and consult import us. the campaign to return the benign bronzes and thousands of other artifacts looted during the center is long colonization of africa, has taken a long time. campaigners hoped the events of the united kingdom and france this week will begin a process that could see the return of most of africa, st. paul in historic and cultural artifacts. ahmed edris al jazeera, a butcher. ah, there's those zera, and these are the top stories. he was present, joe biden, doesn't appear to have the full support of his democratic party for his $1.00 trillion dollar spending program. a key democratic group is saying that they won't vote on the infrastructure bill without the build back. better acts full of els. in washing d. c. any explains why progressive democrats are holding else. this is a separate bill could be separate, but at the same time it's kind of linked to make the 2 of them live in parallel.

i'll see the infrastructure bill is a bipartisan bill. so this is joe biden doing what he said he would do. join the presidential campaign, reaching out to republican saying, let's work together. let's make stuff happen together. and he's got the buy in of republican, so it looked like it was going to be a slam dunk. but now there are members of the democrats who are say, well, hang on a 2nd. we're going to hold off passing this bill because we want this built to be voted on at the same time as the build back build back better plan. now the reason they're doing this is this is an issue of trust. they think that they might vote this infrastructure bill in and then those who are holding out on the build back better plan might say, actually thanks for that. but you know what, we're not going to put this through. so essentially a game of trust and the u. k, as some of the french ambassador, amid a deep thing ro, over post briggs at fishing, writes. it comes out after a french authorities seized a british trula operating infringed territory waters. the united states in the u. n . are increasing at the price on saddam's military as confrontations between

security forces. and protesters continue in cartoon. the un security council called for a restoration of a civilian that government. and rebels in ethiopia as t gray region say at least 10 people including 3 children, have been killed and another government asked right. the theo pin army says it targeted a facility used by the t great people's liberation front in the regional capital mccaleb, but a spokesperson for the rebels that says a civilian residence was hit. an argentina's former president murray chew mockery has appeared in court to face espionage charges, but he is accused of holding intelligence agencies despite the families of crew members of a summary. the sank 4 years ago. the case has been suspended due to the presence obligation to hold military secrets. facebook changed its name while the social media site will keep the name. the parent company is now called meta chief executive mark zuckerberg says it replaced reflects the match of us on a future world with formal online interaction. those the headlines news continues head on out 0 after inside story.

ah, should western sanctions on entities in zimbabwe be lifted? a you in special envoy says measures imposed by the u. s. u and u. k. are destroying people's lives, but are sanctions to blame for zimbabwe economic troubles. this is inside store. ah

hello and welcome to the program. i'm hammer, jim drum sanctions were placed on individuals and entities as in bob way in 2003. the u. s. e u and u. k. imposed those sanctions, accusing politicians and entities of human rights abuses and repressing democracy. but in bob way says the sanctions have led to widespread misery. the un special wrapper tour on unilateral coercive measures agrees zimbabwe government invited alena do hon to visit for 10 days. after speaking with ministers, civil society organizations and businesses to hon called for the sanctions to end. she says they've had an insidious ripple effect on the economy and worsened people's access to health, food education and employment. here's what's in. bob weighs justice minister, had to say at the start of do hands visit when the sanctions removed because they affected every facet for life. so in, in that, so our document that we are going to give them will clearly indicate the effects of

senses or not. so fit the sanctions were imposed during former president robert from gabe's rule and were extended in february last year. the u. s. and e, you cited a lack of progress on political and human rights reforms. at least 59 companies. and more than 140 people including president emerson monongahela had been sanctioned for alleged rights abuses. the u. k. recently imposed punishments on fours and bob, wy and security officials over crackdowns on protesters in 20182019. the western measures include travel restrictions, embargo on sales of military equipment and a freeze on assets. the government says the financial measures are crippling the countries development. but critics blame government mismanagement and corruption. ah. all right,

let's bring our guess from hoary over due to the founder of the net gonna legal consultancy and public governance institute and former zimbabwe and deputy minister of justice and legal affairs from johannesburg, piers pig who international crisis group, senior consultant for southern africa. and also from herrera e, blue mon, dasa, director of the southern africa political economy series trust, thanks to you all for joining us today. we appreciate your time here on inside story. oh barry, let me start with you in the past, you've apologized for being part of opposition. party politicians in zimbabwe, who repeatedly called on the west to impose and maintain sanctions on zimbabwe. why did you apologize? yes, i heard so apologize because i felt a intersection and soft reflection and then talk analysis. but i definitely been

a very naive to run along with the sanctions on the moment. additive, in fact i think was one of the most vocal, you know what it is and then we're passionate that we're getting, you know, for sanctions to be imposed. in fact, i actually thought then that the function to actually to digital and i was like, look at the way but more sanctions strong, our biggest actions. and on further reflection, i didn't realize that no, i think maybe my conceptualization of 2 or district at the so called targeted sanctions was not exactly what, what didn't happen. i think that this is attempts to idealistic conceptualization of this animal called targeted sanctions. because in reality, there's nothing like target sanction. the sanctions again isn't but it actually been all some functions. if anyone who was been targeted is the poor man and woman,

woman in the townships, the poor minute appointment in the villages out today in the areas. in other ways, it is millions of the district and, and toiling massive of them, but we actually get by these instructions. so with the time i didn't realize that admit that i give the, i think the with mistake of my political career associating myself. and you've been open the advocacy and passionately doing so for the position of sanctions on my beloved countries in. so after now i've to this keep sense of guilt, this deep sense or shame at this sense of free, great at this is why i decided to go public and to say, to my country, men, to my country, women, to make my been com. but just that, i'm sorry, let me get, let me take so much and one's again. now just to reiterate my apology, and to say that apology is top is from the depth of my hat. and it's on condition

able. have you been surprised by what you've heard so far from a special envoy? do hon. is this what you had expected to hear from her? was quite surprised. of course, i think the, the, the 1st impression that more people ahead many people. ready at least the thought this was in a government issued simply say. ready what exactly the government wants to hear and indeed the jewelry set up for her appeared to be. ringback very. ready state centered and appeared to, to, to, to have left out the position as soon as i did. but i was surprised if the statement which was issued as it is correct. i was surprised. that's quite a balanced statement that on the one entity, yes, she acknowledges the,

the issue section that even though there were targeted to have ad dash depreciating effect on the, the economy in terms of perception and so forth. but this went on, which is why i was the best, went on to highlights that wish most of our they've been highlighting the need for police really forms the need for 10 ration by implication. that special question isn't as long as i think that there's an a. ready well some of us we've been calling for official apology basis. ready that both this the state is beyond redemption. there no capacity to reform. busy and therefore, and the physician is better than disseminated and therefore the needs to get together and amber transitional,

which is the country within the space before the next, yes, appears. how much of an impact will this statement from the special wrapper to your have and how much weight does it carry? well, thanks for the question. thanks built into the discussion on most issue. i don't think the state boats will necessarily have that much impact, although it does depend on the extent which the parties are doing the sanctioning and those being sanctioned. i used to sort of constructive what i do think there is a lot to, to see from the site to the shoe, a more instructive dialogue about the issues that are on the table. i do think mr. han has raised some extremely issues with sanctioning nations, need to look at much more seriously nocera way as well. not just with respect to

these particular met, the issue of own finance that she emphasizes in statement is an important one. but i do think that there will be some questions about her analysis is kind of a cherry thinking what her with respect to the major causal. busy factors, parent, lack of enjoyment on reason, back with, with respect to human rights, integrity and so forth. and, well, certainly be in for a little over all of those issues. there will be some that will question and we'll wait to see whatever. but so i just took all the kind of early tips that she's added around the impact all measures that have been put in place. i

mean, i was one fundamentally disagree with his reflections that these patients had such a devastating impact on the ordinary individuals. they certainly have had an impact . i think there's no doubt that question is how do we wait that one would hope that the process that we've seen would enable a more constructive dialogue or. busy with a view to say happens and relating those denial. mr. hunts. oh barrett, of course peers just now disagreed with your viewpoint on all of this when it comes to sanctions, the effects that they've had. i want to give you a chance to reply yes. when you look at the effects of the legal sanctions about the effects, it's actually been for some of the medical for all our lives. and

we know and we know some of these places where where, where, where it. ready is the people that have been to the villages out to the townships where you, you, you visited the course of the poor. so you, you, you get opportunity to, to see for yourself. and i totally appreciate from 1st on all one on one position to see that this is what functions of this emission of what was a, b one, a southern africa, most sophisticated industrial base that independent dimension each. now just that photo shape. ok. we have it, people talk of corruption, but you should also look at the symbiotic relationship between sanctions and actually i, i believe that actually, you know, sanctioned by one of the main diamonds of corruption in the book. and we're, we're saying at the end of the day, when we look at the, the timing of the function, it's really nothing to do so none of logan's, of human rights in the rule of law. it has everything to do with that emotional

lender program, which is beginning then on february of 2000. zimbabwe is actually being punished for bucking one on something that was handled. i'm sure the format go to no power in the middle is supposed to take in a bit to say this little country in southern africa. how did they do that? checking land from about 400445025000. why commission promised that was just unthinkable. and then like, just a crook and other guys and it does make the economist crim and boy, they economy did scream. hey, bo, special envoy, do hon says the unilateral sanctions and the over compliance with the measures in their complexity had exacerbated preexisting economic conditions, especially for those living in poverty, women, children, and the elderly, among others. do you agree with that assessment? very difficult. the to, to qualify that to qualify that extent which sections or tabs as measures

will have that effect. i think the and one does want to be turning into the debate such as quickly as tried to provoke, of, of. busy the debates between those who think section of the bad and the social good . i want to understand the context of function of the measures. and i'll say that not in my view, the 20th of these so called midges. they have not achieved the po for, we still put it in place. they become more token that's different from the mandatory you in a section that they've seen before in producer and in other countries. secondly, they have not had the, they look punished. these, their so called cabinet is individuals when the country these people way. ready and

very, very far more prosperous. ready one. ready with the sense of indigent and therefore for me, the issue of the debatable soldiers. but what's the base friendly on whether they. ready achieved the purpose, which is to improve, they adore to, to influenced all i want to say force. but this was political and economic reforms. they have not achieved that. the country. we have gone down live into the economy. and political west was a government in place. so nothing improved, so there's need to change the paradigm and move and that's way welcome. the envoys reference to the structured data structure dialogue for me, touch it data that just putting us in our statement on the decision about it. it is

time down and look for a way forward as through a patient of national, regional and international cooperation to wish that the ways in dire need of a recent sitting after that that's the best of the peers . you heard there talk about how the rep, special repertoire is calling for a structured dialogue. is that something you think can happen at this point? well, no, i was watching the yo a listen to the song. yeah. spokesman today sir, who was talking about this is her endorsement. so it looks like to started off process, which is

a controversial process that has been introduced by the president man and doug or does not have mains pre session nbc alliance. i doodle saying that what is being referred to is ala process and i do think it is kind of ah, 3rd sir mendoza is referring to one but also move beyond find or at the something special said news beyond her and abandoned the kind of rhetoric sections is what we continue to see from some players here to see what advantage it seems very unlikely in the run up an electron in the next 18 months or so that we're going to see a real commitment from certain actors or to that kind of dialogue. oh barry from your point of view, um, are there conditions in place right now in zimbabwe,

whereby there could be a framework developed for some kind of national dialogue or constructive dialogue going forward? oh yes. oh yes. you know, the main challenge, i think that so some of our colleagues colleagues have had in zimbabwe is this issue of saying it's the dialogue. he's not like, you know, a g van olive study, you know, conducted by foreign powers. what i mean to be just then it's just not to legitimate that i just say now we want to to initial dialogue with the african union to mission the dialogue. they've even been holes for the, for the matter mission. this is the down. and so for just why was the looking at some, but you know, one of us because highest a see we have put them into human capital within the country is a human capital and also human capital in the dash for some of the

most q people across whatever, a personal professional divide you may want to see, we have smokers are capable of doing that. so i think the moment that people didn't say, oh, for as long as the dialogue maybe you said in one me and does not include some for an interest and you know what an interest i was in, in the opposition for more than 20 years of my life and i know how the position, i know the hand of the for a certain point it takes about it because i was there, i was there right in that mix. i was in the national spending for me to them to see . so i know what i'm talking about. so dialogue is really happening. there is the bullet process in zimbabwe, and i believe that it is one of the muster, but sure to get one of the most actually only most of the folks. so why are the people that interested in call it to say no, we want to bilateral dialogue between prison and that well in ourselves, which doesn't include all other players nights simply on it. and what happened is

not going to happen. why go on to chic, simpler, everybody, the so called big political players and the so called smokeless go plans and paula does right effort. well, that kind of balance. so paula disease, he bought, you wrote a piece in which you said the vein, expectations that the november 2017 qu, would redeems and bob way from the international isolation under this in bob way is open for business mantra have all but gone up in smoke, why is that? theresa press clear. where brother over the group. i took those, those words. i mean, i'm shocked that he thinks pollard is a way forward, was not actually shocked. you know, never knows that call it is. is a cul de sac cleaner way. and i mean the judge was about was know that if he doesn't i'm surprised that secondly, i think that the the,

the, the way forward is the kind of dialogue which begins there's been into petitions of . ringback the old data is above that one, which is the most blatantly at failure. but i believe data genuine data begin with the recognition or the restoration. of course, it's about the $10.10 of the move to the better. that's the bottom line for a dialogue that takes us ford edge. we have all the information i situation right through from just one quick jolts to the lead to house agreement. we believe that we need to attend that kind of situation again with the

help of the region and they help the international region. ready i've stated the article that you have stated that's the international effective both. ready on. ready need to have a started and ships to give some kind of to engage with the bug with the cross the device to engage, discuss genuine data that begins earlier with a structured session. i wonder whether when this lady to refer to a subject that was coaching the document we did in 2016 long before the the the cool. when we saw the cook, i mean when we were stage where we are going into it and to think about being suddenly with us, i think that it's dilution. this is appears from your perspective will the special

or operators work be able to in able a broader fact based engagement on the issues that she's been investigating. but it shouldn't be. i mean, i think this is so revenues. the next step is unfortunate that we're only going to see a final report in september next year. but i think there's a great deal of interest that this is an issue that requires attention. there is a real opportunity and us to have that discussion that goes beyond the posturing, see a continuing or even in the face, all state that she has made cherry issues from that side of the question, as i said earlier, is whether the key parties are prepared to come to the table, so it's not as if there aren't opportunities and spaces and either either internally or between the parties instituting sanctions and those of the receiving

it. there is lot change you to do this list. see really now how the actors on to this or from the special raptor. but i do think she also has a responsibility. see how best she said the type that and to catalyze, ah, the discussion because what i see on the table at the moment from her is provoked provocations which are a book engines. but people will need to see what the evidence is in order to enable and analyze appears. let me just follow up with you real quick and we only have about a moment left on. what do you foresee happening when the special envoy presents her final report? next year. well, you know, i mean the table and again, i hope that's another rejection. bear in mind that we like to still have these measures that are going to another opportunity to troy this discussion board. and

it seems to me that external actors from the region role in enabling that session, but it requires so much. oh really? and that's a level of honesty and the move away from clustering. and the more discussion i think is the way to go. but unfortunately, i think as we see the broader issues around the key parties are not willing to go that way. now, right, we run out of time. we're going to have to leave the conversation or thanks so much, all our guests over good to peers, p go and evil mendoza. and thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha, inside story. you can also during the conversation on twitter, we're at a j inside story. and them how much room the whole team here,

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we live in without the international aid. what do you think is going to happen? the afghan economy? counting the coast on al jazeera, the u. s. is always of interest to people around the world, people peer and to walk this on here. now does it is very good. they're bringing the news to the world from here. ah, i'm on caught in tow the top stories on our desert. you as president joe biden doesn't appear to have the full support of his democratic party for his $1.00 trillion dollar spending program. a key group, a saying they will not vote on the infrastructure bill without the build back better act biden has taken the rest step of meeting with senators at the capital to urge them to back. the spending package full of l has more from washington dc. we

are hurtling towards mid terms and are still year away, but that's nothing in politics. and what this does is if you can get this pass now .