so known for their effectiveness in helping as our b, john achieve victory over our menu in their conflict over the disputed territories of not going to car about into 1020 by that t b to drones are now used by turkey. ukraine cut are and other bay jobs. the engineer of the aircraft and chairperson of the turkish technology team foundation organizing this festival says they're part of turkey feature. tom barzyk you'll, we will never give up on our goal for fully independent country promoting technology and making turkey a country that leads in every field. hurricane faces complex than pensions on its orders. and as an 8 member, it is sometimes at all for the l. laws encountering what it regard as the threats. so turkish official and the military are keen to develop a defense industry that is independent. and this festival is designed to encourage the country to, to take part and contribute new ideas. so you now go, so a little l 0 as stumble.

ah, so this is out there are, these are the top stories and algebra has secured access to. i'm going to start by gram prison reform inmates of recounted the torture and abuse at the hands of african american soldiers, thousands of prisoners including taliban fighters were released also the u. s. withdrawal. bon jovi has more enough from travel. well, it is an extraordinary place to be, it's like a small town where you enter the walls. after tea was buildings after buildings, it is a sprawling 30 kilometer long complex where we were given rear axis. we were able to visit the cells. some of the cells were abundant with this showed us wear, their leaders were held where they were tortured extensively and where they gave us testimonies which were quite disturbing. but they say that they are happy that they

are visiting this jail once again. they say that they are okay with what happened. they say that they have forgiven the people they will not forget, but they will not seek revenge from not just the guys but from allied forces as well ensued on the sovereign councils. deputy chairman has blamed tuesdays to attempt on politicians say they've turned a blind eye on what people need. 21 offices and a number of soldiers have been arrested. gunshots have been fired the vehicle carrying the cranium president, prince blade. the attack happened in a suburb of the capital kit. please say more than at 10 bullets were fired and the driver was wounded. spanish authorities getting ready to evacuate more people as lava flows across the island of la palmer. to date with the headlines here now 0, we got more news coming up right after inside story news

news, news it was seen as a hero. there one little jet aside, the whole lease as well. now spend the next 25 years in jail for terrorism. what led to the verdict and did his criticism of the present viral, but it is a walk into the program. i'm iran, kon, from eli poll recess, a beginner is a hero. the former who told manager saved the lives of more than 1200 people by giving them shelter during the 1994 wind in genocide. the story was celebrated in the hollywood film hotel or wander. since then,

recessive beginner has become one of the most vocal critics of present polka government. the government has accused him of being part of an armed group. he's been convicted and jail for 25 years for terrorism rights groups and observe as i say, the child was a sham, designed to send a message to dissidence welcome web reports from one does capital kigali full recessive beginner, refused to come to court with his co accused to hear the verdict of his trial one does. capitol kigali. he was charged with terrorism and related offenses. prosecutors said he was behind a series of attacks that happened in rwanda 3 years ago. grim is your goal, since we really got to talk about par, is convicted of being a member of a group and participating in activities that is acquitted of creating an illegal. yeah. for him to set up by geena paul. he sentenced to 25 years in prism in recess,

a beginner was flown from divine ticket garley last year against his will. one does government suggested he was deceived into boarding a plane that is paid for international legal observers. say that was just the 1st of many problems with the trial. his family has rejected the verdict, my father was tortured, kidnapped denied his basic right. and then now they just gave him a guilty verdict. the co accused came on the stand and said that they had been a forced and co hurst and tortured into saying false things against my father. and witnesses are paid and government agent's recess. a beginner was made famous by the hollywood film hotel. rwanda. he told the story of how he saved hundreds of lives at the hotel manager. during rwanda's, 994 genocide. he then fled into exile, became so critic. everyone was president pool kick. i'm a pledge support for an opposition armed group with prosecutors. he also funded

an order a tax. recess of again denied it. most of his co accused pled guilty and their statements were used as evidence against him. the other defendants and now being led on to the prison bus to be taken back to jail recess to begin hasn't even left jail for the last 6 months, refused to participate in the court proceeding. all of the defendants. now the opportunity to appeal the court of appeal within the next 15 days. recess, the beginning and supporters have completely rejected all of these legal proceedings to date. recess, a beginner is a belgian citizen and the residence of the us. both governments have criticized the trial. one does government says justice has been delivered if he serves the 25 year sentence recess of the geena, who 67 years old, who like he die in jail. malcolm web al jazeera kigali wonder

president polka gama is a polarizing figure in rhonda. he's credited with developing the country and it's political stability after the genocide, but he's accused of silencing opponents, south africa's investigators. so could always government was directly involved in the killing of one of his critics, patrick car, gail and johannesburg in 2014 kigali has denied the accusations and any involvement in the unsolved murders of several rwandan dissidence. now the most recent was the death of a former army officer who was shot at his home in most of beaks capital, my bluetooth last week the let's bring in, i guess, in kigali yolanda macola or a one and government spokesperson and in chicago, bryan, endless director of african studies at loyola university, chicago and senior adviser to the hotel, one the recessive again, foundation and in london. jonathan, a fine answer. publisher of africa briefing

a pan african use magazine based in london. now welcome to the program. i'd like to begin with brian endless in chicago. this is nothing more than a sham trial. thank you for having me on the program. and unfortunately, i completely agree. paul recessive begin was kidnapped by their wandering government over a year ago. last august, he was not kidnapped because of any criminal charges he was taken because he has been a critic of that government for over 20 years now and they have harassed him. over that time, european parliamentarian said what fear trial process starts with the kidnapping. and following the kidnapping, he was tortured for 4 days. he was held in solitary confinement for over 250 days. in violation of the un, nelson mandela rules for treatment of prisoners. and he has had limited or no

access to his lawyers or legal documents. there was no fair trial ever intended in this case. and as we clearly see from the proceedings and from the results, no fair trial happened. in kigali yolanda macola, this was just just as being served wasn't likely the trial was 21 and suspects were conducted fairly transparently. and they presented to the quarter compelling and comprehensive part of the evidence. those presented to the ord consisted of the files that were handed over to the wrong prosecution from the belgian prosecution that searched for somebody to help. and brussels also prevented in testimony the poor kid who talked about what they had done together as well as the victim testimonies, victims of the attacks in 201820194 western, rhonda brun unless it was fat. it was transparent. the evidence was presented in

the way it should have been while you complaining let me take it point by point and thank you for bringing it up. and that is the classic answer of the rwandan government. the good news for us was it was transparent. this trial was very transparent, it was broadcast on you to every day and we were able to watch it with pulse family and paul's legal team. and we saw the unfairness unfold before our there was no compelling testimony. in fact, there was no reasonable testimony in any way, shape or form. there was nothing present. it that showed that paul or any of the coaches were guilty. the spokesperson mentioned the so called belgian dossier. there was in fact dossier that came from vulture. it was an investigation that started at the request of the rwandan government. 2019. the belgian government

cooperated with them. they put together a long document. unfortunately for the one in government, they want us to believe this document is in some way. going to indict paul. in fact, we've read the document and there is nothing in it. there is nothing to the point that in july it's a bulge in government, began talking with paul's local warrior to tell him that they were about to close the case and nothing was going to happen. there was no evidence found there any way could be used to indict fall the testimony of the co accused. and there was actually a test, a written testimony from paul to paul began this in person after person talked about their testimony. when they came up on the stand and they said it was coerced . in paul's case, it was coerced at the end of 4 days of torture. with no lawyer present, he was forced to sign a document. at least one of the code used said in court that he signed

a document. he said not even rep. his lawyer presented him with the documents. most of the co use talked about the worse than that went into their written testimony and their verbal testimony. on the other hand, in open court, transparently completely vindicated paul. busy busy and the others, they said there was no connection to paul, they didn't know him. they didn't know of the political party that paul is a part of. busy until they went to jail. and then finally because the spokes person brought it up, the victims testimony was not testimony at all. we watched victim after victim and i'm very sorry for these victims and their families. we watched victim after victim come up and they told us what they had lost. they gave us a story of the troops that were on identify that had attacked them, indoor attack. there was once they told us what property they had lost or the entries they had had,

they never identified these troops. they never identified any of the court shoot. they never said that any of these troops were a part of the group that the were wondering government alleges committed these attacks. in fact, over the entire trial from february to july 0. evidence was presented that these attacks even happened. there were pictures of some attack. there were witnesses talking about some attack. it was only the prosecutors telling us these attacks at the time, the right, let's put all of that under mcculler. what is your reaction? well, in addition to numerous numerous records, what's the conversation between the members? what planning the attacks in wonder and also plumbing how to take responsibility for them. it was of western union and other institution. so fun to to the d. r. c, to buy weapons and suppliers, the compensation about the needs of the soldiers on the ground. there were,

there were competitions as well about was begin getting military updates from the gospel, come on to the ground, he will kill you in charge of this militia. he was promoting the officer. if you decide who the spoke, people would be. in addition, what all of this was happening, don't to quiet about about this. they're still on line and will be in b, c radio. the conversations that are going to have jones bragging about, taking responsibility of a conversation with a gentleman. if there's not a crime that is not a crime, that is not a crime. having conversation with john, this is not crime. having a conversation on whatsapp privately is no evidence of can be serious. he's a crime. and he was found guilty based on the evidence that was presented in court . jonathan answer you've been hearing what to guess in kigali and chicago have

been saying clearly, this is a very controversial trial with very controversial themes, like having conversations with journalists. i mean, how much of the african imagination has this court has been controversial? indeed. yes. but germ from where i'm sits and sun observer journalists. and i'm those ever. i believe that poll rose again and it's all wrinkled though. we also on tv broke out for the day. i mean re, game must be removed by all means literature. ok, i mean, so he's set themselves up open be i say, an open names or fair pope of poker gummy. ok. and from what we got a report that we gather, i mean bon bons and i guess what

he was kicked, i'm not, i'm not going to be got experience. i've got to john this observance. vince and from what we see, i would say neither agree. it's not good for our free and for all the try out was free. ok, but sorry, jonathan, you know, we're going to come back to shortly. bye. want to, i do want to put your point to yolanda macola. this has been a trial that has been watched by international observe as it was very important for a one to to get this right and to be completely transparent. yet you've been criticized by voting government. you've been criticized by human rights organizations. is that any of those criticisms that you take on board? not at all. they have the concern that the child free and fair,

and that's what we're good. there's no one who's more interested in the free and fair trial than we were wanting to 6 months. it was meticulously carried out by the, by the judges. and they came up with was based on the evidence that was presented, including some open source, open, open sources of conduct. he's talking about this view. he's on admission. told us at the beginning was the leader of the afternoon. he called him people to mobilize to support these young men and women who are in the new forest. and he said they wouldn't leave there. they did not go to the forest to abandon it, and they will go all the tricky golly to talk to please elected government. he said this ok, well in the wrong way, the evidence, we've seen a lot of the evidence like the court to tell us talerico terrorists and no

government should tolerate terrorist, but that's what we're worried about. so the question we're asking, let me just go to jonathan, if i answer it is the most crucial point of this case, a lot of it is political. this was about recess, a beginner, saying that he was a critic of the cook army government. and that's what put him in this site. now that's maybe illegal, maybe not legal, but it depends on the countries concentration. in rwanda, it's clearly a legal to have that level of criticism from where you're sitting. you're a journalist, you're saying in london ill critical of several regimes, not including one that you fear that you might be in the sites of the run and government like other decisions have been african bridge. so really what, what is the company passwords and some tucked in my lot of way to to be careful how i report how

certain events. so things are not in africa. i mean for fear of miles k. so, but i will say, look at the present. i'm going to come and show to undermine the it's a very point you're making, but we don't have a clear connection to you. i'm going to go to brian endless. brian, one of the themes, not just of this trial, but the of could always government is that he has been cracking down on dissidence, not just recess the beginning, but others as well. do you think that's a fair criticism of him? 100 percent and i've been working on issues in wanda since 2007. it has only gotten worse since that time. and please don't take my word for it. you mentioned international organizations, human rights watch, amnesty international and others. the cooney foundation has done an excellent job

on trial monitoring on this case. they'll say this case is unfair. more importantly though, thank you for bringing it up. paul's case is not isolated. there have been thousands of victims over the past 10 decades. in the last 5 years alone, there are a wanted ex patriot groups that track these things. 300 people have been killed extra judicially inside and outside of the country by the want and government. thousands more have been arrested. we have some of the high profile cases because he told me she go, was a singer who was considered a dissident who was put in jail and then died under mysterious circumstances. yvonne damage was a housewife who had enough and who began to criticise to go online, and it was warned to stop. and when she didn't stop, she was imprisoned. former high government official, some of the people that i talked to on

a regular basis are people who were former are p f, again a party and they were very highly placed. we know the stories of patrick, you're a guy of his former intelligence chief who was very close to paul could may. and after they fell out, he was assassinated in south africa, generally. and wasa, the former either brian with letter, let's put those points to yolanda yolanda was your government looking up distance according to brian list. the evidence of guilt in this case is clear. if anyone has evidence to the contrary, they should bring in what brian was doing and what other people like you, maria, or bonding us with very high stereotypes about one and, and then the prejudice use of africa in general. this case, this case, what it will shocking about it is the total and complete removal of the victims of these crimes. no one talks about the victims. these kinds of real. they happened in

201820192 extremely little attacks to place in june and december 22 in which 9 people were killed, including 2 children, age 14 and 17 families was devastated. but this is completely ignored. the suffering is completely ignored. as is the complicity of the 20 other co defendants just because one of the difficulty found, one of the defendants was treating the 17 years ago. tariff and i'm in london. one of the reasons for me is such a powerful figure in wonder is because of his economic reforms because of his ability to manage the economy. a lot of rondon so sorry, we actually can't go to you right now, but we'll go back to your land, yolanda i want to hear from you. let's give me a give me a clear answer. this trial was criticized by human rights watch by the voting

government. you say it was a fair trial? was it floored? can you admit that? or do you think it was completely above board? he was, or did he was tried as well as in case will be tried anywhere else in the world, nothing preventing virginia from assessing the case against him and defending himself from what do you think the absent absolutely absolutely nothing more and we rebuilt it is capable except coming from all over the world than the fugitive. but to want to be try, including countries in europe. you've got a lot of people yolanda disagreeing with you. you've got a lot of people differing, including a guest in chicago. brian endless. brian, brian, tell me, sampson, just let me, let me, let me ask you a question, bryan, how much of what, how much of what you're criticizing the running government for is the classic criticism of african governments everywhere is that they're incapable of being fair

. just because they're offering, it's actually for me, it's not true at all because i've become a deep expert on rwanda. and i know many other african countries while there are issues in african countries, i honestly believe parker gummies for wanda is a special case. this is a man who wants complete control over descent inside of his country, while other leaders may want it. she has actually achieved it. and examples are the things that you want is bringing up, are patently on their face ridiculous. longer fact brian, i want to put that point to him as well because we haven't really heard from him because technical difficulties, but jonathan a found so it's a very simple question. folk ago, made insulated from a lot of the criticism within render itself because he's been a success. some people have called him a benevolent dictator. how much does that mean?

he's untouchable. no, but it's touchable. ok. but let me close to that. what this past research history behind a get a psych who was a good puts us up on it's her powder people were killed. so the fact events actually ship post might ship cripples drinking certain people's options. ok. so maybe that up. i'm not trying to be an apologist for poker garbage, but maybe that of shipped him and in trying to prevent a similar tragedy. yes, and i'm trying to, i called pay him to the late the 1st primary self re couple new quite you. i mean few, when i mean, i think dependent, you're not 57, faith, see got polish,

a buck, water, copper buckle job. but she was sick yesterday. right? all to be met. but the cold than we had last. just i want to leave the last point to actually, to you both in call they and in chicago very, very simply. is there any thing of each other's arguments, chicago bryan unless says it's a sham in kigali yolanda, you say that this is actually a fair trial. is there anything you've heard from each other, the might change your minds this beginning with you yolanda. first, look, you know, i do not understand someone who, you know, brian angela says that could go back to the genocide in the telephone in which more than a 1000000 people like anything else, you've got to make more sense. we may please. sorry you cut you off. do you want to

come to brian as well? cuz i did tell me what brian. your thoughts to be clear. i never said anything like that. once again, it is made up by the one the government. my based thought here is, if their system is so fair, why did they not try extradition? the united states has extradited. we're wandering back, that is something i agree with yolanda. and she mentioned that earlier. why did the kidnap the man instead of trying extradition? why are they holding him from his lawyers and not allowing his lawyers to see him? why did they torture him on his arrival? none of these things suggested there was any chance of a fair trial. a fair legal system would have put the evidence to the united states where he was living at the time or to belgium, and to say, please send this man to us. and the us and belgium have cooperated with wonder. in the past. there was never an attempt at cooperation. they jumped straight to kidnapping as humanitarian because he is a critic of

a dictatorship. our thank all our guess, yolanda macola, brian and less and jonathan of a answer. and i want to thank you to watch and you can see the program anytime by this thing, a web site out is there a dot com. and for further discussion, because what facebook phases, facebook dot com forward, slash ha inside story. and you can also join the conversation on twitter. we are at a 5 story from me and ron cohen and the whole team here watching the news news news. news. a little is more distressing for a woman than

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