in terms of the ocean. as a climate regulator. it's well in terms of sequestering carbon and keeping carbon within the ocean system. there is still outstanding research to be done to understand how deep the mining will impact the climate regulatory functions of the ocean itself. whether you can release carbon into the atmosphere as a result of carbon that sits on the bottom of the c flow. but there's also a significant frontier research coming out of the states quite clearly,

but on the sea floor itself is missing seats. now be seen as the greenhouse gas is $3.00 to $4.00 times, much, much more potent than carbon dioxide itself. so i think it's quite if you have one of these may say in c on the c 4 and find his calling in this kinetic catastrophe. if we do that. so i think on the side, and i think the central point is that we're not looking at the ocean as that system, which is a way to regulating the climate and appreciate that whether we are paying only attention to the minerals for renewable energy sources. and i think that's highly problematic, particularly for the pacific island countries in which were the forefront of climate change impacts. so we really understand that for batteries is about, you know, those in the wealthier countries. so last green washing of this was problematic. so

learning you talked about, you brought it kind of people keep saying this is for batteries for renewable energy, but i mean, the big car companies right now seem to not want to be involved. specifically b, m, w, valvo and google, which is not a car company, but the bigger companies say that they are not going to be using ocean mine, metals. and so we know more about actually what it is that they do. daniel, how would you characterize sling, or you just, just a quick interjection, you know, that has been used as an easy campaign slogan. those companies, if you read the fine print, they are really making no tangible commitment. it was an easy way for them to just make the and you will have be in core p r points. but the reality is that if they are need, like, even tesla, you know, test lab said for example, that one of their cars, they're going to use, lithium, i'm phosphate, which doesn't need whole board. well, if you read the fine print,

they are still trying to source bars from blank or a major go bard mining company. and it's only one model in china where they're using these. so you have to be very careful. unfortunately, the devil is in the details. when you go into this, so and then i want to let me ask you something, is this both sides have their equal support for an equal against or is how would you balance this? yeah, i mean i'm not sure exactly. you know how big the support versus opposition is on this because it is a pretty new and developing issue to a lot of civil society groups. but i think one thing that's important to consider here is when i talk to proponents of gipsy mining, whether in the scientific community or in the industrial community, you know, one of the big pros or deep the mining would be, you know, we can off that some of the environmental damages of land based mining. so you know, mining things like copper or cobalt from mine on land can cause degradation of

drinking water quality. it can cause deforestation. there are a number of labor issues and including child labor in some cases. but i think it's important to, to point out that if the world as a society does move ahead with the p mining, that doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to shut down all of the land be mine . so there's really an open question here about whether deep sea mining is going to substitute for, you know, the environmental damages that we see on land for land based mining, or whether gipsy mining will be in addition to land face mining operation. we do have a lot of people watching for us. i just went to your home and i'm, so i just, i want to bring in some of our the on you to specifically christian roches comment describes is increasing opinion is just destroying the, the sea floor. and we do have some other, some other thoughts from people that,

that are describing some of the risks of this. so we need to continue to discuss, discuss, so let's listen to that. did the mining will have long lasting impact at the mining side? the question is, how these local effects of the mining might potentially cascade through the larger ocean ecosystem. for example, to commercial fish stocks? the question we, as a society needs to answer its tendency mining indeed help us solve the climate crisis. and are the environmental risks of the mining worse, the environmental benefits of solving the climate crisis? $500.00 scientists now cross the world came together to undermine and emphasize some of those risks. they noted. ocean mining could accelerate species extinction, the ocean mining and create large toxic claims which are hazardous in could undercut the productivity of fisheries. and the ocean mining land, impaired a capacity of oceans to start current carbon, and help us in the fight against climate change. alright,

so really crass question that i'm just going to ask does, does the future of deep sea mining really come down to who can make money off of it and how much i know this is being framed is something about making the environment cleaner. and we hope that that is the motivation, but sometimes does it just come down to that, maureen? well, i think the, the key point here is that we, it is very clear typically that the impact will be reversible. and in some cases, they will be no ability for the system. so we cover within one time frame. so i think the point about the level of hom, we are willing to risk at this point when we know so little about in terms of wider from if cations on other protective economies. if you'd like, for my point of view as pacific was assigned to collective withdrawn hon blue line . we think that based on the best available signs,

understanding the width that's been taken, we would, we don't think that it's the mind they have any role to play. and should have anybody to play at this kind of current point in time in history. ok, so very, i'm sorry, we're almost, we're almost out of time and i want saline to be able to respond to that. you see the challenges, you keep saying, $500.00 marine scientists note marines, scientists, not system scientist, people who are looking at the whole planetary issue, there's become the parochialism around each ecosystem. these are well intentioned, brilliant people, the 500 scientists, but they are not looking at this from a macro perspective. unfortunately, we do not have any free lunch in the universe. we will end up having to make some trade off. we do that on a daily basis. so i think daniel's point is very important. we have to 1st make sure, if deep the mining is to happen, there must be offsetting with reference to terrestrial mining. because the,

the only cogent case to be made is that there needs to be some reduction on fester mind and someone will study trust mining for 20 years. the impacts are terrible. and in terms of social disruptions far worse than the see you have people dislocated physically. and that does not have been one of the reasons some pacific islands like now who are interested in because they've been ravaged by terrestrial mining. and they see this as an opportunity to have revenue that i can if i could just interject here, they're actually very, very quickly, very quickly look, using pacific island states, such as now lou to justify and how strict tipsy mining is really, really inappropriate. i think it is almost like comparing opposed to pairs comparing land based mining and to see miami. i think the jury is really quite clear on impacts off to the mining on the ocean floor. from if occasions will be

beyond you cannot remediate what you distort these endemic species phone anywhere. we don't even know how much. alright, okay. daniel, you're going to have the last word and very, very quickly. i'm interested in a point that lee made when he talked about, there's been a lot of talk about how car companies don't want to be involved in this is a business. do they really lead themselves wiggle room that at some point they could jump on board with this if they want to. yeah, i mean, a commercial deep. the mining operation realistically isn't going to get started for a number of years. at this point. it's hard to say whether it's 5 or 10, but you know, years down the line if that becomes a viable source of cheap cobalt for car batteries, you know, they could turn to that, but for the time being. and then again, it's not all car companies, but charlotte is ball building b, m w has have made these commitment, at least in the short term to avoid metals from the deep sea. but of course, those metals are not yet on the market anyway. ok, and that will be the final word,

daniel ackerman, selena lee, maureen, tinge wally, thank you for joining me for this conversation. we appreciate it very much. now we're going to pause the conversation right now, but very big. thank you. as i said to our guests, into our youtube community for joining us for this discussion, that is all for now. take care. we'll see you later. who's in the wake of the car and then a race, right? how much can someone take before the class? the fight recognition is crucial. we needed corner heads to prevail, brothers, in lieu of angry fable. and that was said,

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