to do any other thing, the formalities of the medical, his 41000000 dollar contract and his unveiling over. now it's time for messy to step on the pitch. he should do that the training this week and in a much for real, by the end of the month, pull race out his era, paris. ah, hello, this is al jazeera and these other top stories. wildfires have killed at least 65 people in algeria 28 of those were soldiers who died during the rescue operation. 5 have ravaged forests in at least 16 provinces since monday. august here is l to at tech cadet drum reports. yes, any mosier had a cobra out there. this is the 2nd major wildfire and now it's area this summer. i 1st was in country i was state a few weeks ago or 10000 hector is a foreign land burned down. more than 42 wildfires were witnessed in the vicinity

of foreign villages in the state of tis hughes you were last night. people watched in horror and were displaced by the fire where the residence of tried to help civil defense teams and their efforts to put out fires near their house. well, i know the states have tried their best and have offered more civil defense and firemen teams to help to the people here are talking a lot about material losses in agriculture and they're all a farm. the efforts of the civil defense teams supported by the jury, an army and a lot of volunteers are ongoing to rescue the citizens and find new shelters for the the taliban has taken another 3 provincial capitals in afghanistan. that's 9 in the under awake the leg, his 2 police camry and 5 the bad in the north and fara city in the south. may my talks continue in, jo ha! for a 2nd day, a chinese court has sent him the canadian man to 11 years in prison after finding him guilty of spying. businessmen, michael spencer was detained alongside another canadian citizen in 2018 canada sees

the cases as politically motivated. amnesty international says brutal acts of sexual violence have been used systemically as a weapon of war into grime. the rights group says if you ever try and soldiers, right, hundreds of women and girls subjecting some to sexual slavery and mutilation, amnesty secretary general says they could amount to crimes against humanity. a british diplomat has been arrested in germany, also being accused of spying for russia. he said to have sent documents obtained from his workplace to the russian intelligence service. poland. that parliament is set to vote on legislation that critics say would demand or damage rather media freedoms. opponent say that could lead to the closure of a u. s. on broadcast a critical of the polish government. those are the headlines, and news continues with come all after the stream. i'm emily anglin. bye for now. talk to al jazeera. we roam,

did you want the un to take and who stopped you? we listen. you see the whole infrastructure and being totally destroyed. we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter on our sierra. ah, hello, i'm rochelle kerry in for me. okay. and you're in the stream today we ask, what are the dangers of deep sea mining? look at the risks and rewards of mining the sea bed for renewable energy. after watching on youtube, please do join in the conversation. leave your comments and questions. on our live chat, we will be reading them and we will include them in the discussion. the deep in the ocean lie what some say are crucial resources for expanding world renewable energy, the discovery of mineral riches along the sea. bad

a spark mining mania. but also concern about environmental impact is if nations are deep sea mining main frontier and stand to benefit greatly. well also though, being the 1st to feel any negative repercussions here. so some of those in those communities have to say the pacific ocean has long been viewed as a great empty space out of sight and out of mind for specific people, the ocean is our identity and the source of well being. we are the ocean in its preservation, we are preserved. and as guardians, we are drawing the pacific blue line to protect our ocean in calling for a global bam, against deep sea mining. the biggest challenge is that our mining government has not represented a full extent over environmental risk will be mine, injury and public consultation. we have just returned from a voyage on our traditional voyage and canoe. my mother was across our move in group islands where we received considerable support, right,

because of at least 10 years to collect more independent environmental data, as well as to both our local capacities to help inform decisions. so is a moratorium needed to protect the ocean, wanting us to discuss this from faint g marine pins, u l e, and ocean activist and coordinated with specific network on globalization that's regional organization promoting economic justice and globalization across the pacific in newark, delaware. so emily, a professor of energy and the environment at the university of delaware is also a former advisor on environmental and social impact assessment to the deep sea mining company, known as deep grain and in boston, massachusetts science journalist daniel ackerman, welcome to everyone. daniel, i'm going to start with you with the most basic question. explain to us what deep sea mining is. yes. so deep sea mining is basically the extraction of mineral resources from the bottom of the ocean. and there are

a number of different ways that it could work, but one of the most common proposals is to collect these resources called poly metallic nodule. so these nodules form over millions of years at the bottom of the ocean and they're really rich and cobalt nickel, copper and manganese. a lot of these metals that we could potentially use for electric car batteries or wind turbines, things that will fuel the green economy. and so one of the more common proposals for forgetting the nodules which can be miles below the surface on the, on the sea floor is basically to do the kind of vacuum cleaner system of the sea floor. and it would start with the maybe dump truck size collector vehicles that would roam around on the sea floor, collect the nodules and all the associated sediment. and he watered down there and send all that material up, a huge pipe to the surface where

a ship might be. as you can see here, a ship might be waiting at the surface on the ship, the nodules themselves, those valuable resources and be extracted. and then all the remaining sediment and water would be flushed back into the ocean at a depth yet to be determined. so that's kind of the basics of how this could work. ok, so that part about it being flushed back into the ocean. is that where the main concern is, what does this mean to flesh all those back into the ocean? yeah, that is one of a number of points of environmental concern that a lot of marine biologists or conservationists are saying like hey, we need to take a pause and really study this more deeply. because when you flush sediment into the deep ocean environment, that really, that could potentially really disrupt the organism that live there. because the deep ocean is usually very clear, there's not much sediment or sand floating around in the water there. so the

effects of flushing sediment are not totally well known at this point, but it could, for example, disrupt the visual system of animals that rely on bio luminescence to communicate. or it could impact the filter feeding mechanisms of animals that basically get their food by filtering sea water. so there are a number of potential concerns with that sediment plume. ok. and one more question before i bring in the other gas, so it can explain what the plumes are you here to this term? plumes a lot. as you do research on this, explain what that is. yes. so there are 2 plumes that would be generated by a deep sea mining operation. so the 1st is way down on the sea floor and it's called the collector plume and it basically is all the sediment that will get kicked up into the water from the vehicle that is actually down there doing the collection of the nodules. so it's kind of this, the dust cloud near the bottom of the ocean and then the discharge plume, which is all of that sediments and the water that is returned after the ship has

removed the nodules at the surface. that discharge plume. you might, it's not a great analogy, but you might think of it as kind of a room of smoke, but basically it's this extra sediment that will go back into the ocean and could potentially travel for kilometers away from the discharge site. but the exact behavior and that plume and its impacts is still a pretty, you know, intense topic of, for scientists right now. and it be an intense topic on the show as, wow, silly. so i want to talk more about the things that daniel says could be extracted from the sea bed. tell us more about what those are and what the idea is to you to use them for here. so essentially the metallic nonuse are unusual and that they have 3 metals, particularly which are well suited for the next generation of car batteries. that

being used already in many electric cars, but is likely to be also used in future electric cars. so there are alternatives being developed and or 3 metals, or nichol, manganese and cobalt. so it's unusual to find all 3 of these metals in one or body. so that's what is key to the non deals. okay, and maureen, the, when you look at the video, it seems almost obvious that this is disturbing, an environment that we don't know a lot about what, what do you think when you visualize what this is? i think we have real experiences in the pacific. the pacific ocean in particularly countries like pump and guinea. we're one of the 1st for fun countries to issue commercial license for deep sea mining, to nautilus,

inc. this is way back in early 2010. to begin commercial mining, it's never been done anywhere. so we have real experience in terms of impacts communities in p and g. you have reported that these tenements just 30 kilometers away from villages and communities in the bismarck c reported is what daniel describes, which is sedimentation. this, they call it cloudy. and most of the ocean affecting their livelihood, stability to go catch fish. and certainly cultural practices in the case of tang fishermen have reported that they've had to go further and further out. so i think there's 2 components in terms of understanding impact to the pacific. we know in the very early phases of exploration, what impacts look like. and so when you look at those kinds of videos that you just

played, they just really the visuals are, those are kind of just prototypes of what these will, machines would look like. the machines could way up to 300 tons. it's almost like land base opens where you squeeze the surface. so i think the appreciation of what impacts one look like the day. it certainly quite different and consider communities. we have real experiences with exploration in our region at the, at this time. so i think we typically just so sorry to interject maureen, but to clarify for the audience the nautilus project was in the n g territorial waters. and it was not not deals, it was actually hydro move and very different kind of or so the impact with different and what is being proposed currently is an international water. it would

be under the international c, better parties regulation, which was not the case with the b, n g venture. so just to be fair, we want to make sure the audience knows that nautilus is not the same, even though the same person as linked to both projects the and the extraction as qualitatively to free morning. you can certainly respond. well, i think i did qualify that we have real experiences in terms of proposals for dipping mining with the effects, but i think daniel's point around understanding getting back now and i think you could speak to the recent mit research that came all around sediment close. we know that in terms of impact, the settlements can stay in the water columns for up to 400 days. he could travel a distance of about a 1400 kilometers, which would touch the edge of

a country like carry boss, which is one of the closest in terms of he says to the clarity and pivot. and so when you're talking about where the i c is regulating that, so i agree and i did qualify the 2 differences. but my point be, is that we have experiences real experiences of 150 my and can do daniel, let me ask you something. so aim reference fee on the i say the international c bet authority. and obviously we're going to talk more about what types of research needs to be done in the pros and cons. but this, this is a what, what type of body is this? i mean, is this what, who would do oversight if this were, if there were to be more deep sea mining? it is yes. so the, i say the international authority is an organization that was charged by the united nation, specifically to both preserve and regulate industry that happens on the bed of international waters. so one thing that the essay has been doing in

recent years is trying to develop basically a rule book, an exploitation code of exactly how countries could go about extracting mineral resources from the c bed in international waters. that discussion has been ongoing for a number of years, but there's actually been a renewed sense of urgency to that work because earlier this year, now really the island nation announced that it would like to go ahead and move forward with the plan to do deep sea mining with the subsidiary of a company called the metals company. and that announcement by now route basically gave the international the bet authority to years in order to finalize that extracts exploitation code. basically, to finalize the rule book of how to regulate and oversee deep sea mining. so this is something that is moving forward in the next couple of years. so lame is 2 years

long enough to, to do the type of research that's necessary. well, keep in mind that the international, the birthday party has been around for more than 20 years. so there has been activity across almost 2 decades in terms of scientific research. and i'm also very concerned. i mean, i'm an environmental plan number training and i am very concerned about impacts as well. but i am concerned at systems level impacts. so we have a major problem with reference replacement change. we just saw the report issued yesterday, which has very grave forecast the what's going to happen. so we have very tough choices to make. we have some optimal solution. do we want to manage to adaptation or do we want to find ways of mitigation or technologies like electric cars and so on. and when we do not have options, like for example, recycling,

which is often presented. we all want recycling, would we not? we all need metal stocks to recycle and we just do not have the metro stock. so that's why the 2 year timeline needs to be taken in context because it is telling us that we have so little time to deal with climate change. we have all these other pressures and so that i became interested. ok, so i think that one of our viewers on youtube is really something summed up where we are in this conversation. says, is it ethical to do this to sacrifice the bottom of the ocean for achieving a greener world? so that's basically what we're talking about. we're trying to, we're describing doing something that is bad, potentially for the ocean to make life greener above the ocean. isn't that basically what we're, we're discussing marine weighing the pros and cons of that. absolutely, and i think the point about climate change is quite critical. there's very little depreciation in terms of the ocean. as

a climate regulator. it's well in terms of sequestering carbon and keeping carbon within the ocean system. there is still outstanding research to be done to understand how deep c mining will impact the climate regulatory functions of the ocean itself. whether you can release carbon into the atmosphere as a result of carbon that sits on the bottom of the sea flow. but there's also a significant scientific research coming out of the states quite clearly that on the sea floor itself, are these missing seats. now be seen as the greenhouse gas is $3.00 to $4.00 times, much, much more potent than carbon dioxide itself. so i think it's quite if you have one of these may say in c on the c 4 and find his calling, this a con might take catastrophe if we do that. so i think on the side, i think the central point is that we're not looking at the ocean as that

system, which is a way to regulating the climate and appreciate that whether we are paying only attention to the minerals for renewable energy sources. and i think that's highly problematic, particularly for the pacific island countries in which we're the whole fund of climate change impacts. so we really understand that for batteries is about, you know, those in the wealthier countries. so last green washing of this min was problematic . so you talked about, you brought it kind of people keep saying this is for batteries for renewable energy, but i mean, the big car companies right now seem to not want to be involved specifically b, m, w, valvo and google, which is not a car company, but the bigger companies say that they are not going to be using ocean mine, metals, and so we know more about actually what it is that they do. daniel, how would you characterize so if you just, just a quick interjection, you know,

that has been used as an easy campaign slogan. those companies, if you read the fine print, they are really making no tangible commitment. it was an easy way for them to just make the and you will have be in p r point. but the reality is that if they are need, like, even tests, like, you know, test lab said for example, that one of the cars they're going to use, lithium, i'm phosphate, which doesn't need whole board. well, if you read the fine print, they are still trying to source code borrowed from blank or a major co bard mining company. and it's only one model in china where they're using these. so you have to be very careful. unfortunately, the devil is in the details when you go into this. so and then i want to let me ask you something, is this both sides have their equal support for an equal against or is how would you balance this? yeah, i mean, i'm not sure exactly. you know how big the support versus opposition is on this

because it is a pretty new and developing issue to a lot of civil society groups. but i think one thing that's important to consider here is when i talk to proponents of the mining, whether in the scientific community or in the industrial community, you know, one of the big pros or deep the mining would be, you know, we can offset some of the environmental damages of land based mining, so you know, mining things like copper or cobalt from of mine on land can cause degradation of drinking water quality. they can cause deforestation. there are a number of labor issues including child labor in some cases. but i think it's important to, to point out that if the world as a society does move ahead with the p mining, that doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to shut down all of the land be mine . so there's really an open question here about whether deep c mining is going to

substitute for, you know, the environmental damages that we see on land from land based mining, or whether gipsy mining will be in addition to land face mining operation. we do have a lot of people are doing it for just so into your home, and i'm, so i just, i want to bring in some of our and the rest on you to specifically christian roches . com. it describes this in christians, opinion is just destroying the, the sea floor. and we do have some other, some other thoughts from people that, that are describing some of the risks of this that we need to continue to discuss, discuss. so let's listen to that. this, the mining will have long lasting impact at the mining side. the question is, how these local effects of the mining might potentially cascade through the larger ocean ecosystem. for example, 2 commercial fish stocks. the question we, as a society needs to answer is, can see mining indeed help us solve the climate crisis. and are the environmental risks of the mining worse,

the environmental benefits of solving the climate crisis. $500.00 scientists and across the world came together to undermine and emphasize some of those risks. they noted. ocean mining could accelerate species extinction. the ocean mining could create large toxic claims which are hazardous suited in could undercut the productivity of fisheries. and the ocean mining land impaired a capacity of our oceans to start current carbon, and help us in the fight against climate change. alright, so really crass question that i'm just going to ask does, does the future of deep sea mining and really come down to who can make money off of it? and how much i know this is being framed is something about making the environment cleaner. and we hope that that is the motivation, but sometimes does it just come down to that marine? well, i think the, the, the key point here is that we, it is very clear plan typically that the act will be reversible. and in some cases,

they will be no ability for the systems to recover within human timeframe. so i think the point about the level of hom, we are willing to risk at this point when we know so little about in terms of wider from if cation on other productive economies. if you'd like, from our point of view as pacific civil society collective withdrawn hon blue line, we think that based on the best available signs, understanding the width that's been taken, we would, we don't think that it's the mind to have any role to play. and should have any role to play at this kind of current point in time in history. ok, so very, i'm sorry, we're almost out of time, but i, we're almost out of time and i want to lead to be able to respond to that. you see the challenges that you keep saying, $500.00 marine scientist note, marine scientists, not system scientists, people who are looking at the whole planetary issue,

there's become this parochialism around each ecosystem. these are well intentioned, brilliant people, the 500 scientists, but they are not looking at this from a macro perspective. unfortunately, we do not have any free lunch in the universe. we will end up having to make some trade off. we do that on a daily basis. so i think daniel's point is very important. we have to 1st make sure, if deep the mining is to happen, there must be offsetting with reference to terrestrial mining. because the, the only cogent case to be made is that there needs to be some reduction on fester mining as someone who study trust mining for 20 years. the impacts are terrible. and in terms of social disruption far worse than that, you have people dislocated physically and that does not have been one of the reasons some pacific islands like now who are interested in because they have been ravaged by terrestrial mining. and they see this as an opportunity to have revenue that i can, if i could just jacked the actual very,

very quickly, very quickly look, using pacific island states, such as now lou to justify and how strict tipsy mining is really, really inappropriate. i think it is almost like comparing apples to pairs comparing learn base mining and to see miami. i think the jury's really quite clear on impacts off to the mining on the ocean floor. premise occasions will be beyond you cannot remediate what you destroyed these endemic species found anywhere. we don't even know how much. alright, ok daniel, you're going to have the last word and very, very quickly. i'm interested in a point that lee made when he talked about. there's been a lot of talk about our car companies don't want to be involved in this is a business. do they really lead themselves and wiggle room that at some point they could jump on board with this if they want to. yeah, i mean, a commercial deep. the mining operation realistically isn't going to get started

for a number of years at this point. it's hard to say whether it's 5 or 10, but you know, years down the line if that becomes a viable source of cheap cobalt for car batteries, you know, they could turn to that, but for the time being. and then again, it's not all car companies, but charlotte is ball building b, m w has have made these commitments at least in the short term, to avoid metals from the dc. but of course, those metals are not yet on the market anyway. ok, and that will be the final word, daniel ackerman. silly marie marine tinge. wally, thank you for joining me for this conversation. we appreciate it very much. now we're going to pause the conversation right now, but very big. thank you. with i said to our guests, into our youtube community for joining us for this discussion. that is all for now . take care. we'll see you later. who's

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