sees 6 percent of trees have been felled around the world? 2020 was meant to be a landmark year in the fight against deforestation a year by which many countries had pledged to haul or completely stop forest loss. but in fact, the plundering has increased here in romania. it's not too late yet. if not now. when nick clock al jazeera copay, the mountains romania ah hello again. the headlines on al jazeera us president joe biden has held what he's described as an historic plan for economic investment and spending. he was announcing a framework agreements for his social spending plan after divisive negotiations within his democratic party. we need to build america from the bottom up in the below, not from the top down with the trickle down economics that's always failed us. i

can't think of a single time in the middle classes done well that the wealthy haven't done very well. they have many times including now and the wealthy, the super wealthy do very well in the middle class. don't do. well, that's why i propose the investments congress is now considering in 2 critical pieces of legislation. positions i ran on as president positions. i announced one i laid out in a joint session congress what my economic agenda was. these are not about left versus right or moderate versus progressive. the u. k. has rejected threats from france to block its boats from french port saying that's a breach of international law. french government says it needs more licenses for its fishermen in u. k. waters or it may impose sanctions. the un security council has issued its 1st statements expressing serious concern about the military take over and through don . it's army leader has sacked at least 6 ambassadors as international pressure

grows against monday's qu, rebels in ethiopia, northern t gray region say the military has carried out another air strike. the government says a target at a site in mckelly used by to brian forces to make on repair weapons. but if he grow people's liberation front spokesman says the attack stroke a civilian resident, argentina for president, my reach mockery has appeared in court in the town of laura to face espionage charges. my cruise accused of ordering the country's intelligence agency to intimidate and spy on the family. the crew members who died on board a submarine in 2017 focused on government is threatening to craft on on a bound group. after 4 police officers were killed at a rally near the hor, members of a headache and a baked party are demanding the release of their leader. the news hours at the top of the hour right here on al jazeera, but up next is inside story. thanks for watching. bye bye.

ah. should western sanctions on entities in zimbabwe be lifted? are you in special envoy says measures imposed by the u. s. u and u. k. are destroying people's lives, but her sanctions to blame for zimbabwe economic troubles. this is inside store. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm homage and room sanctions were placed on

individuals and entities as in bob way in 2003 the u. s. e u and u. k. imposed those sanctions, accusing politicians and entities of human rights abuses and repressing democracy. but in bob way says, the sanctions have led to widespread misery. the un special wrapper tour on unilateral coercive measures agrees, said bob ways government invited alena do hon to visit for 10 days. after speaking with ministers, civil society organizations and businesses to hon called for the sanctions to end. she says they've had an insidious ripple effect on the economy and worse and people's access to health, food education and employment. here's what's in. bob weighs justice minister, had to say at the start of do hands visit when the sanctions removed because they affected every facet for life. so in, in that, so our document that we have when to give them will clearly indicate the effects of

fences or not. so fit the sanctions were imposed during former president robert mc gabe's rule and were extended in february last year the u. s. and e, you cited a lack of progress on political and human rights reforms. at least 59 companies. and more than 140 people including president emerson monongahela had been sanctioned for alleged rights abuses. the u. k. recently imposed punishments on fours and bob, wy and security officials over crackdowns on protesters in 20182019. the western measures include travel restrictions, embargo on sales of military equipment and a freeze on assets. the government says the financial measures are crippling the countries development. but critics blame government mismanagement and corruption. ah. all right, let's bring in our guess from hoary oberg. go to founder of the net gonna legal

consultancy and public governance institute and former zimbabwe and deputy minister of justice and legal affairs. from johannesburg, piers pig who international crisis group, senior consultant for southern africa, and also from herrera e bow. mon dasa, director of the southern africa political economy series trust, thanks to you all for joining us today. we appreciate your time here on inside story. oh barrett, let me start with you. in the past, you've apologized for being part of opposition. party politicians in zimbabwe, who repeatedly called on the west to impose and maintain sanctions on zimbabwe. why did you apologize? yes, i apologize because i felt a intersection and soft reflection and then talk analysis. but i definitely been a very naive to run along with the sanctions under bobbie narrative.

in fact, i think it was one of the most vocal, you know what it is, and then we're passionate that we're getting, you know, for sanctions to be imposed. in fact, i actually thought then that the functions would actually digital and i was like, look at the way but more sanctions strong, our biggest actions. and on further reflection, i didn't realize that no, i think maybe my conceptualization of 2 or district adult so called targeted sanctions was not exactly what, what didn't happen. i think that this is attempts to idealistic conceptualization of this animal called targeted sanctions. because in reality, there's nothing like target sanction. the sanctions again isn't but it actually been all some functions. if anyone who was been targeted is the poor man and woman, woman in the townships, the poor minute appointment in the villages out today in the areas. in other words,

it is millions of the poverty stricken and toiling muscle. we actually get by these instructions. so with the time i didn't realize that admit that i give the, i think the with mistake of my political career associating myself and you've been open the advocacy and passionately doing so for the position of sanctions on my beloved countries. and so after now i've had this sense of guilt, this deep sense of shame at this sense of free, great at this is why i decided to go public and to say to my country and to my cancer. we meant to my, my been that com, but just that i'm sorry, let me just let me take so much. and once again, i just need to regenerate my apologies and to say that apology is top is from the depth of my hat and it's on condition able,

have you been surprised by what you've heard so far from a special envoy? do hon. is this what you had expected to hear from her was quite surprised myself because i think the, the, the 1st impression that more people ahead many people. ready at least the thought this wasn't an invite fee of a government issued simply say. ready what exactly the government wants to hear and indeed the re set up for her appeared to be very. ready state centered and appeared to, to georgia to have left out the opposition as soon as i did. but i was surprised if the statement which was issued as it is correct. i was surprised. that's quite a balanced statement that on the one entity, yes, she acknowledges the, the issue sessions that even though they were targeted to have ad dash

division checked on the, the economy in terms of perception and so forth. but this went on, which is where it was the best went on to highlights that which most of us have been highlighting the need for police really forms the need for ration by implication, especially journalism. as long as i think there's an a. ready well some of us we've been calling for official apology basis. ready that both this the state is beyond redemption, there are no capacity to reform. busy and therefore the physician is better than decimated and. busy therefore, there needs to get together and amber transitional, which is the concept with the space before the next. yes. appears. how much

of an impact will this statement from the special wrapper tour have and how much weight does it carry? well, thanks for the question. thanks into the discussion on this issue. i don't think the state boats will necessarily have that much impact, although it does depend on the extent which the parties are doing the sanctioning and those being sanctioned. i used to sort of constructive what i do think there is a lot to, to see on the site, but to the shoe. a more instructive dialogue about the issues that are on the table . i do think mr. han has raised some extremely issues which sanctioning nations need to look at much more seriously in a chair way as well. not just with respect to these particular met,

the issue of own finance that she emphasizes in statement is an important one. but i do think that there will be some questions about her analysis is kind of a cherry thinking what her with respect to the major causal. busy factors, parent, lack of enjoyment, that ordinary sinback with respect to human rights, integrity and so forth. and well, certainly the inference on over all of those issues, there will be some that will question and will wait to see whatever. but so i just of all the kind of early tips that she's added around the impact of measures that have been put in place. i mean, i was one fundamentally disagree with his reflections that these patients had

such a devastating impact on the ordinary individuals. they certainly have had an impact . i think there's no doubt that question is how do we wake that axis? well, would hope the process that you see would enable a more instruct itala looked forward. busy with a view to say happens precious and relating those denial sheets as to hands. oh barrett, of course peers just now disagreed with your viewpoint on all of this. when it comes to sanctions, the effects that they've had, i want to give you a chance to reply yes. when you look at the effects of legal sanctions about the effects, it's actually been for some of the medical for all our lives. and we know, and we know some of these places where, where, where, where we're in

a been to the villages out to the townships where you, you, your, your visit to the quarter of the port. so you, you, you get an opportunity to, to see for yourself and title, appreciate from 1st and 0, one on one position to see that this is what functions of that this emission of what was a, b, one, a southern africa, most sophisticated industrial base that independent dimension each. now just that photo shape. ok, we have it, people talk of corruption. but you should also look at the symbiotic relationship. didn't sanction the garage that actually i, i believe that actually, you know, sanctioned by one of the main diamonds of corruption. and we're, we're saying at the end of the day, when we look at the, the timing of the function, it's really nothing to do so none of logan's, of human rights in the roof law. it had everything to do with the lender program, which is beginning then is on february of 2000. zimbabwe is actually being punished

for bucking one on something that was handled. i'm sure the former go to no power in the middle, is the post with a bit to say this little country in southern africa. how did they do that? chicken land from about 40045025000 white commercial commerce just and then like just a crook and other guys. and it does make the economist crim and boy, they economy did scream. hey, bo, special envoy, do hon says the unilateral sanctions and the over compliance with the measures in their complexity had exacerbated preexisting economic conditions, especially for those living in poverty, women, children, and the elderly, among others. do you agree with that assessment? very difficult. the to, to qualify that qualify, that's the extent which essentially is or it is measures will have that effect. i

think the and one does want to be turned into the debate such as could we have tried to provoke, of, of uprise debates between those who think section of that bad and those with the exceptions are good. i want to understand the context of function of the measures and now on to say that not and my view is 20th of these, so called midges. they have not achieved the po for we still put in place. they become more token my view that's different from the mandatory you inspection that they've seen before in producer and in other countries. and secondly, they have not had the they've punished these their so called targeted individuals. ready when the culture is easily by the way. ready and very, very. ready far more prosperous on. ready the. ready one with the center of

indigent and therefore for me, the issue of the debatable soldiers. but what's the base friendly on whether they. ready are at shipping the purpose, which is to improve, they adore to, to interest all, don't want to say force. but this was political and economic reforms. they have not achieved the country. we have gone down live with the economy. and political terms with west was a government in place. so nothing of income, so there's need to change the day and move and that's way welcome. the envoys reference to structured data structure dialogue for me, talk to data to look at just putting us in our statement on the decision of how to

do it is time down and look for a way forward as through a patient of national regional and international cooperation to a question that the way the need to do after that that's the peers you heard you were there talk about how the rep, special opportunities calling for a structured dialogue. is that something you think can happen at this point? well no, i was watching the yo a listen to the song. yeah. spokesman today or he was talking about this is her endorsement. so it looks like to started off process, which is a controversial process that has been introduced by president monarch or

a does not have mains pre session. nbc alliance. i doodle saying that what is being referred to is the process. and i do think it is kind of dialogue ah, that sir mendoza is referring to one but also move beyond find or at the something special said move beyond and abandoned the kind of rhetoric that section is what we continue to see from some players here to see what advantage it seems very unlikely in the run up to the electron in the next 18 months or so that we're going to see a real commitment from certain actors or to that kind of dialogue. oh barry from your point of view, um, are there conditions in place right now in zimbabwe, whereby there could be a framework developed for some kind of national dialogue or constructive dialogue

going forward? oh yes. oh yes. you know, the main challenge, i think that so some of our colleagues colleagues in zimbabwe is this issue of saying it's the dialogue is not like, you know, a g van or literally, you know, conducted by foreign power or what i mean because then it's just not to legitimate that i just say now we want to, to initiate dialogue with the african union to measure the dialogue. they've even been holes for the, for the matter. missions the down. and so for just why was the looking at them, but you know, one of them because highest a see, we have put them into human capital within the country is a human capital and also human capital in the dash for some of the

most q people across whatever, a personal professional divide you may want to see, we have smokers are capable of doing that. so i think the moment that people didn't say for as long as the dialogue maybe you said in one me and does not include some for an interest and you know what an interest i was in, in the opposition for more than 20 years of my life and i know how the position i know the hand of the for and, and it takes about it because i was there, i was there right in that mix. i was in the mission. i was going to call me to them to see. so i know what i'm talking about, so dialogue is really happening is the bullet process in zimbabwe. and i believe that it is one of the muster, but sure to get one of the most actually only most of the folks. so why are the people that interested in all that, to say no, we want to bilateral dialogue between prison and that in ourselves, which doesn't include all other class nights simply on it. and it won't happen. it's not going to happen. why goes on the,

to sing with everybody the so called big political players in the so called what political plans and paula, despite the effort, well, that kind of balance. so paula disease, he bought, you wrote a piece in which you said the vein, expectations that the november 2017, who would redeems and bob way from the international isolation under this. and bob way is open for business mantra have all but gone up in smoke. why is that? theresa grace clear? where brother over the group there are to those those words. i mean, i'm shocked that he thinks pollard is away for it was absolutely shocked in never knows that all it is is a cul de sac queen or way or. i mean, the judge was about was know that if he doesn't approach the secondly, i think that the the, the,

the way forward is the kind of dialogue which begins, there's been into petition of the old data. is that one which is the most blatantly at failure, but i believe data again with data but begin with the recognition or the restoration. of course. as soon as we have about the 1010 of the move to the better. that's the night for a dialogue that takes us ford edge. we have all the information i situation right through from the dentist. one could jolts to the lab because the house agreement, we believe that we need to attend that kind of situation again with the help of the region. and they have been rated as dated. the article that you have stated that

the international, effective with both federal detention. ready on. ready need to have a state and ships to do some kind of to engage with the cross the device to engage, discuss, load genuine data that begins earlier with a structured session. i wonder whether when the lady referred to a subject that was coaching the document we did in 2016 wrong before the the the cool. when we saw the cook, i mean we were stage where we're going into it and to think about being suddenly with us, i think that it's elusive to simply say appears from your perspective will the special operators work to be able to enable

a broader fact based engagement on the issues that she has been investigating but it should be, i mean i think this is so really is the next step. it's unfortunate that we're only going to see a final report in september next year. but i think there's a great deal of interest that this is an issue that requires attention. there is a real opportunity in us to have that, that based on that goes beyond the posturing. see a continuing or even in the face of state that she has my cherry of issues from that side of the question, as i said earlier, is whether the key parties are prepared to come to the table. so it's not as if there aren't opportunities to space and either either internally or between the parties instituting sanctions and those of the receiving it. there is lot change

you to do this list. see really now how the actors on to this or from special raptor, but i do think she also has a responsibility. see how best she said the type that and to catalyze, ah, the discussion because what i see on the table at the moment from her is provoked provocations which are a book publications. but people will need to see what the evidence is in order to enable and atlas appears. let me just follow up with you real quick and we only have about a moment left on. what do you foresee happening when the special envoy presents her final report? next year. well, you know, i mean the table and again, i hope that's another rejection. bear in mind that we like to still have these measures that are going to another opportunity to troy this discussion board. and

it seems to me that external actors from the region. so role in enabling that session, but it requires so much. oh really? and that's a level of honesty and the move away from clustering. and the morning session i think is the way to go. but unfortunately, i think as we see the broader issues around the key parties are not willing to go that way. now, right, we run out of time. we're going to have to leave the conversation or thanks so much, all our guests over good to peers, p go and evil mendoza. and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com, and for further discussion, go to our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha, inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. we're at a j inside story, and then how much of room the whole team here, bye for now?

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a dispute about maritime writes. you.