come up when the him by now, it was as if he captured the queen bee, then total disconcert ensued. confusion followed, and with that came the implosion of the movement. the moment he was captured, the shining path, which depended mainly on him, lost the war. we may lose man was sentenced to life in prison for treason and many other crimes. the war left more than 60000 dead and thousands more remain missing. those who survived still bear the scars of one of the darkest periods in peruse history. ah! this is all here. these are the top stories commemorations are taking place across the us as it remembers nearly 3000 people killed during the 911 attacks 20 years ago. one of the memorials is in new york for 2 hijacked planes. hit the world trade center twin towers in the last 20 years. my family and i have at times known

unbearable, saw and disbelief about the lives that would never be yours. we have fail with speaking out on my daughter's behalf and calling on many more precautions and also for the history to be remembered. not as numbers and a date, but the faces of ordinary people. people who looked a lot like sarah president joe biden has later reached 2 of those killed in chunks fil pennsylvania. he arrived after attending to commemoration in new york, george w bush, who was president at the time of the attack, spoke of memorial and shun self. he praised veterans who fought in the so called war on terror. here the intended targets became the instruments of rescue. and many who are now alive, o, a vast, unconscious, dead to the defiance displayed in the skies above this field. there are many who

still struggle with a lonely pain that cuts deep within and those fateful hours. we learn to other lessons as well. we saw that americans were bonneville, but not fragile. for the palestinians, who escaped from an israeli maximum security prison are set to appear in court after days in the run to all those remain at large, men escaped by tunneling their way out of google and prison in northern israel, founder, peruse, shining path, rebel rupe hatamio, grossman has died at the age of 86. it was captured almost 30 years ago, accused of causing the death. so tens of thousands of people in the 19 eighties and nineties. to people have been killed and several others have been injured. dr. tornado hit, the italian island of pennsylvania. 10 cars were cancelling, fired, 2 people are in a critical condition. and those are the headlines. the news continues here on out in about 25 minutes time after inside story. goodbye.

news. news. news. other faces and economic meltdown. the u. n. was that nearly every african will be in poverty by next year, but aid has dried up and the taliban and lot from accessing the country, foreign asset. so what will the international communities do now? that isn't ah hello and welcome to the program on iran con, much of the world is facing

a stock choice without going on. except the countries new taliban leaders or continue shutting them out. the groups in bod, from accessing the african central banks. foreign assets was $10000000000.00, and humanitarian aid has stopped flowing in. now the lens warning of an economic meltdown. 97 percent of the population could be living in poverty within a year. 60 general antonio, the terrace is calling from urgent injection of cash into i've kind of done. that means talking and dealing with the telephone. the, when the is a key role to play in humanitarian needs to have people that is now in a desperate situation. desperate situation. and so we decided that it was our duty to engage the taliban to create the conditions for the possibility of effective many 30 and a, the impartial to reach all areas. and to take into account our concerns in relation to women and girls. for instance,

already the refugee agency says it will engage the group to ensure displaced afghans receive help, many have crossed into neighboring pockets on which has been urging the u. s. to unfreeze of honest on assets. it's foreign minister says international governments can't keep isolating the tolliver, but at the same time, there is recognition of a new reality. at the same time, there is awareness that engagement is it a quiet, a dialogue for a better understanding can be useful. so i see in an interest up a desire to engage, but not a rush to recognize. ah, let's introduce our panel in cobble about i love, hear the lecture of transitional justice. the american university of on is done in pittsburgh, jennifer brick motor rush,

really an associate professor at the graduate school of public and international affairs at the university of pittsburgh. and in dublin. michael sample professor, the mitchell institute for global peace and security and justice at queens university, but fast a warm welcome to you all. let's begin in cobble 1st. now we often talk about the international community. now it might be international, but it's not much of a community, it's mishmash of competing interests and of nation states own interest. now, i'm going to look at some point you're going to have to deal with the taliban. that's going to be the reality. but until that happens, there's only really a couple of countries that are dealing with the taliban. that seems to be china and pockets on. is that the reality? do you think? i think the recent times we've seen many other periods emerge as well, especially central to them as part of if you see a pop up with regards to the airport functioning as well as the even within cobble,

they have their offices set up in sabrina. they have been quite central to the communication between the international community and the part one. and that's good . there can be more mediators as well. we do understand the international community is in a difficult situation. where for it to recognize the thought upon or engage with it too much means white washing or ignoring a lot of the violations of human rights and international law that are being committed. the taliban excused themselves by saying that these are the early stages of their state and things will get better now. but in such time or time that we don't have with the looming economic crisis and recession coming in, these mediators can play a positive role in helping the target bod set up a model for their economy, as well as healthy international community. have some sort of in direct engagement because the 1st line of fire is going to be the common upon people. if the economic

recession happens, if any sanctions are impose, there are the people that suffered in pittsburgh. jennifer, this is a situation where agencies have actually been dealing with the taller bond on the ground now for a number of years and the areas they control before they took over the whole country. there is some institutional experience in when it comes to dealing with the taliban. has that been a successful positive experience? well, it depends on who you ask. i think for the political outcomes, it probably contributed to the collapse of the state because it's a, the tal about a kind of legitimacy in the areas that if controlled taliban was very a very able to effectively channel that a to show that they could provide some kind of governance and they were issued some of the national level programs that work somewhat unpopular with the african people and able to promote the kind of basic service delivery that people

demanded. and they were able to also blend that with their, their form of dispute resolution, which at the time was much more effective and efficient than what was offered by the state. now that they are the government, this i think is a big question for all of us to look at is whether they can translate some of the things that they did at the grassroots level and their ability to channel 8 and donors in international level success. so on the one hand, it was very effective for the taliban to be able to use and utilize international n g o z who were working in afghanistan. let's remember that prior to the fall of the government does this past month, the government only controlled 30 percent of the countries territory. uncontested. right? so this means that the taliban and n jose and agencies have been working a side by side for better or worse for a very long time. i want to bring in michael. hey michael in dublin. we keep

hearing. we don't see much evidence of it so far, but we do keep hearing that this is a very different taliban to the government in 1996 that they've learned lessons that they are willing to engage to hold and talk with argument. absolutely not. i think that they taliban house done a very good job on a building up their, their media operation. they over the past almost a decade to now they operate into a political mission. and oh, how, which they used to put across the survey a rosy version of their reality, but it never really reflected what was going on the ground. i think that space, that's the case. now. i think that i think that the taliban leadership were going to find this a real challenge because it was, i was okay to have this gap while they were in the insurgency. and they weren't responsible for the fate to the people. but. but now that they're in charge, if they don't find some way of becoming a bit more compromising,

they will pay the price and 1st of all, their people will pay the price. i'll give you a classic example of this in the public, the public from the time of on leadership are talking about how they have a i'm going to stay a general amnesty for people who served with the previous government. they're saying that they want they, when they, when the united nations engaged with them, they told the united nations that they wanted african civil servants who had left the country in the evacuation to return. but then the authorities would get their feet on the desk. one of the 1st thing they do is freeze the bank accounts of all civil servants. their new minister of defense passes, i would say, and instruction saying that no single member of the former out armed forces should be allowed to join the taliban new forces. some of this of the informal comment is amongst the taliban as being the oh, maybe we can have some of the,

some of the old officers with us briefly to teach her some things and then they will, we will kick them out to the door. and we've had, we are how search is conducted against people who worked with the previous government trying to seize property, which they supposedly had with them. i generally intimidate them. so the completely contradictory messaging going going out. and obviously they, there will be consequences from trying to freeze out something like a 1000000 people who worked with the previous government and either civilian or military departments in couple of our de la do you agree with that assessment? there is an interesting quotation that kept running through my mind. do you know what the definition of madness is? it is to try the same thing and expect different results. and in this case, i mean, it's the old guard running, the kept it. how do you expect things to be different?

the problem isn't just one off an attitude problem or a behavioral issue. the issue at the core of it is incompetence is the lack of basic and skilled basic administration's goes. and here's the problem. the problem is that the thought upon, unlike other political parties and a lot of different countries in the world, and even upon a fun, didn't really function ever in an office like set up in a very formal set up or a political party. where within your party, you have your own offices, you will have your own documentation. it has always been insurgency, even back in the 199596. they never formally sat in an accepted what the more for governance was going to be in the world and tried to adapt to it. all of those are problematic thing, so it's not just about what the taliban decide to do. it's about. 1 whether they have the capacity to implemented the again,

if you're going to go with the last ration process, lockout people who worked for the previous regime or the armed forces, you are leaving a 100000 trained people with weapons in their houses who are dissatisfied with the system tell me if that doesn't mean at some point you will have an armed resistance standing up to you. if you're going to lock out everyone who's worked for the previous government, let's pilot a, do you republication something like that? the not sophistication or the deep authentication, and those are some of the major reasons why the general populace ends up being dissatisfied and leads to an event outburst from their part. so the tunnel upon really need to realize what they're up against and this isn't the hills and the battle front anymore. this is real life. the lives of 40000000 people depend on the thought, the bond to get their act together. else they will go to the i'm just gonna get reaction that from jennifer in pittsburgh. jennifer

a little bit early. you said one of the reasons that the taliban were able to keep control in the areas isn't the agencies gave them the money and therefore they were able to have a sheet of legitimacy that allowed them to government were about to make that money 1015 times larger and give it to a government, does that insulate them from the criticisms that we've been hearing from dublin in couple? well, not necessarily because it's not just about the money and the resources. it's also about the delivery. i think this is where this is what we're buy, dual as point is. spot on. the taliban has to administer and deliver this and who's going to be doing that? if all of these other organizations are frozen out, if the government so many government officials are frozen out who's going to be doing this work, the international community is engaging in the way that it once was. then who's going to be administering and delivering this on for the taliban? and i think this is

a very important question that we should be asking. but i also do think, you know, while i'm very negative about these kinds of outcomes, i think that this is really an opportunity for both the taliban in the international community to really put their heads together. if there is a real interest in this and making the government much more effective and efficient and where one thing while the depart with others is that i don't think we need people necessarily sitting in government offices and you know, with suits and ties to, to be able to do this very well. some governance issues are so simple that over the past 20 years they became so complicated. so bureaucratized, the afghan government itself was really quite messy, didn't do a lot of the direct implementation itself and where it did do direct implementation . it was caught up in webs of corruption. so there's a real opportunity to fix a lot of the issues in the maladies that gunnison has suffered from. that drove the insurgency over the past 20 years,

but i would absolutely agree to buy to law. and michael here that the taliban don't seem to be learning the lessons of government, not just of the past 20 years or 40 years, but really hundreds of years of african history. is that one? when one group rules over the entire country sort of ruthlessly. you're. we're in for a recipe for disaster and continued insurgency. michael, one of the tools, the international community, and i use the term very loosely. international community is sanctions. now, we've seen sanctions in the past in iraq, in iran, in iraq. i seem to actually strengthen saddam hussein, but affect the rest of the population and drive them into poverty sanctions. aren't really a useful tool. hey, what is a useful tool to put pressure on the taliban government? is it functions or is it something different? or as it happens i here i was part of this of the sanctions regime while

the taliban, wherein power for i was working on the humanitarian side, trying to to monitor the impact on the population and find ways of mitigating it. so we do actually have some, we do have to have some history of that of, of trying to mitigate that before we talk about actively using the, the tool of sanctions. the 1st thing which i'm sure that the international actors will try to use or to broker a new relationship with the taliban is of course assistance. and they will start talking about humanitarian assistance. they will hold out the prospect of restoration of larger amounts of development assistance and i think they will probably, they will go into a you can expect discussions starting on this really in, in the coming days. there will be a hope from the 1st of all from the united nations that we heard about at the start, but also from countries which i have in your contributing bilateral assistance. there will be a hope that they can come up with a,

an agreed way of dealing with the taliban. but i think that these are going to be extremely difficult discussions because the basic attitude amongst this is the, you know, the old guard of the movement. who are now in charge in cobble is that here we've defeated a superpower. we've defeated the world, we show that we were, that we were right. we no longer have to make concessions to any body. and we will set the terms for and the thing that happens here at the point when the internationals are likely to go into such negotiations, thinking that you know, they don't have any money. they need us. that will be a catastrophe. if, if we don't actually restore this assistance, we have certain red lines that we need to to show to our donors in terms of, for example, women's access to services. and i think they are going to fine. the taliban are no moves to compromise and the on the donors are going to have to decide, okay, are we always going to sign a blank check on humanitarian assistance?

or are we going to insist on certain principles? so definitely the tool that to see of the tool or that they, that i mean the, the main issue for discussion of the start of international engagement cobble will indeed be assistance. i will 1st of all be humanitarian assistance, but it will not be easy to get agreement on the continuation of the flows of humanitarian assistance. or we know that from the experience of last time around it, i got i was part of the, the you ends discussions with the taliban to try to go see a protocols. and the last time around it was difficult. jennifer, you've written extensively on the politics of age and what that means would between different countries and the social community here, it seems to me that what michael is suggesting is that yes, there will be a negotiation going on. but you've got 2 parties that have very different negotiating positions, adding to that there is a massive amounts of donor fatigue when it comes to giving money to the tolerable. there are a number of countries i've already said, look, we just know,

let's not do this. let's don't go down that puff what's, what's next could, can these negotiations easiest, these discussions they monetary and aid succeed under that climate? absolutely, and they already have, i mean, when we look at, by de la mentioned cutters role, they are already providing aid and assistance. a c $130.00 came in from pakistan today i saw kuhn our province delivering a china has already promised $31000000.00 in assistance, including corona, virus, vaccines. so 8 is already beginning to fall back into the country. now. is it the same levels that it was under the united states? right? the united states provided 7580 percent of the country's budget. that's going to be a huge deficit for the taliban to begin to try to fill. i don't think any of these countries in the region will be be able to fill that gap. but on the other hand, i think we're going to see as these regional players play a much more important role. as we see the united states,

this great power politics sort of recede in the region, politics in atlanta, some would become much more regionalized, probably more fractional eyes and we'll begin to see regional players fill in that gap. no, it won't be the same way. i think the united nations is going to have a hard time, but i think it's, michael suggested they don't have a lot of leverage and all of this right now, they think they do with the money in the resources that they have. but the publics in these countries, especially the united states, for example, understood that the us left in such a disastrous way. if we look at president biden's public opinion polls here in the united states, he's taken a dramatic hit for the way that he withdrew, even though there was tremendous public support withdraw. there was not support for the way he did this. if we see pictures, a famine that will inevitably occur given the current dynamics in afghanistan,

i think it will be very hard for the american public to resist. you know, talking about sanctions in such an environment seems horribly cruel when people are going to be suffering. so much so i would agree completely with michael, and i don't think the international community or the united states actually has that much leverage on the humanitarian assistance side. now, direct government aid is another question. but there are ways that this can be, that there are ways around this. for example, if we look at the health care sector enough, got this done. well, a lot of attention has been pointed to the fact that clinics have are no longer getting a furniture for we already have to talk. and i do want to come to the other guest as well. a good, a low come to you just a 2nd, but when it come to michael 1st, one of the things that we are talking about, we talk about direct government aid and international pressure is getting a partner that can work with the country that you're trying to deal with enough context on his case, but has traditionally been pocket on his pockets on a fair partner. hey, a fair negotiating partner. hey michael. i think that now that the

taliban are installed in power in kabul, the taliban are going to be extremely reluctant to accept any intermediary they are going to be demanding that they any international acts or deal directly with them. so, you know, we, we saw that even when the, the director of the pakistan intelligence service came into cobble and had a role in brokering the agreement amongst the taliban for the cabinet. this was extremely controversial, even amongst the taliban. so i think that you should expect that the, the top one will be demanding that we will talk directly on if there are, you know, if there are issues in the, with the united nations. no, no mediator or broker is going to be able to solve it. will only be solved directly between the the taliban and the international actors. now, are we going to see a smarter taliban more smarter than they were in $96.00. understand that they need

to negotiate with the international community. but it's going to be an negotiation, not a demand, because it seems to me the, i guess the saying, actually, until they stop demanding and make an actual negotiation is going to be very difficult come to an agreement. look misplaced arrogance can be her renders for countries and especially for those will rule the country. the idea is here, the ideological traditionalism that the taliban enjoy. busy enable them to live in an alternative reality at times where when they're faced with battle assessment issues as to whether they can win about the lord. not they believe that wall cory's and angels were blinded support them. when faced with a famine, they believe that god will eventually know provide for the people which means that their own agency in their own sense of responsibility is minimized. and they believe that as long as they have integrity, everything else should be fine. as your other guests said that they might do better

in the integrity department. the idea is the skill set is missing. i'm afraid that the wireless pond just seems to have come out of one corrupt region into another that has tyrannical tendencies. and it's sad because the world hadn't seen famine and hunger and the sort of price you were looking at in palestine in decades. and i really don't want over country to be the 1st example off that in recent history. jennifer just quickly is aid. the answer then is and starting negotiations at the very beginning, around humanitarian aid. a good start point or is it just actually what we're doing is it's the only thing that we can do. we can't do anything else. i think right now it is the only thing that we can do, but is a positive some outcome. so it allows the government to engage with the international community and allows that people have gone a sense received aid. we know that famine is not

a result of natural disaster famine as a political failure and we ask, emerson cannot afford another political failure like this. i want to thank all i guess i'd love to hear jennifer brick most of us really and michael sample. thank you. for watching as well. now you can see the program again anytime by this thing, a website out there, a dot com and further discussion, go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. and you can also join the conversation on twitter. we are at a inside story from me and ron calling on the whole team hit by for now. the news

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