this speech zonker was shot dead. nicholas hawk al jazeera, the number of greek gods patrolling the border and turkey is going up. it's because of fears. they could be a spike in the number of afghan migrants trying to enter the e. you an additional $250.00 officers will join the $1500.00 strong board of force over the next few months. ah, this is out there are these, you top stories. the you and chief says the world needs to find a way of getting money on assistance into afghanistan to prevent a humanitarian crisis engulfing half of the population. antonio terrace house, praise the efforts of 8 agencies, but says it's not enough already before the tolerable take over the norquist, afghanistan's for the job economy, which has been kept afloat by foreign aid over the past 20 years, suffered from the impact of drought and governance. rec, know, with s,

it's frozen and development a to post. the economy is breaking. don, banks are closing and essential services such as else care have been suspended in many places with careers later came down and says, his country's weapons development is an act of self defense. he says the build up is necessary, so phase whole style policies from the united states and increasing military forces and south korea. the to korea happen in an accelerating alms race with both thought ins, testing increasingly advanced short range ballistic missiles. early election results in a wrong point. a strong outcome for the shia cleric looked outsiders. policy on the prime minister, maria molecules set to have the next largest vote among ship parties. tennessee, as president guy said, has approved a new government nearly 3 months. and so he fired the last one. and the cabinet

will ultimately onset to him rather than the prime minister sides. auctions have divided the country and spoke widespread. protests. anti government purchase is up and demonstrating across bolivia. they say propose new law is a dangerous step towards a police state. the government things it's essential to tackle, elicit earnings, nbc economy in ethiopia, the te gray people's liberation front says government troops have launch coordinated attacks on france. rebels says heavy artillery tanks, fighter jets and drones all being used against them, brazil's present variables and are told journalists that he was bored with questions about the country surpassing 600000 death from cove at 19. brazil has a 2nd highest number of deaths in the world. those, the headline is coming up next inside story. ah

a huge show of support for the european union, thousands of people rally in poland after top court there rejected one of the use founding legal principles. could poland follow the u. k. and leave the block at? how should you leaders respond? this is inside story. ah hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan. one of the european union's core principles is the supremacy of its laws. that means that regulations decided in brussels are applied equally across it's 27 been to states and override national legislation.

poland is challenging. that idea it's top court has ruled a parts of each law and not compatible with the polish constitution. the government in warsaw has welcomed the decision, but e. u leaders are threatening to retaliate on sunday. hundreds of thousands of polish protest as urged their government to commit to keeping poland in the block will bring in our guests in just a moment. but 1st, a report from others here is warri challenz in morsel i, it's large crowds and e. you flags plenty in central war. so and real fears for the country's future, we would like to stay in the european union and we are very afraid that, that we are going to, to the pol exit together with the government of mr. kuchinski and the others here. it's like, you know, a magician who is playing a young magician who is playing, who is fire and he doesn't know how to her,

how to stop so it can explode. so i think is the same here for they don't really know what they did since the constitutional tribunal ruled on thursday. that foundational parts of new law don't apply in poland, opposition, politicians and e. you supporters of been mobilizing the turn out here, reinforces a central point support for the european union in poland is overwhelming, some 75 to 80 percent of the population, not even the ruling. lauren justice party, really questions ponens membership of the european union. so begs a question, why is the government picking such a potentially dangerous fight with brussels? we did invite poland government and supporters in the media to explain their position, but none took the opportunity. so i put the question to adam bordner until being ousted by the same tribunal that ruled against the e. u. he was poland,

human rights ombudsman. it seems to me that government would simply like to accept . okay, we can take the money, we can take all those benefits, but please leave us alone. when it comes to end, the pressure concerning the compliance with and the european ur standards. but it is impossible simply because you cannot be at the same time member of the european union and ignore or basic rules of european integration. the you is thinking about its response. it neither wants to let this slide nor worse than the dispute. we will react, of course, like we're like we have done in the last weeks and miles you have seen that again, we already know false new decisions of the court of justice about as efficient in collin, also possible, a daily financial sanction. the constitution now joins issues like judicial reform, abortion, and l g b t writes connected fronts in a power struggle between poland,

government and the e u. that is getting worse, not better mortgage, helens, how to 0 also or other e u. member states are resisting some of the blocks so called shared values. hungary has backed poland, controversial court ruling prime minister, victor all been has been at odds with the e, you about judicial independence. the european commission is worried about political interference and the legal system of some of its members states. it's also concerned about attacks on journalists and hostility towards activists. defending women's and l g b t q writes 11 member states, including austria and islands, say the e. you should respect the authority to set their own policies on education, child care, and labor laws. ah. so let's bring in our guests for today's discussion from warsaw, we're joined by it. me how vacovich a lawyer and co founder of the hash tag free courts initiative for dresden, rick brooke, not political analyst and professor of political science at stanford university in

berlin and from brussels. peter, clap up, a lawyer, an editor of brussels report. you gentlemen, welcome to you will let me how to start with you is poland heading for the use exit door. are we looking at poll exit here? that is very serious concern, because that is the consequence of the battle that we have for last 6 years. when the unlawfully kept church constitutional court issues, the verdict saying that exactly alisha governments and polish government do not have to accept do not have to execute the no rulings of the european court of justice. and that is the that is the issue because polish government do not have, do not want to have the control from the european union institutions when it comes

to the independence of judiciary, polish government and polish parliament. throughout the last 6 years changed completely the system of judiciary in poland and her from this systemic point of view. it is captured by the government. it is not independent any more. and that's why brussels and that's why luxemburg and the european court of justice is trying to force, preserve ants of the european law in poland. and that is the essence of the conflict owner. cuz we had a few minutes ago in the report. the you says it will react to the courts pronouncement at, but how is this going to be resolved? is it possible that you could say to poland? either you change your constitutional, you simply can't remain a member state. well, in my understanding, poland has already left the legal community. it's not a matter of is it happening one day? under certain conditions,

you consist of different legal communities. it's economic, community, community of principles and cultural values. it's a political community, and most importantly, it's a legal one. and if a country claims that it's no longer legally committed to the obligations and it only wants to use the privileges and the rights, it has practically said good bye to the legal community. the problem with you is that it's not a state. we cannot send the cavalry, and the torture instruments are rather limited because the ones that will be tortured are the ones who have collectively to decide about the use of the torch instruments. and you will always find someone who fears that if i do this now, and if i stick to the rules of the community, i will be next. and that is why all on from hungary and most likely also, sophia, is backing the position of the polish government. it's been described as

unprecedented. a massive escalation of the crisis of the rule of law in poland. what are the implications of this if poland doesn't voluntarily withdraw from the union? what are the chances of it being frozen out legally, from within? well, legally, it's not possible to exclude the member states that the european commission can initiate and under infringement procedure disk. and ultimately culminate in a fine if paul does not pay the find and the commission can sort of take the money from the transfers that the polish states receives from the, the european union. there's also the so called article 7 procedure, which in theory allows member states to, to, to vote. so poland no longer has voting rights. and this is

all of course political. ready science fiction, i think in practice the priority will be to try to find a political solution. and i understand that that's what many beliefs is behind all this. many belief, like the polish guess, says that the policy constitutional court is actually instructed by the polish government and that this is all a ploy for the polish governments to, to increase its it's leverage. now if you look at, of course, the history and then if you look at other member states, you can see that the policy constitutional court in 2005 has already issued a ruling where it declares the fullest constitution to be superior to law. now, this time around, it's all a lot more aggressive. you may say, if you look at the jurisprudence of the german constitutional court since the 1970

s really with this so long a rulings, it has set that the german constitution is ultimately superior to law in a test repeated this stance. however, tolerating so the fact that you law. busy is barrier. now the problem is that the treaty does not contain any content on this. this is all based on a jurisprudence of the top you core to top you court and declares that your law is superior. and so far this has been sort of tolerated, defacto. busy by your member states. and of course at one point when you have the top court of the member states and the government openly challenging this, then then you have a problem. we have it picking up on, on what peter was saying that about this being perhaps of a ploy. how legitimate is poland constitutional court are we talking about

independent judges here, or government appointed ones and, and what does this mean for regular polish judges? and we will consequences to they face if they now implement e, you law over polish law and vice versa. doesn't put them in something of an impossible position. well, it was one common towards my colleague from brussels said actually there is no conflict between the standard that is describing polish constitution and the standard which is described in you law in treaties and the charter, the same standard of independence of judiciary. so there is no conflict, this is only potential political conflict rising by, by our government. but coming back to your question, regarding this, the legitimacy of this constitutional court, this constitutional court is and lawfully, are composed. there are 3 illegal judges sitting in

the panel of these are constitutional court. it is, it was already confirmed by the european court of human rights in july, in excess of florida case. the european court of human rights directly said that these constitutional court with these 3 illegal judges, is not the court in the meaning of european standards. so what will be the consequence of this verdict? i suppose that polish chords, especially this supreme court, will ignore these very addict and polish judges. and polish court will follow the judgments of the european court of justice. ok. but is that going to get them into any potential legal problems there in, in potent that, that is obvious. we have incredible legal cows in

a polish system. and of course such a very big produces and other conflicts and other problems. but at the end of the day, i believe that the polish courts and polish judges which are really brave and 3 independent . and they do not afraid consequences, even if they are really toughly repressed by the government with the disciplinary proceedings with the criminal proceedings. with other former for oppression, and we have more than 150 proceedings against bullies, judges repressions. i mean repressions against bullies, judges, then it's a serious problem. but even though posed judges are brave enough to issue independent very next. and i say said at the end of the day, i believe that that verdict of the constitutional court will be ignored by polish courts and polish guard bullies. judges will follow the european law. busy and the

standards described by the european court of justice photographs we said a few moments ago, this has been described as unprecedented. but, but is it germany is constitutional court challenge the legal order? when judges found that the european central bank overstepped its mandates. so why is poland being criticized in a way that germany wasn't at all double standards of play here? it's not double standards because these are 2 different standards. but the supreme court in germany did was to do what supreme court do with a look at their constitution and see if what the executive is doing is backed by the constitution. so the supreme court in germany warned the government that if we transformed germany into something like a liability union or united states of europe, forum that is not backed by the constitution, we have to adapt the constitution. so this is by no means

a way to say good bye to the european union and germany class, it's independence. it is just to look into what does the quote, because it's in germany say what the polish churches are asked to do politically by the government is to support their confrontational course. ready to create a situation which is very different from worse trading about money, you cannot apply a little bit of the rule of law. it's like pregnancy, either you are pregnant or you're not. if the polish government would apply for membership as a candidate with such a position, it would never ever become a member. now that the, i mean, i'm not really sure what my colleague from boston said before, that the nuclear option is purely political science fiction. if the confrontational course will be as confrontational as it sounds right now, this is the last option. peter has, has the commission gradually overstepped it's, it's ream, it shouldn't sovereignty and differing national priorities be taken into account by,

by the commission? well yes, sentimentally, i think there is a problem of the european union overstepping its powers, but here i would not so much blame the commission. i mean, they are to blame, but ultimately the european court of justice, which has been permitting this, this power overreach for years. i mean a former german president on head. so has been warning for this. many other people and the question is more, how do you solve it? because of course, european court of justice as well we, we respect the competences and i believe that and an interesting creative way to solve it would be to subject the european court of justice to what i would call a subsidiary court. basically yet another court and into governmental court that would have very few cases, but that basically would be responsible to,

to sort out disputes on distribution of competence. so whenever a government thing, so the u. s. overstepping its power here and the european court of justice is permitting. this then only on this cases this new court will be able to overrule. so i think that would make it, let's say a lot more than likely that you would not have this kind of differences in opinion. and it's probably true that the, or the poor government is sort of exploiting this long, lingering constitutional law problem to basically implement it's traditional reforms that i in. i indeed agree that you could raise a lot of question marks. especially if you see sort of situation with the government. so in such a broil with judges, that's a very unhealthy situation and,

and, and we see similar tendencies all across central and eastern europe. sadly, me how, what's your response to that? what, why is the polish government picking such a potentially dangerous fight with you? or are the e treaties as they exist simply unworkable across such a politically diverse block of countries? is it the you that's out of state with, with member states and not the individual nations? you know, 1st of all, my answer is the polish situation regarding the violation of independence of judiciary is black and white is absolutely obvious. so all the verdicts already should by european court of justice and the european court of human rights are saying clearly that polish government violates european law and violates this fundamental standards. one of them is independence of judiciary is the

protection of the rule of law. so it is not the discussion between lawyers, it is not the conflict between the lawyers. even. this is an obvious situation. this is a conflict between law in violation of law. so what to i was the participant as the representative of judge steven supreme court judges in these proceedings in the european court of human, in the european a court in luxembourg. and i could see what was presented by polish government, what was presented by european commission and other countries which participate in these proceedings. and as i said, these conflict, this situation is black and white. and we are, as the democrats protecting european, valid on the, on the white position. and the government is, is violating obviously the rule of law. you wouldn't imagine what is happening in

poland every day with judges who are trying to implement directly european law, which are trying to ask the questions for preliminary rolling to the european court of justice. they are simply repressed already, if it's black and white. me how says hunger is prime minister victor all been signed the declaration welcoming the polish court's ruling and said that the, i quote the i am received at the privacy of each law should only apply in areas where the e u has competence and the framework for this is laid down in the e use founding treaties. constitutional courts and tribunals have every right to examine the scope and limits of new competences. he has a point, does me? this is perfectly right and that's the very nature of the european union. on the one hand, the member states remain the masters of the process and they decide what competence is our european eyes,

to what extent and this is written in that has been treaty at the moment. it has to be, had been the same way, the founding treaties and all the following treaties. that's the one side of the story. the other side of the story is, the moment you european eyes law, this law supersedes over national law or any law. it doesn't matter if it's written in the constitution or if it's a convention or unwritten law, this is the only way to create a legal space in which law is equal to everyone. so no one questions this. and i also don't think that it's the core of the problem that it's a judicial one. the core of the problem is a political one, because kuchinski and the routing party in poland. and on with this ruling party, simply dream of a different political system, which is not in line with what the european union defines as a requirement for membership in the european union. this is the condition of course,

and not the question of if national churches agree with what has been ruled in luxembourg and so on. peter, a recent european commission dossier on respect for rule of law across the block express concerns about several countries. we're not talking just about poland and hungary here, democratic backsliding, as it's been called. what has changed politically since member states side up to the treaties? how dangerous is it for that for the you and what can the commission do about it? well, i think for a fact that there are problems with rural law in several member states, probably in every member state at the end of the day. but definitely in a, probably a very problematic way in certain numbers states and i would there to single out of the new member stated, entered in 2004. the reasons for that that's pro,

perhaps another debate. i don't think we should glorify how the situation was. busy right after the fall of communism, in some cases like in romania, the transition was not all that transition. as you can see, the secret service is continuing to play a role. there are, for example, a similar problems in bulgaria. the situation was much better in poland and hungary . now the 2nd question is, what can you with can other member states do about all that? i think it's very, very hard to easily end up in, in debates with double standards. say people will say, well, why are you going after forums. busy for an officer, how spain is treating catalonia, for example, and maybe to some of my points, i think they should at least not send massive sums of money already got x. that's sorry peter, we were almost out of time. i just want to ask, we have one very quick question. you about 30 seconds. be how, how dangerous is this for, for poland government with you support writing so high?

is there a danger that people just met might get so fed up with the vote them out? well, it is a dangerous situation for poland, control polish government because i, as far as i can see, european institution are a consequence, a consequence. and the european commission, i decided to stop this crisis because it is not only our internal polish issue. it is that it is the problem of the whole europe. if you do not stop this crisis approval of law, you fallen it can be domino effect for the whole europe. the, i'm afraid gentlemen will have to leave it. we're out of time. many thanks. indeed we have ever kabbage already broken up and peter clapper. thank you to for watching, don't forget you can see the program again at any time just by going to the website at al jazeera dot com for further discussion. join us at our facebook page. you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. and you can join the

conversation on twitter all handled at ha, inside story from me, adrian finnegan and whole team here in doha. thanks for being with us. we'll see you again, michael. ah ah . ah al jazeera, with all the cost is the will to dependence on colon daughter and beth is about to get

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