quincy and hor, deletion, understanding the link between public ecology and public health in our political and your real graphic class is extremely important. and that is the mean problem that makes our a toxic ariba floating up and a forest disappear. study say air pollution, cost billions of dollars every year, and is one of the leading causes of death in the city. millions of people are struggling while the government tries to find a solution. pardon him at that, al jazeera, you deli, ah. the headlines on al jazeera sedans army chief has appointed a new governing council. members of the main opposition coalition are not included, bloss man, general object fatah had, but han dissolved the transitional government and detain civilian leaders in a military take over are so sorry. are, has more from cartoon this picture is very much cleared that so fog negotiations

between all me and up the lam duke left moments how feel terribly so this will have complications because, ah, the cities are demanding. abdulla ham look to be to be back. and the international community is putting pressure over at will hand to a to, to, to, to restore a dead that the student government, and also to pick up the law humble. hum, duke. as the prime minister of a new government in, in the concert, poland are sending more troops to its border with belarus, accusing its neighbour of encouraging migrants on refugees to enter its territory. the european union's preparing new sanctions against by the ruse. president alexander lucas jenko says he is prepared to retaliate by cutting off gas supplies to the you. far right. supporters have rallied in poland capital. they gathered for the countries independent thing, despite court orders banning the events. poland, nationals, government supports the march, un secretary general,

and tony goods harris. as warning the pledges made at the cop $26.00 summit must be implemented. he welcomes that agreement by the us and china to increase cooperation . know what he said, that the goal of limiting global warming is on life support. office on foreign ministers, warning that i've gone to star is on the brink of humanitarian catastrophe. he's hell talks in islamic with senior diplomats from the us, china, russia, and of ghana, son to discuss the situation since the taliban take over a place 26 people have been killed by floods, landslides, insur, lanka, road on homes across the country are inundated, after more than a week of heavy rain. more than 200000 people have been affected. the news hour is at the top of the hour right here on al jazeera after inside story, but by news

news. news. a us delegation visit taiwan a week after a tour of a you politicians triggered fury in china was behind the increasing interest from the west. and how far will they go to defend the island? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the show. i'm sammy, a than taiwan status is a politically sensitive issue. the island off the coast of china has its own president, democratically elected government and the strong economy. but beijing regard it as

a breakaway province, that must be reunited with the mainland by force if necessary. it's condemned the u . s. and e. u for the calls provocative visit to the island. a u. s. congressional delegation landed in ty pay on tuesday. it follows the 1st official tool from e u legislators last week, who praised tiwana as an ally for democracy and freedom. china's foreign affairs ministry accuse the u. s. and u of collaborating with taiwanese independence forces president, she aging ping warned against what he calls a return to cold war era. divisions. me to attempt to draw audiological lines on geopolitical grounds. will fail. the asia pacific shouldn't relapse into the division of the cold war era. only 15 countries recognize taiwan as an independent nation, the u. s. and the u. a not among them. however, they do maintain

a relationship of strategic can big unity. the u. s. has a military presence in taiwan. tensions between beijing and taiwan. around the rise, china's air force sent a record number of war planes into the islands a defense zone last month. china is the use largest trading partner. taiwan economy remains heavily dependent on china. taiwan is one of the world's biggest technology producers. for example, it supplies many components for the latest smart phones the. let's bring our guests into the show we have joining us from ty pay, brian hue, writer, and founder of new blue magazine. in both hand in south korea, robert kelly, professor of political science and diplomacy. at present national university, and in beijing, victor gout chair, professor at su chow university. welcome to all i could stop haps this time with

victor. what message is being sent? do you think to china by the congressional visit to taiwan? well, 1st of all, this congressional visit to the, or to taiwan i. v. a u. s. members of congress is of serious violation of the one china policy and the china will a take measures accordingly. and china has already announced our series of sanctions against free. most seniors are members, will promote power independence. and i think all these members of congress from the united states will be put on the sanction list, meaning they will be banned from entering channels, mainland channels, hong kong challenge, macau, and they and their family members will be banned from doing any business with china's mainland hong kong and macau, i think this sends a very strong message that china does not tolerate any such provocation. any

attempt to bo, promote one china, one, taiwan or cohen independence. this is a line drawn in the sand and no political force in k, a one will ever be successful in achieving power independence. why? because history does not allow that. and the 1400000000 chinese people does not allow that at that number of chinese people include the majority of the 23000000 people on taiwan. this is the reality. i hope u. s. politicians will be realistic and pragmatic. they shall not bet on highway independence at all. victory is the u. s. in china heading towards the cold war. no, i don't think so. why? because the cold war is against the fundamental interest of the united states. it is against our fundamental interest of china. it is against that world of peace and development. all right, that morning off cold war. let me bring in robin. if i may, there not ask the same question. do you think it looks like i mean this talk of

sanctions band less military drills. promises to stand by taiwan sound like a cold or shaping up to you? yeah, it does. i think if you listen to dr. gough, it sounds an awful lot like you're talking about sanctioning members of congress right in the united states has done that kind of stuff to. there's been a big shift in the american opinion, and i asked 4 or 5 years about engagement. china, you know, there's a growing regret that the united states facilitated china's entrance into the retail. i think that's the reasons why she was there up taken language about taiwan . taiwan is increasingly becoming the focal point of sino american competition along with the south, tennessee. and yeah, i think we're sort of sliding there. i don't know. it's going to be as a disaster. yeah, i mean, i was going to say, is it different this time a mean might be easy to draw the cold war parallels, but the economies of the, of the u. s. and china or western countries in general and china much more into

dependent rights than china. as much wealthier, more wealthy than the soviet union was. that's right. and that's me. that's a couple things. first of all, time is greater. wealth means that it really does trends. cold work, laughter. great. you're longer, right. i mean, the soviet, already losing the cold war by the 1970 s, because they simply couldn't afford the military spending to keep up with, with nato and the countries around it. china got a much greater capacity that actually slug this out and drag on for decade on the other hand. so the good news is because the 2 r e drama can't reply and both have a business community that would strongly like to avoid a cold war. right. in the u. s, i can't speak too much, but on the, on the us end of it, you know, the business community has been promoting investment in china for a long time, and u. s. investment or the u. s. business community has sort of pushed back on on hawkish voices in washington, dc. and the think tanks, you know, again, those want to take a harder line on china. now you have business minute is actually softened a lot and it's not nearly as bullets in china is. or there been a lot of issues with piracy and intellectual property and things like that in china

. so i don't think that you are a business community sort of deterring the hawks anymore and increasing in the hawks in the us are dominating the conversation. you saw that another book by then trunk, right. there is increasingly a bipartisan sort of agreement that the china is what a strategic competitor. i suppose. i don't want to st. enemy. i don't think we're there yet. but a strategic competitor. i think most americans would agree with that is the view from ty pay. brian, why do you think west and interest has increased in taiwan lately? we've had not only this visit from and of congress, but we also recently had visits from european officials to ty pay. yeah, so we just saw the question of a new cold war, for example, whether this framework does apply to the present. and i think what is different between the new cold war and the old or the original cold war is not china and i cannot frantic find. and i want is a place that it's neatly between the 2. i want manufactured more than half conductors around. i was water and so isn't fighting on this becomes

a flash point regarding us in china, not only are all in regarding the trade interest as well. and so for example, going to some reports on he's not a factor any can up or even in the cruise missiles from heiner pointed out i want and i think this is illustrative of the dilemma that i want that i want is very intertwined economically, which china is relying on the us curity. there is not a majority of counties that are in support of china poll after poll over. that's the question that this is become a point image for us and china are battling out for interest and so on is serving as a box the arena in which they are over there. let's take some of those points back to vic to then in beijing. victor, do you think china's increasing ability to project its, its power militarily, whether it's over taiwan, whether it's in the south china sea, to project its economy and economic influence through 5 g technology to allegedly cyber security breaches. do you think all of that is fueling concern in the west?

now 1st of all, china is a big power in the world. and china does need a national defense capabilities commensurate to it's increasing economic are reached. this is a fact. second point, china's national defense is mostly for domestic defense as well as liberating taiwan if we have to all peaceful. ready unification with taiwan, preferably and china's military defense is designed to protect china's legitimate interest in the far corners in the world. this is the nature of china's national defense. china does not want to invade any other country or take over any other countries land, because this is not only against china's own interest, it is against the principle of peace and peaceful coexistence with all the other countries in the world. therefore,

i think there are people who are raising false alarms about about china's economic development or the steady development of its defense capabilities. china's defense capabilities are very large, is on the par with the united states. so very large extent and anyone will provide a victor wanna talk about simply defensive posture in july, we had that coordinated us in european condemnation of china for what they saw as hacking. if you talk about hacking, read the edward snowden, his book, or writings. and you will know who is that pop hacker in the world today. don't mention to me about china doing hacking, where you ignore what edward snowden has written, very eloquently about who is the king of hacking in the world of today. ok, let's take that point to robert's is the west. increasingly viewing china as an adversary

on political, economic, and security levels, because china is gaining an ability to do back to old power what they've been had the monopoly on doing power selection. sure. and yeah, yeah, i, i think that's pretty, pretty clear also, right. i mean, china as a soccer got pointed out, china is developing a full spectrum of military insecurity presence, which means not just are traditional force projection across water and air, which of course, i want big concern. but that also means, like cyberspace under c outer space will also become an issue. the us in china wall will certainly try to militarize lower earth orbit in the next 30 or 40 years. i would not be surprised at that at all. right, i mean that's, that's what happened during the 1st go over to writing the cold war sort of very quickly in the 1950. so spread out into a 3rd world and sort of got all mixed up and inter anti colonial insurgencies and stuff like that and you'll be at nom and the rest of it. and so i would not be

surprised if the larger political competition between if you were to spill in all kinds of different directions, right. i mean, i think the good news is that i doubt that would be sort of sustain major land conflicts like there were during the 1st cold war. things like i can stand and create out that will happen again in part because most of the constant conversation between the us and china is on china's maritime perimeter. right? which stick in the water? so that's good because that means you shouldn't actually have some major land conflict, but again, i think up there on the other side, that's sort of good news. on the other side, you know, the bad news, i suppose for the americans to be well, is that china is much wealthier and can expanded all these domains and actually count to the americans again as dr. dimension, right. americans are into hacking to and i'm sure you know, i don't know too much about this, but i'm pretty sure that the american chinese are both trying to hack each other. i don't think anybody would be surprised at that, but i'm kind of caught in the middle of the picture. it's emerging from the discussion is that there is a much bigger political, global power gain going on between the west and china. taiwan is in the middle.

let's take that question to tie, pay and ask brian then does this mean from the time when these perspective do they see that the west is actually invested in taiwan in taiwan independence, per se. all simply invested in taiwan as a called to play off against china. the question is something that i want has struggled with for decades. how long has a decades of thousands, a missile punch i will point to mr. nasa, there's around $600.00 eric eric identification in the past year, which is october 1st and october 5th. the 5 days after sunny day there was 50, and so these chinese spread director that i want to increase the people are not in panic because of the fact that you see it's a same fine facing policy is strategic ambiguity. what the american position is on power on is clear. you have the strength of relation with taiwan as you see under trump and under bided over at the end. the day there is not

a commitment to back. but at the same time, what needs be kept clear is that how many is, are not pushing for independence in the fact that most people are fully paid for the status quo. they realize that pushing for independence to lead to a loss of american support. but i want to try to do this after the war. most ponies just wants to be left alone by china, and that's why they have stuck to the magic you looking for. it's not a maintaining what is this now? the factor independence but not there's your independent over aging is increased and the red line is changing with a red line. and i mean it's increasing respiratory. i want even though the preference is remaining, even though it's high ministration itself. culture is framed as percent per dependent, right? victor in beijing is china losing the ability to discourage closer relations with taiwan. by signaling you know that there'll be an economic cost in the past. it

seems that that made western countries a lot more cautious. but lately we've had, i think in august the lithuanians, authorizing the opening of a taiwan representative office, the president of the check senate visiting taiwan in september, the u. delegation that visited recently, and now this congressional visit. well, 1st of all, you talked of our several eastern european countries and i want to remind you that china already asked that country the records are basil to china if they continue on to the wrong path of provoking china in violation of the one china policy chair that probably will sever it's the pro, by the relations with that particular country. let me say the record halfway and my question will have, does that mean china's ability tire time, fluence, other countries policies towards taiwan? is my question. yeah. the, the, the answer is the inference is all the impact to be very clear. there is only one

china, taiwan is part of china. this is acknowledged by the united nations by almost all the countries in the world, including all that you members states, including the united states, including all it's 5 i member states your name it japan. acknowledge that this is the corner stone of china's foreign relations with all the countries in the world with all the united nations. now, the united states cannot have the cake, i eat it back in 1979, the united states did the right thing. they sever the relations with taiwan. they cancel the defense treaty between the united states and taiwan. they withdrew all the u. s. troops, facial leading taiwan. now if they want to really reverse that, be my guest, but the consequences will be there will be no more to pro matthew relations between china and the united states, and the real legal status between china's mainland untie one is the our finished

a civil war. why taiwan ended up with his current situation. first of all, it's because of the chiral declaration, potsdam declaration. secondly, it's because of the civil war in china, the nationalist of forces, fred, the mainland, and settled down in taiwan. so if the united states keep provoking that they probably will provoke the resumption of the civil war. and do you think the u. s. wants to shit its sons and daughters plot for a civil war between china's mainland and china's taiwan province? be my guest. i don't think the united states want to shed blood of the american soldiers full taiwan. why it's fuel tile ever since the beginning of the $96.00 is china's mainland already possessed enough military capabilities to take taiwan by a false why china has never done that. because we all prefer peaceful renew vacation

of china. ok, let's take that point for robert. if we can then i guess the question is really, how far do you think the west particularly do s is willing to go in supporting taiwan and supporting taiwanese independence. right. there's a lot of economic arguments against going all the way in 2020 china over to the u. s. is the top trade partner in 2020 china was also the u. s. is top trade. yeah. and i know that economic leverage makes it much, much trickier again. so sort of the big distinction with the soviet union, right? we're able to play a sort of harder game at times. and so it's because they weren't dependent on them . and i would imagine that the chinese will use to economic leverage, you know, to just push back on this as well as the economies begin to link. and i do think that's coming. i do think united states particular is going to start on the line. it's economic relationship with china that will take a while, but as it does,

that will allow the united states to strike a sort of harder position all. but what is the moment i do is though, let's be realistic. i mean, you were talking about a major global economy that supplies a lot of things that everybody uses around the world. yeah. so yeah, then can take a long time, but i mean, ultimately i would, i mean, i would argue that politics trump's economics, that security and sovereignty and strategic concerns for most nation states are more important than running a trade deficit or, you know, getting through. but really what that means, the u. s. is going to try and produce everything itself again, and a complete reversal of, i don't know, decades of globalization trends. i mean, no, no, just, we're trying to. but child globalization though, isn't it? that's right. that's right, but it's also fairly recent, right? i mean, generally joining retail 20 years ago. i mean, it can be on wound, right? particularly if you're concerned concerned about a major collision superpower level. right. then, then, you know, suffering higher costs at wal mart is worth it. and i mean that, and the trump and people already signal this, right?

i mean some people, all the arrows, i'm china and i think last comment robert? no, i don't. i don't. i think the us business me, like i said before, i think the business community is don't really ambiguous about that, but i do think the business community to the right on china. yeah. do you think that us business communities, far less pro, trying to that was, or in part because they came to the chinese government to regulate from unfairly and, you know, and then sort of politicize a lot of stuff and are forced tech transfer and they are piracy and i v e i b, she's but, but yeah, i mean, i still think there's a fair block. yeah. what sort of the chamber of commerce as to why china integration, but i think that's, that's that losing. and i also think, as i said before, the ultimate strategic concerns will be the ones that really matter. a perception is that china using sort of cheap goods at walmart in order to bully us friends in, in the region. then you know, it's all to my congress. i call the shot not wall street. but since we're talking economics, let's take some of those points to time pe, brian, you think economic interest also something that taiwan is,

is benefiting from these economic into dependence concerns that robert is talking about in the west? is it particularly when it comes to integration? the need for taiwanese made semi conductors the west is increasingly looking at how to improve its business relationship with taiwan. right. and so there are arguments, for example, one of the shirts to china lading taiwan. is that one that i've actually trying to think about? there's also the argument then that the u. s. interests are from western countries in taiwan is because, again, let me can. i'm writing, it's also important to keep in mind that china does not actually have to lift capacity to transport. and after that, i want to carry a long term occupation. and in the face, resistance, china would offer suffering enough losses. that is to be kind of a major political blow for these people. so that's our mind. but i think what is key to note then in terms of, for example,

translation between i won and european countries is that this is the 3 with eastern european countries that have not as strong a trade relation was fine up compared to western europe. and they are reliance on the u. s. with purity, solar, taiwan, but in this case is against the threat of russia. and so, i think the part i want is the way to signal strengthen relations with the us in this. they have no motivation whether western european countries follow. i mean, there's no question that isn't so on from the europe is the leader of that is french. that is me esteem. however, i think that, you know, you have to be careful in terms of how we look at the economic list. when china, for example, when, when there's pressure applied to it, it actually oftentimes will boycott, for example, suitable good to register displeasure with south korea or other countries, not the political tension permit. these are not those but its own supply chains rely on such as i think the doctors and i think we need to be a little more specific here rather than think of things in these very fuzzy obstructions. ok, i think we've got about a minute left. so let me try and get in

a final word from victor and victor. what's the bottom line here? it does seem like the by the ministration has succeeded. some was in bringing allies together. again in some kind of aligns against china. been perhaps more of an aligned to listen, the trump administration. how can china count that? well, 1st of all, channel united states will have their virtual summit meeting on monday, november the 19th or 15th, this sense, a very good message to the whole world. because ah, the dead end is not there and the 2 countries are not destined to fight off each other in the war. the 2 countries have much greater interest to talk about. then simply the tie one issue. and the fact that channel the united states signed this climate change agreement in glasgow speaks loudly that china and the united

states can't get their acts together to promote corporation and friendship eventually. and taiwan will be a smaller fee in the overall scale of china. us relations after all, these are the 2 greatest donations in the world, the 2 most important militaries in the world, and the 2 largest economists in the world. i am very optimistic about the medium and longer term relations between china and the united states. that's and on an optimistic note. thank our guests at this point, that's thank brian he, robert kelly and victor gal. and thank you to for watching, you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com. further discussion had over to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha. inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. how handle there is an a j inside story. from me, sam is a dan and the whole team here for now. it's to provide,

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