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so he's going into the actual perspective to try to claim your global audience. how's it could impact the life? this is an important part of the world and it's very good at bringing the news to the world from here. israel's prime minister has met the egyptian president inside of my shift, but beyond their countries ties, what can i do? that has to be the offer on regional issues and whatnot. sally been its vision for peace in the middle east. this is inside story. ah, ah. hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much am john? it's the 1st official visit by an israeli prime minister to egypt in more than a decade, naphtali been its trip to the red sea resort of shutting a shift signals, a warming and relations between the 2 countries. they signed

a peace treaty in 1979, but the relationship cooled over the years been at said his meeting with president for c. c has created a foundation for deep ties in the future. the to also discussed the israeli palestinian conflict. egypt said ways to revive the peace process in the middle east or high on the agenda for the mead reports. is the 1st official visit of a news really leader in more than a decade. and it comes only a few weeks after egypt, president of the fact that his cc extended the invitation to israeli prime minister enough deli bennett. it also comes at that time when relations between the 2 countries have reached unprecedented levels since the peace agreement between egypt and israel was signed in 1979. we have to level, we have the bilateral level, and you have the regional level. i'm quite sure that in the origin level there will be more salient issues to be discussed. iran and cameras on the

bilateral. my hope is, i don't know if there will do something concrete. my hope is that egypt will change extends because we have to walk the heart to worse if you would. the real relationship on these bilateral level. it doesn't exist. the security cooperation is the bedrock up the relationship between the 2 countries. and since he came to power, 8 years ago, intelligence and military ties have grown stronger. israel agreeing that the gyptian forces in breach of the cam david accord, entered the demilitarized zone in the sign a peninsula to fight isolate. and then the prime concern for both countries. egypt broke a deceased fire during the 11 days one, gaza in may. turning that into a long term cessation of hostilities has proven more difficult. both countries, also wary of iran,

growing influence at their borders. but the middle east is changing and with it, the nature of the ties between egypt and israel stance appears to be more embracing . we have to remember that this comes against the backdrop of the normalization agreements that were signed last year between israel and 4 era countries. this represents a type of opportunity for a country like egypt to become more public, if you will, about its relationship with israel. obviously there's a, there's a strategic relationship there. there's an economic work relationship. but i think the cc administration or the cc regime rather views this as an opportunity to become more public, a chance to curry favor with the, the bite and administration in the united states. but it does describe the meeting held in the c resort of michelle. very good. but without a resolution of this really palestinian conflict, the gyptian leader won't have the backing of his people. a recent poll showed that

only 13 percent favorite relations between the 2 countries. this visit could signal the re booting of an agreement, often described as a cold piece of that. how many of egypt became the 1st arab country to sign a peace treaty with israel in 1979. but relations between the 2 countries have cooled over the years, mainly under benjamin netanyahu. tenure. nathan, yahoo was the last is really prime minister to make an official visit to egypt that was in 2011 during the presidency of the late trusting baltic. cairo has played an important role in mediating cease fires between israel and palestinian armed groups and gather most recently and may, egyptian and israeli officials have often work together on security. the countries are 2 of the united states main allies in the middle east, and are the largest recipients of american military 8 the r i was bringing our guests in

west jerusalem. gil hoffman is chief political correspondent at the jerusalem post in vienna. that would could tub is a journalist and founder of a man. net and don't have it mostly is political analysts, an associate professor at the door institute for graduate studies. welcome to the program, and thanks for joining us today on inside story. that would let me start with you today. how significant was this trip by prime minister bennett to show them a shift to meet with president a, c. c. and how important is the timing? well, the timing is a key issue now. and diplomacy thought about timing, and you see the visit the summit is squeezed between the trilateral meeting between president and king of the law and c. c. and the beginning of the un general assembly meetings in the us. so the fact that this meeting we have before the us, it means that there are upside, want to push these really into more theory effort into the piece process. now we

know that on the record necessarily been very on it in that surprising way that they don't want to have any talks with the palestinian, which is which is in a way good. but at the same time, it's very bad because what is the purpose of having these meetings? if there is no going to be an end to the occupation, which is the main goal of the arab side. and the other thing is, so we have to find a way to get the israeli prime minister to change his position from thing. we don't want to have any diplomatic talk that, you know, with the palace getting to start a serious discussion about the 2 state solution. gill at a time when prime minister bennett is trying more and more to establish his foreign policy credentials. how much of a boost did this trip give him? did give him a vote to differentiate him from this anyhow, who held private meetings regularly with c c, but purposely no public meetings. and it was

a follow up to his successful meeting in washington with president biden, who definitely suggested that prime minister bennett have such a meeting with cc. and in fact, it help safety as well. because some of the foreign aid from the united states was contingent on the gypsies ending human rights abuses and having the meeting with bennett kind of alleviate that pressure. but the timing that you asked, my a former colleague at the jerusalem post i could talk about was actually more significant because of 2 things that he didn't mention. one is that the iran talks about reconstituting the iran nuclear deal, or are speeding up again, which is something in both israel and egypt are against. and the other is the rocket fire from hamas on israeli civilians that has resumed. and there were, were talks between bennett and cc about how to,

and mcgill was just talking about iran, which certainly was high on the agenda. this meeting between president cc and prime minister, been it from your perspective. how much can the warming of relations between israel and egypt act as a bulwark against iranian expansion in the region? you know, certainly there's that there is a potential for that in there. obviously in the talk, as you mentioned in your lead up, they're going to talk about iran. that's going to be a point of emphasis. no, no, obviously talk about how mass. but i think also the timing. i think what i said yesterday, and what you mentioned in the introduction is that all of this is coming in the backdrop of, or against the backdrop of the normalization agreements that were signed last year . so from my perspective, i think there's, you know, certainly there's a strategic component that never can strategic components here. they're going to

talk about regional issues. they're going to talk about not only security issues, but also economic and trade issues. but i think a lot of this is also for, for public consumption, there's a certain level of, of media and public relations going on here. that, that's what i think is at play, especially from ccs perspective, right? he's trying to, you know, sort of build favor with the bite into the administration and distract from, from human rights abuses and kind of established himself as a relevant figure in the region in the, the global stage. you know, he's obviously committed a lot of human rights abuses. there have been a number of media relations gaps. so this gives, you know, this is, this gives the international media community something else to talk about it it's, it's important for bennett, for the reasons that you, that you already described. and i think it's interesting that cc'd is doing this

despite the fact that the overwhelming majority rejections and arabs reject normalization with israel, reject this kind of open cooperation with israel because they view it, you know, i think with some justification as, as an illegally occupying power. you look to me like you were reacting to someone who was saying there, did you want to jump in? yes, absolutely. they the abraham records started something very important last year. and each it didn't play as much as a role as it could have. and now with having the bottom restoration of putting pressure on egypt, as mohammed was saying, this is something that could lead to re igniting talks with countries that are allies of egypt, egypt taking more of a role and encouraging more countries in the region to initiate better relations with israel, whether full normalization or something along the way that would you heard and how

many gill. busy both mentioned these normalization agreements between arab states and israel. from your perspective, is that sort of the ultimate reason that we're seeing this warming of the cold peace between israel and egypt right now? no, i think the main reason is that there is not in yet how wrong, nathan, y'all was famous for making promises that he did not fulfill flying to arab leaders and king of the land. jordan is refused for a decade to take phone calls from nathan. the are so the main reason that there is no one that can, you know, but the average accord does come into head with the camp david accords. they think they want to give precedence in the camp david accords and the both the gyptian, the jordanians in the palestinian want to make sure that the bennet bite in agreement of pushing aside political discussions and just focusing on economic and other issues will not work. and what we've seen in the last few weeks with the jail

break and with the rocket issue is that you cannot use aspirin to deal with the problem. you need to really have serious discussions and they're avoiding serious discussions on the palestinian israeli conflict. if you had been at want and partly what also by didn't, one will not work. it's not going to work to push aside the hard issues. you have to deal with them because without them there is no hope. and when people have no open desperation, things happen that you don't want. and so i think politicians and leaders have a responsibility of giving people hope and without hope. things can get much worse . how may you mentioned that for president a c. c. this essentially as a way for him to curry favor with the biden administration, but i also want to ask you about what exactly i believe he sees he can offer when it comes to regional issues. well, you know, i mean, i think there are

a lot of questions about about what he can offer and then quite larger questions about his, his competence as a leader. but i think what he wants to benefit from this in addition to the things that i, that i mention, and i was mentioning sort of some of the economic dimensions. one of the things that i think is interesting, think about is the extent to which egypt stands to benefit, potentially, economically from normalizing with israel, or sort of unofficially normalizing with israel. right. or already talks about egypt, air flying direct flights to, to tell of eve several times a week. and some reports saying perhaps multiple flights daily. and then there are, there are also reports suggesting that the c c regime wants to help reconstruct garza using egyptian company. so, you know, i think it's for me, it's more about what steve, what he sees as a benefit for,

for himself. and for egypt that would of course security cooperate cooperation is really the bedrock of the israeli egyptian relationship. how much have security and intelligence and military ties grown between both countries? since president c. c came to power. they're growing a lot because has a big problem with finite finite bin hotspots for radical groups that have used it to adapt gyptian soldiers and others. and so the really egyptian corporation on security level intelligence level is an extremely high regard to actually the one area that didn't matter whether bennett there are in power. and i think the fact that they met in shadow michelle, is that i think in announcement to the radical groups that basically they're saying we want we're back in sinai and no longer has the bedrock or the hot bed

of red because and extremist and violent attacks. so i think that's probably why they wanted to have the meeting in shot. michelle, a partner sinai, and i think it is a demonstration or maybe a reward if you will, by the options to banking these really far helping them in trying to defeat the radical. they've not been totally defeated, but they're certainly been weak. and a lot, gill, we know that president a c c would like to see the revival of peace talks between the israelis and the palestinians. he said as much before and after the meeting where it is prime minister bennett, stand when it comes to potential talks with palestinians, any kind of future political settlement. and what can egypt offer in this regard? prime minister bennett is made very clear that there will be direct talks between him and a boss, and there won't be a official diplomatic negotiations. the politician closest

to ben at a yellow chick head reiterated in a speech this morning. what there will be is deepening economic ties. each minister in these railey government has been given approval to meet with his counterpart on the palestinian side to improve the palest and in quality of life. as for real negotiations, well, i think it's going to wait. not for israeli politics to change the palestinian politics, abbas is 86 years old and has been smoking to pack the day of cigarettes for more than 70 years. it wouldn't seem reasonable to make deep sacrifices to him right now that would be taking a risk that i don't think anyone would feel particularly comfortable with how much the egyptian public has largely opposed normalization with israel. is there any scenario by which you could foresee that change?

what would have to happen in order for public opinion to change significantly? well, i think israel would have to start treating ballast indians as as humans. right? i mean, if we were to start to list the human rights violations, we, you know, we wouldn't, we wouldn't have time in the short program to, to get through them. right. so i think that's, you know, that's a start. that would be a start ending, the occupation, you know, ending the apartheid system that exists and which has been acknowledged and documented not only by scholars and experts, but by a lot of israeli groups and analysts themselves. so it's, you know, something strikes me as disingenuous when we're sitting here talking about a possible piece deal while at the same time acknowledging that the palestinians are being effectively sidelined number one. and that number 2,

the 2 parties that are engaging in this discussion have themselves been historically deeply anti palestinian. i mean, israel's obviously anti palestinian. right? but but, but so as egypt, i mean, at least the, the gyptian regime, the cc regime they've been cooperating with israel and helping to enforce the blockade on guards are, which is in humane according to numerous experts and scholars who follow it. and also within the human rights groups, including israeli human rights groups. so that strikes me as you know, border, you know, bordering on the absurd that we're talking about the prospect of a piece deal. wow. effectively ignoring the palestinian side, at least a big chunk of it, and then also sort of paying homage to that israeli. i need these railings in egypt . sions who have been systematically abusing the palestinians. gil garza,

of course, is still a prime concern for both countries. are they going to be able to use this opportunity, this warming of relations to be able to form some kind of long term cessation of hostilities. we saw this week that the foreign minister of israel appeared outlined the plan to for economic development for the gaza strip. to improve the quality of life for palestinians. and that's something that i have no doubt that prime minister bennett spoke to president cc about israelis want to improve the lives of palestinians in the west bank and gaza. and in israel itself, israel has a budget that's being passed as we speak. that gives an unprecedented amount to build up infrastructure in the europe sector. there's an era party that's part of the israeli government for the 1st time ever. that's making progress in israeli arab judge was a muslim, is going to be joining the supreme court that's as far away from apartheid as

a guess. and things are only going to be getting, but that would where does the relationship between egypt and israel go from here? what i think, you know, egypt is trying to improve relations with the world. the egypt is trying to mr. ccs trying to prevent themselves as a new arab leader. and he has, you know, he, what he can deliver obviously, is what of the palestinians of god about if he can somehow deliver and they a prisoner exchange. and that will improve his position among the arabs. and they can work on a number of issues. but the, you know, you're the israeli speaker and the forum, you know, and made it clear that the current israeli government does not want to make and they talk to the palestinians. and unless you can break out of this blockade that mean a right wing,

the prime minister is put for himself and the blockaded themselves. it's not about whether what happens is 80 sticks or the smoke cigarettes or not. you're talking about people who are under occupation. imagine if your house is being occupied for 50 some years and then i say, i want to debate with the because you know, your father is a bit too old and he's sick. i think that's really racist. even the way that he presented it. if you are making a favor to the valid thing, but that they have to delay, they don't want to take a risk that about risking israel. it's about ending the occupation, which is illegal by international law. so yes, egypt and israel can do a lot, but i think the best thing that you can do, which is done is stand next to bennett and say, we have to get back to the political talks. and bennett stood there not know what to say because he has nothing to say on the issue. you cannot have a serious, long term relationship without the israeli being actively and seriously and honestly involved in talk to and occupation pushing part of the thing,

the ball down the can down the road and waiting for a few years until your p takes over is not the solution, it's only adding to the hopelessness of desperation and then you say, why do people break out of jail? why do they send rock? it's because people don't have faith in the politicians bringing about the end of the organization. that's the issue. how might it also look to me like you want to jump in a couple of minutes because i'm going to give you that opportunity. but i also want to ask you, you had mentioned earlier that you thought this meeting a lot of it was essentially for public relations purposes. from your vantage point . what are the limitations when it comes to the further growth of this israeli in a gyptian relationship going forward robin, the limitations that i, that are already described. i mean, the root causes are, you know, all still exist and nothing has really been done to, to address them the,

or the illegal occupation in the apartheid system has been well established and documented. but what i was, you know, what i was going to say earlier is with regards to the rocket fire. know when you're going to sit here and advocate for for rockets. but what i think is interesting is that, you know, i've been looking at some of the israeli media reports. what i think is interesting is that the clock always seems to start when is, when it's convenient for israel to start the clock, right? so come off just wake up one day and decides to fire rockets for no apparent reason . right. but we forget about the ongoing occupation we, we forget about daily abuses. we forget about the violent pressing or protests that the border just a couple of weeks ago. a child was killed, the palestinian 12 year old child was killed. so i think all that is important to bear and your guest gill had mentioned. but you know, reconstruction efforts are helping helping the people and parent efforts by israel

. and i didn't want to say something about that. what i think would help the gardens is if israel stopped bombing garza into oblivion periodically, if it stopped committing war crimes in gaza. has been established by human rights watch. is the israeli group that sell them and, and numerous international law scholars and experts. all right, we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guest skill hoffman that would could tub and how much re and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, algebra dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. our handle is add a j inside story for me, how much i'm doing a whole team here. bye for now. the.

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