i've never seen anything like it and i really like the connection with united nations and cope. 26. that's great. follow up action and show i wish i could just go back. so call to action on festival stages, both real and virtual. as the performing arts make a come back to the messages. it's not too late for the earth to bounce back to go to whole al jazeera edinburgh. ah, just so rom, the reminder of all top stories the taliban is captured has got his phones. the largest city of head up is the 11th provincial capital to fall over the past week. the armed group gain control of gauze the earlier on thursday as it pushed towards the capital cobble. charlotte bellis has more residence. then we took about half a dozen page for her. oh said the same thing that they would tell yvonne and all

the streets in the center of town that they had come into town this afternoon. pushed through they had been trying to get into the city for about a month. but they made a breakthrough cross through the front line this afternoon and they broke into the prison. they got into the police compound. they got into the governors compound that they released all the prisoners residents telling us that that they had prison is one man said my relatives were in the prison another in my house, and they could hear gunfire. but they said us driving through town. that gunfire is not coming from clashes from security force. it is, is, it is celebration reagan fire. the us and u. k. s. ending at least 3600 troops to cobble to help pull out embassy, staff, and local interpreters, washington incense. it's not a full evacuation and the embassy will remain open. you know that these notes are being counted in zombie as presidential and parliamentary elections. president gilling, who is seeking a controversial 3rd term and was thought to be an extremely tight race to dollars

for the president could soon be in the hands of the international criminal cause. its chief prosecutor is in talks with sued these officials to hand over those wanted for atrocities into awful. in the early 2, thousands a cargo ship is spilling oil into japanese waters. after breaking in half the crimson palarez ran aground while sailing inside hace. no port or 21 chinese and filipino crew members have been rescued. some some vice chairman will be a free man in the coming hours after being granted parole. j. wylie's been serving a 2 and a half year prison sentence for bribing. a friend of south korean, former president, it's unclear if he can return to work. and you can follow those stories on a website down there, dot com on these and half now with me, but next it's inside story to stay with us. news, news, news,

news. news is cars at 9 games. heard immunity becoming a mid you virus variance and the unequal distribution of vaccines are making it more difficult to achieve that goal. so we'll government need new strategies to control the pandemic. this is inside story. ah, ah hello, welcome to the program on kim vanelle. scientists have long said so called heard immunity is needed to slow down the spread of covert 19. that's when 70 percent or more of the population is protected from the virus either by becoming infected or by being vaccinated. but some experts now doubt it can be achieved. the head of the

you case oxford back same group says. and because of the contagious delta variant, new infections and deaths rising steadily in person despite 3 quarters of people being fully vaccinated. andrew, paula had this warning to em peeve. we know very clearly with the current of ours that, that this tar baron to tell us and very will still in fact people have been vaccinated . and that doesn't mean that anyone who still i'm vaccinated at some point will meet the virus. i think we are in a situation here with this current parent where community is not a possibility because it's the effects approximates to individuals. and i suspect that the virus will, the next is a parent which is perhaps even better at transmitting in vaccinated populations. and so that's an even more of a reason not to be making a vaccine program around her community. other countries with high vaccination rates

are also struggling to contain the delta variant. israel, where 60 percent of adults are fully immune eyes to is reimpose and limits on gatherings and restricting and or venues to those who have been vaccinations in the us. 70 percent of adults have received at least one job. but the pace of vaccination has slowed down the military, some hospitals and businesses, and now making jobs mandatory. and heard immunity is far from being achievable in the developing world. the university of oxford are worlds and data. so it's only 1.2 percent of people in low income countries have received at least one dose of the vaccine. ah. ok, let's bring in august from new york, we have one of the other professor of epidemiology and medicine and columbia university. in hong kong, we have john nichols clinical professor pathology at the university of hong kong. and from johanna spoke helen rees, member of south africa ministerial advisory committee for cove at 19,

and coven vaccines. very welcome to all, thank you for joining us. i'd like to begin with you. what i thought the at the start of the pandemic, we were all saying heard immunity. it was the buzzword. that's what we need heard. immunity is that done and dusted. now is the cat out of the bag. i think we need at this point to, to really change the discourse and maybe change the narrative around what our goals are. and i think rather than using that term. so in unity and knowing that the vaccines we have, which are really super vaccines, do not absolutely protect against every single infection. but you know, protect against s if you're in the hospital i visions. and maybe we should move to using more of a terminology for protection rather than search in unity as much more of a seasonal goal for all of us to try to achieve. so ultimately trying and scale up vaccination around the world. so we can protect as many people around the world as

possible from the most severe effect of this virus missed calls. is that your take as well? that heard immunity is not an achievable goal? yes, i agree with what's been said before and also to pick up what you also previously said is that the 2 ways of cheating, the hood immunity with the true natural infection or through the vaccination? i think the experience from northern europe last year has shown that basically doing it through the natural infection is not the way it guy least, another terrible mortality. so yeah. so vaccination is the way to go. but the problem is, is that because we're dealing with now on a virus noted dna vars, it's always going to be music facing. and so i don't think we're going to be able to get this level of in the population of immunity that we would like to with other g. and i've seen mr. call. what does that mean for the future?

the me, well, the virus then be here with us to stay in one form or another for the foreseeable future. i think we look at the other on a bosses which ran well lines. i think influenza is a good model to use because these are the vaccine that are involved is, are always mutating. and he don't get with vaccination, a lifelong image, unity or protection. so i think we're going to be seeing like we've seen of the past year. we've got to be seeing variance of the vos evolving, and then we're going to be seeing that the fact that the vaccines, which we have will not be able to give that complete protection. so i think if you look at the extra to the went we've not been able to. she mean you see on that. so we're going to be looking at either annual vaccinations and the recognition that we were going to have to. so adapt and, and live with boss in the community. on that point, helen res. i'd like to bring you in as well as being

a member of south africa's ministerial advisory committee. for coven, you are also a member of the w t. o strategic advisory group of experts on the coven, 19 vaccine. so you're very well placed onto this question. is the world of global ball and bodies? governments? are they pivoting in the way they should be to this new understanding this new acceptance that heard immunity is not a goal that we should be looking for? i think the answer is yes. i ought to think that there's a technical definition of heard immunity. and i don't think that's what people are actually asking for. i think what the communities are saying and countries are saying if we want to get back to some sort of normality we want to protect health. we want to get so they can all make situations stabilize the income and again, but we also want to impact on transmission. and those things are not necessarily the same as achieving heard of unity. so i agree with my colleagues. what we need

to do is probably change what we're aiming for. i think we are adding a thought to normality. and in order to achieve that, we certainly need to get a vaccine coverage. well, live up, much, much higher. you mentioned the counsel zation of the d g of the counsel station and that's a goal for them to vaccination coverage by the middle of 2022. so that's the kind of thing that we, we probably need to be discussing at the moment. and what would that mean in terms of getting countries and communities back to us before we move on, i mean that goal for the continent of africa, where i believe just 1.5 percent of the 1000000000 people on the continent has actually been vaccinated is that even a realistic goal? well, the one good thing is that a lot of the countries in our region are looking towards the kodak facility, which is going to be providing the facts. and also the african union. and the

vaccines are now starting to become available. we are very much hoping that in the next 3 months that we're going to see a much larger back into the country. the. the big question for many countries however, is that we're trying to introduce the brand new back with a new target, not sure which is what we normally do into very weak health services. so the question is, will we be able to absorb back things and distribute them and get them to the, the population for most risk and then out to the board of population going to be a very big challenge. and the 3rd thing is that we have to sustain your 70 percent from under 2 percent, which is where we off is that huge chunk. and that will require a commitment not only from back the manufacturer to all the time limited income countries, including all region, but also to support the purchasing of these banks invent support services

so that we can roll about otherwise, we're not going to manage that. and if we don't manage them, we won't be able to, we have a whole continent where we're not able to get back to mission coverage up really significantly. we are not going to be able to break the back of them. ok, no fall. so that's come back to you. how is it that we've gotten to this point now where we're looking to head protection rather than heard? immunity is a matter of the vaccination rollout. just being too slow. the delta vary and coming in. what are, what are the factors that you see that have gotten us to this point? several factors, and some of them were touched on by my colleagues on this, on this program is i think it's, it's the nature of the infection itself. because what have been a charge of axioms, we have our hands, and i think we, what we know is that the vaccines don't provide for immunity, meaning protect people, the recipient of the vaccine from

a given infected. we know that that seems a really good at preventing illness and preventing optimizations in best from over 19. so because of the fact that they don't provide full in unity, meaning protection against infection, it makes it very hard to, to aim for. achieving heard in unity. so i think it is, it's an appreciation and much more realistic, realistic appreciation of the nature of the virus itself and it's transmission. it's high realty, very procedure as well as the challenge with the evolution of new and i want and the nature of the vaccines we have. all of these aren't together. give us pause in terms of amy for heard in unity. i think what we need to focus on is, as, as helen mentioned, and as well is we need to think about how can we use the vaccines we have at hand to be able to protect. as many of our population of the global population is as

possible from the severe consequences that can happen from over 19. and that means we have to scale up vast vaccine availability and distribution and deployment to places around the world where this hasn't happened thus far. there's now huge disparity that's become very evident where with richer country is wealthier countries having access to back scenes. while other countries around the world are still at the one or 2 percent coverage with the just this is just a tenable situation and it is so i always say if there's covert anywhere this covert everywhere, so we have to think and moving forward. how do we protect the global community from the dire consequences of covered 90 to the use of our vaccine? less than a goals if we're not looking to word heard immunity, we're not looking toward elimination either. are we going to start to see people

who are vaccinated getting sicker with the same virus or with new music, new mutations of this virus? i think the center is the term is i have the answer is no. right now is that those have investigated is that they can get actually very mild infection. and i think it's not just us infection, but the ability trashy transmit. because these people may be also a since matawan very mild symptoms, which is going to mean that the chain of transmission is there's not going to be broken. but as the 2 previous speakers have already mentioned, in the main function of vaccination is actually decrease the mortality and the mobility. and i think all the data which has come in been come across from all costs. well, that the fuse and the incentive in the hospital is that the thing is the unvaccinated for developing the re a disease. we're getting every now and then you know, some of the very small number of cases of moderate disease and the facts. nice. but

the main thing on the vaccination is to decrease mortality and the more business he asked you to reduce the strain on the health care, i guess i just want to try because my question, i mean the science will always be very clear getting vaccinated. you're much the font key to get very on. well, you're, you're, you're less likely to pass the virus on even. but my question is, if the virus is still going around in the community, even with the vaccinated people, are we going to see you mutations the, the office? fortunately, yes, because the, because these are the facts, these are the bosses. the more you get a boss replicating the grace of the chance of mutations can be occurring, it's just by the sheer numbers. so if you can actually get those numbers down, all the number of people being infected or the number of severe cases which are producing more than you can be reducing that chance,

but he's extra mutation to be coming in. so that's why we've been saying where there's been high rates of it in infection. that's what the mutations have been arising. so, and that's sort of the, the negative feedback is that what you don't want to have is if you can keep those mutations kind. and then that means that you don't need to come up every year with that with a new vaccine. so people break down that cycle of more vos being produced, and that's where it's going to be occurring in the reasons where there's lot of faxing coverage in, in africa and also in, in parts of asia. so i think the main emphasis on this is what i feel quite strongly about it is, is instead of that boosted those would be to actually have the vaccines where there is a more chance of people getting the primary disease. and so you can actually decrease that, that potential for more mutations come about. we'll get to booster shots at the

moment, but 1st i want to come back to you, helen reads, should we be investing more in therapies for people who are sick? you know, we have time, a flu, if you've got the flu. what about people who get covert but who are vaccinated and might just get it in a mild way i get somewhat on well, is there enough invest in? is there enough investment in your opinion in that side? no, i don't think there is. and i think that's an excellent point. i mean, one of the reasons that people individually, very frightened to this far as community had to go into locked downs repeatedly because we don't have good treatment. we don't have good treatment yet. we have some treatments, but then limited for people who are there and, and we don't have good treatment that don't people who got moderate disease or disease progressing to that serious and part. and when we got good vaccines. but we, we could also do with some other interventions in addition to them, off of the social distance of the ventilation that we are recommending to assist in,

in preventing infection. we happen to invest that i believe nearly enough in those, in those other therapies. the other problem is that some of the things that have looked very promising and indeed some of the things that are being evaluated, mouthful, and treatment of possible life patients are extremely expensive. and so once again, i guessing a secondary effect of access to therapy for rich countries, which simply would not be feasible to be either manufactured or introduced into resource limited setting. so in addition to investing much more in therapy, we also need to say to, to think about what are going to be appropriate therapy to the bus administer and to afford in resource limited mis was coming back to booster shots. israel is, is offering booster shots, the u. k. is planning to for the vulnerable to roll it out alongside the flu job

without talking about vaccine equality globally, which is a whole other issue in which we've, we've dedicated a few programs to. but from, from a science point of view, what difference will boosters make to transmission to we? do we have any data? i think we have some data that do support that for specific population, specific groups or individual it boost of those. maybe. maybe we don't have data that supports the booster for the general population. so for example, there are some data that show that for some immunocompromised independent individuals, these people would weaken the new system. for example, people receive organ transplants or people non human guy allison. so there are some data that tell us that in those individuals can be some gains in terms of a boost of their antibodies. protective antibodies after receiving his 3rd dose

after shooting and other stuff, the same vaccine that before. so that's, this is a subset of the population, and i think that may be the focus moving forward when you're discussing booster dosing is to really try to think about where we have the data and where the focus should be. rather than thinking broadly of a need for booster, for the general population overall. and this is big and then not just be some issues of equity and access globally. but as you said, also based on the find, find difficulty that we haven't had mr. nicole's. if we're not talk, if we, if we're giving up the idea of her immunity and instead looking towards her protection, what does this mean for countries like new zealand that have basically attained elimination? they're going to open up new deal and it's going to open up to vaccinated travelers from low risk countries next year. but based on this assumption that we're only going for heard protection is a global community,

a country like that is going to have to accept that the virus is going to come in. and it's going to affect the population speaking as a new zone vested interest in that. but i think the reality is that what, what works well for one country will not work well for another. and, you know, i think if you look at the across waldron for stress, stress seem to be doing very well. and then you just needed that one case to be brought into new south wales. and now you've got a 3000 people. so, so even the, the inverse relation is that way you have a low, well, with the cobit last year, is that the enthusiasm for vaccination is not as high. so, and that's a vaccination rate is higher in reason some countries which is suffered and which had may drive rates. so i think the whole problem is that we found this in many parts of the asia. we did very well well, residency. well,

in the 1st part of last year, and so the enthusiasm could take up, the vaccine was not as high as possible. and that's a really big problem, is that we're still getting that stubborn, 2530 percent, no matter what a government can do, the advertising, which is saying, basically we don't want the vaccination. so i think that's going to be the challenge for new zealand. and to those of expertise, is that how you sort of convinced that success will population lives? are the ones you just see that one case and that in that 2530 percent. and also the what we'll spend talks about is off the 70 percent. i think we're ignoring the fact that the pediatric population, which is the one which, which if you've got countries with got 1520 percent of the population, about the vaccination strategies for them. because right now what we're seeing is that where the boss is spreading, and this is the data coming out from the southern hemisphere is in the pediatric

and the young adult population. that's a group which has not been now would be vaccination, then spreading it to the parents and then to the grand parents and it goes for them . that's what it was was happens in influenza, it's a, it's that paediatrics relation which, which i think can be very challenging to get those numbers up to. for sufficient protection. i think very round the early point. it's a very different ball game for those countries that don't have that experience of you know, everyone knows somebody who's had cove it or has had close it themselves or seen their local hospital. overwhelmed, very different countries that haven't had that. i don't come back to you on that front, helen rees. what is the best incentive for people to get vaccination from a public policy point of view? what do we know works to get people out and to get those jobs? what don't think there's several things. one is that, and i think everyone's familiar with the, the anti backs expression. now that's the minority minority. and those people exist

coded and they will exist off because they don't like vaccine and have many meet that a give them for that. but the majority of the sort of such that we just mentioned are people who are never or people who don't even saw that risk. i mean, many young people in the trenches don't necessarily see themselves at risk, and that's what if i get it on the sick and body. so why is that group those 2 on know many of the reasons nothing like have we develop the vaccine too quickly that we have to be able to explain about things like compressing the timeline of vaccine development and monitoring to back in safety and, and people who want to see the vaccines rolled out, other people, the, how does it go for them before they will, they will take it so. so i think the 1st thing we have to do, i'm, you know, you've got to be here with you is do a better job from the fire perspective and the public health perspective. after

waiting those people, that cassidy to have the confidence to come for. the 2nd thing is, you know, sort of the sort of carrots and speaking the beginning to see this number of countries in that's from, for example. if you want to do that, because there's a, if you're not back to me, you really will need to have a box. and if you want to go into restaurants, if you want to go into it. so that sort of, it's the most current time to stick if you'd like. and i think we got to see more of those kinds of incentives. i put the incentives in the way because if you don't do it, you won't be able to do that now. and the thing under why discussion is whether for some joke, for example, it needs to be compulsory. the same and kenya discussion about public says, and we've seen in other countries discussion about health care workers. so if you're in a job in the age old age firm environment,

and i do, you have a responsibility and the government have responsibility show that you're backs. and i think countries around the world grappling with exactly that, hey, we're going to get there for time. thank you very much to all of our guests waffa or father john nichols and helen rees. and thank you to for want to you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website. elgin's or dot com. and to 3rd, the discussion go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at a j inside story. for me can vanelle and the whole team here in bo huh. bye bye. for now, the news news, news,

news ah, ah, the latest news breaks north of doing the best job you can. we've seen one water to teen at wells far further with detail covering the government since the taliban is relying on human shields and losing people shops and home from around the world. the price tag, toko games have officially top $15000000000.00 that already the most expensive summer games ever stage. oh, you're good risk of extinction. in bishop plan to read the nation of the privilege size of one investigate on how long before the covert crisis broke, the world was grappling with another global crisis. the climate breakdown,

destruction of nature can lead to destruction of people. all hail the lockdown examines links between these 2 crises and asked why it took a panoramic to bring on changes that should have been made long ago. all these things, we would tell him a complete impulse suddenly become connected. the wake up call that can't be ignored. on a job. me the conflict between the if you can government and the regional take great people, the direction fund has kill thousands and internally displaced more than 2000000 over the past 7 months. 350000 people in the region are facing famine, according to the united nation, which says that our vision is being used as a weapon for those who managed across the border say it's not because they have improved back home. they say it's a good continue to be targeted because if they have many problems are being reported and all they come seeking refuge conditions here. um id

ah, you won't, you know desert with me. so he'll robin in doha, reminder of our top news stories. the taliban is captured, have guns vans, 3rd largest city of her art. it's the 11th provincial capital to fall over the past week. now the and group gain control of ga, the early on thursday, as it pushes towards the capital cobble. charlotte bellis has the latest residence. then we took about half a dozen page for her. also the same saying that they would tell yvonne in all the streets in the center of town that they had come into town.