into school and says she sees the tide turning. so the world is watching for sure. and canadians are watching, and that's where it's really important is that we continue to witness this together and to walk through it and not take our eyes off that and not try to, you know, don't go back to sleep, stay away. indigenous leaders, warren canadians, to brace themselves for more discoveries of unmarked graves at former residential school sites, and with flags returning to full staff. following remembrance day, the government of canada must come up with an alternate way to address that pain. jody vance. al jazeera vancouver. ah, this is out there are these you top stories, saddam's army chief of the facade, but han has appointed a new ruling. counsel lead by himself, weak self to the military seas power. and he 14 member council excludes men based

off sue dawns, main opposition coalition is thrown condemnation from the un, which says to don's been put father away from returning to constitutional order. obviously taking a look at these developments. oh, i would say they're very concerning. so we want to see a return to the transition as quickly as possible. so we want to see the release of from house, or us of prime minister, ham dork. as well as all other politicians and leaders that have been detained as, as of refugees trying to cross into the european union, remained trapped on the border between galleries and poland. but you is a keesing bellow race of encouraging the migrants and is threatening the sanctions . ellery says, a will retaliate by cutting off gas applies to europe. he and security council has met to address the bold,

a crisis west and countries including the u. s. and the u. k. at ballerina is trying to destabilize its neighbors and a calling for stronger international action. the bell rational authorities should understand that putting pressure on the european union in this way, through a cynical instrumental a zation of migrants will not succeed. you had such a general has urged delegates that they call 26 climate summit to pick up the pace and agree on a way forward antonio terrace. as efforts to keep global warming to one and a half degrees above pre industrial levels is on live support. while discussions and commitments i far have failed to meet the un goals, he told attendees he remains hopeful. in k, as a headline, news continues here. after inside story ah

a u. s. delegation visits taiwan a week after a tour of you. politicians triggered fury in china. wants behind the increasing interest from the west. and how far will they go to defend the island? this is inside story. with hello and welcome to the show. i'm sammy's a than taiwan status is a politically sensitive issue. the island off the coast of china has its own president, a democratically elected government,

and the strong economy. but beijing regards it as a break away province that must be reunited with the mainland by force. if necessary, it's condemns the u. s. and e, you force it calls provocative visits to the island. a u. s. congressional delegation landed in taipei on tuesday. it follows the 1st official tour from you legislators last week who praised tiwana as an ally for democracy and freedom. china's foreign affairs ministry accused the u. s. in the you of collaborating with taiwanese independence forces president, she doing ping warned against what he calls a return to cold war era divisions to attempt to draw audiological lines on geo political grounds will fail. the asia pacific shouldn't relapse into the division of the cold war. era only 15 countries recognize taiwan as an independent nation, the u. s. and the u. a not among them. however, they do maintain

a relationship of strategic ambiguity. the u. s. has a military presence in taiwan. tensions between beijing and taiwan around the rise . china is a full sent a rec, hold number of war planes into the islands a defense zone. last month. china is the use largest trading partner. taiwan economy remains heavily dependent on china. and taiwan is one of the world's biggest technology producers. for example, it supplies many components for the latest smart phones the. let's bring our guests into the show. we have joining us from type brian hugh writer and founder of new blue magazine in boston in south korea, robert kelly, professor of political science and diplomacy at present national university. and in beijing, victor gout chair, professor at su chow university. welcome to all,

i could stop, pass this time with victor. what message is being sent? do you think to china by the congressional visit to taiwan? well, 1st of all, this congressional visit to the, or to taiwan a by the u. s. members of congress is a serious violation of the one china policy and the china will take measures accordingly. and china has already announced our series of sanctions against 3 most seniors are members who promote power independence. and i think all these members of congress from the united states will be put under sanction list, meaning they will be banned from entering channels, mainland channels, hong kong challenge, macau, and they and their family members will be banned from. do any business with china's mainland? hong kong and macau, i think this sense a very strong message that china does not tolerate any such provocation. any

attempt to bo, promote one china, one, taiwan or cohen independence. this is a line drawn in the sand and no political force in k, a one will ever be successful in achieving power independence. why? because history does not allow that. and the 1400000000 chinese people does not allow that at that number of chinese people include the majority of the 23000000 people on taiwan. this is the reality. i hope u. s. politicians will be realistic and pragmatic. they shall not bet on highway independence at all. victory is the u. s. in china heading towards a cold war. no, i don't think so. why? because the cold war is against the fundamental interest of the united states, against our fundamental interest of china. it is against that world of peace and development. all right, let me warn you off cold war. let me bring in robert. if i may, there not ask the same question. do you think it looks like i mean this talk of

sanctions band less military drills? promises to stand by taiwan sound like a cold war shaping up to you. yeah, it does. i think if you listen to dr. gough, it sounds an awful lot like you're talking about sanctioning members of congress right in the united states has done that kind of stuff to there's been a big shift in the american opinion and i asked for 5 years about engagement with china. now there's a growing regret that the united states facilitated china's entrance into the retail. i think that's one. the reasons why she was there up taken language about taiwan. taiwan is increasingly becoming the focal point of sino american competition along with the south china sea. and yeah, i think we're sort of sliding there. i don't know. it's going to be as a disaster. yeah, i mean, i was going to say, is it different this time a, i mean might be easy to draw the cold war parallels, but the economies of the, of the u. s. and china or western countries in general and china much more into

dependence, right? than china as much wealthier, more wealthy than the soviet union was. that's right. and i mean, it was a couple things. first of all, time is greater, wealth means that it really does trends with cold work. laughter. great. you're longer, right. i mean, the soviets were already losing the cold war by the 1970, because they simply couldn't afford the military spending to keep up with, with nato and the countries around it. china got a much greater capacity that actually slug this out and drag on for decade. on the other hand. so the good news is because the 2 are the drama intertwine. both have a business community that would strongly like to avoid a cold war, right? i'm in the u. s, and i can't speak too much, but on the, on the u. s. under it, you know, the business community has been promoting investment in china for a long time, and u. s. investment of the u. s. business community has sort of pushed back on on hawkish voices in washington, dc. and the think tanks, you know, again, those want to take a harder line on china. now you have business minute is actually saw and a lot i'm trying to, it's not nearly as bullish in china as well. or there been a lot of issues with piracy and intellectual property and things like that in china

. so i don't think that you are a business community sort of deterring the hawks anymore. increase in the hawks in the us are dominating the conversation. you saw that by then, trump, right. there's increasingly a bipartisan sort of agreement that, that china is what a strategic competitor. i suppose. i don't want to say an enemy. i don't think we're there yet. but a strategic competitor. i think most americans would agree with that is the view from ty pay. brian, why do you think western interest has increased in taiwan lately? we've had not only this visit from and of congress, but we also recently had visits from european officials to ty pay. yeah, so we just saw the question of a new cold war. whether this framework does apply to the present, and i think what is different between the new cold war and the old or the original cold war, is that china and i cannot find and i want is a place that it's neatly between the 2. i want manufactured more than half conductors passed around. i was water. and so it's finding that this becomes

a flash point regarding us in china, not only charge of regarding the trade interest as well. and so for example, going to some reports on it's not a factor any can up or even in the cruise missiles from final pointed out, i want and i think this is illustrative of the dilemma that i want that i want is very intertwined economically, which china is reliance on the us curity. there is not a majority of counties that are in support of china poll after poll over. that's the question that this is the point image for us in china are battling out for interest and so on is serving as a box the arena in which they are over the presence. let's take some of those points back to victor. then in beijing, victor, do you think china's increasing ability to projects its, its power militarily, whether it's over taiwan, whether it's in the south china sea, to project its economy and economic influence through 5 g technology to allegedly cyber security breaches. do you think all of that is fueling concern in the west?

now 1st of all, china is a big power in the world. and china does need a national defense capabilities can measure it to its increasing economic are reached. this is a fact. second point, china's national defense is mostly for domestic defense, as well as liberating taiwan if we have to all peaceful reunification with taiwan, preferably and china's military defense is designed to protect china's legitimate interest in far corners in the world. this is the nature of china's national defense. china does not want to invade any other country or take over any other countries land, because this is not only against china's own interest, it is against the principle of peace and peaceful coexistence with all the other countries in the world. therefore,

i think there are people who are raising false alarms, abbas about china's economic development, or the steady development of its defense capabilities. china's defense capabilities are very large, is on the par with the united states. no very large extent. and any one will provide council or victor wanna talk about simply defensive posture. in july, we had that coordinated us in european condemnation of china for what they saw as hacking. if you talk about hacking, read the edward snowden, his book, or writings a, you will know who is the top hacker in the world today. don't mention to me about china doing hacking, where you ignore what edward snowden has written, very eloquently about who is the king of hacking in the world of today. ok, let's take that point to robert's is the west. increasingly viewing china as an adversary

on political, economic and security levels, because china is gaining an ability to do back to world pals what they've been had the monopoly on doing power selection. sure. and yeah, yeah i, i think that's pretty, pretty clear also, right. i mean, china, as i, dr. got pointed out, china is developing a full spectrum of military insecurity plants, which means not just a traditional force projection across water and air, which is of course taiwan. big concern. but that also means, like center space under c outer space will also become an issue. us in china warm will certainly try to militarize lower earth orbit in the next 30 or 40 years. i would not be surprised that at all. right. i mean, that's going to happen during the 1st goal were to write him in the cold war sort of very quickly in the 1950s are spread out into a 3rd world and sort of got all mixed up and inter anti colonial insurgencies and stuff like that. and you'll be at nom and the rest of it. and so i would not be

surprised if the larger political competition between the 2 were to spill all kinds of different directions. right. i mean, i think the good news is that i doubt that would be sort of sustain major land conflicts like there were during the 1st cold war. things like i can't stand and korea. i doubt that will happen again in part, because most of the constant conversation between the us in china is on china maritime perimeter. right. which sits in the water. so that's good because that means you shouldn't actually have some major land conflicts. but again, i think up there on the other side, that's sort of good news. on the other side, you know, the bad news i suppose for the americans are the will, is that china is much wealthier and can expanded all these domains and actually count to the americans. again as dr. dimension, right? americans are in the hacking too. and you know, i'm sure you know, i don't know too much about this, but i'm pretty sure that the american chinese are both trying to hack each other. i don't think anybody would be surprised at that. my up, i'm kind of caught in the middle. i think the picture that emerging from the discussion is that there is a much bigger political, global power game going on between the west and china. taiwan is in the middle.

let's take that question to tie, pay and ask brian. then does this mean from the tie when needs perspective, do they see that the west is actually invested in taiwan in taiwan independence, per se, all simply invested in taiwan as a car to play off against china? the very question is something that i want has struggled with for decades effective . how long has a decades of thousands, a missile or a point to mr. there's around $600.00 aaron identification in the past year, which is october 1st and october 5th. the 5 days after signing special day, there wonder 50. and so these chinese directed us, i want to increase the people are not in panic because of the fact that they use the same fine pacing policies, strategic ambiguity. what the american position is on our, on is clear. you have the strength of relations with taiwan as you see under trump and under bided over at the end. the day there is not a commitment to back,

but at the same time, what needs to be kept clear is that how many is, are not pushing for independence in the fact that most people only have or the status quo. they realize that pushing for independence lead to a loss of american support, but i want that to be this war. most pony is just wants to be left alone by china, and that's why they have stuck to the magic. you looking for this out of maintaining what is this now? the factor independence, but not there's your independent over aging is increasing. it's red line is changing with a red line, and i mean it's increasing respiratory taiwan, even though the preference is remaining. even though it's fine ministration itself . culture is framed as percent per dependent. victor in beijing is china losing the ability to discourage closer relations with taiwan by signaling you know that there'll be an economic cost in the past. it seems that that made western

countries a lot more cautious. but lately we've had, i think in august the lithuanians, authorizing the opening of a taiwan representative office, the president of the check senate visiting taiwan in september, the u. delegation that visited recently. and now this congressional visit. well, so civil, you talked of our, several eastern european countries, and i want to remind you that china already asked that country the records are mazda to china, if they continue on to the wrong path of provoking china in violation of the one china policy chair that probably will sever it's the appro by they've relations with that particular country, but they say the record have trained to my question will have, does that lean jain is and ability tire time fluence other countries policies towards taiwan? is my question. yeah, the, the answer is the invalid is all the impact to be very clear. there is only one

china, taiwan is part of china. this is acknowledged by the united nations by almost all the countries in the world, including all that you members states, including the united states, including all it's 5. i members, states your name it japan. acknowledge that this is the corner stone of china's foreign relations with all the countries in the world with all the united nations. now, the united states cannot have the cake, i eat it back in 1979, the united states did the right thing. they sever the relations with taiwan. they cancel the defense treaty between the united states and taiwan. they withdrew all the u. s. troops, station leading taiwan. now if they want to really reverse that, be my guest, but the consequences will be there will be no more to provide the relations between china and the united states and the real legal status between channels. mainland anti one is the our finished

a civil war. why taiwan ended up with his current situation. first of all, it's because of the cairo declaration pottstown declaration. secondly, it's because of the civil war in china, the nationalist of forces, fred, the mainland, and settled down in taiwan. so if the united states keep provoking that they probably will provoke the resumption of the civil war. and do you think the u. s. wants to shit its sons and daughters plot for a civil war between china's mainland and china's taiwan provings. be. ready my guest, i don't think the united states want to ship blood of the american soldiers for taiwan. why it's fuel tile ever since the beginning of the $96.00 is china's mainland already possessed enough military capabilities to take time one by force. one channel has never done that because we all prefer peaceful reunification of

china. ok, let's take that point to robert. if we can, then, i guess the question is really, how far do you think the west, particularly the us, is willing to go in supporting taiwan and supporting taiwanese independence? right. there's a lot of economic arguments against going all the way in 2020 china over to the u. s. is the top trade partner in 2020 china was also the u. s. is top tray. yeah. and i know that economic leverage makes it much, much trickier again. but the big distinction with the soviet union, right, we're able to play a sort of harder game at times. and so we weren't dependent on them. and i would imagine that the chinese will use to economic leverage, you know, to just push back on this as well as the 2 economies begin to the link. and i do think that's coming. i do think united states particularly is going to start on the line. it's economic relationship with china that will take a. ready while, but as it does that will allow the united states to strike

a sort of harder position open. what is the moment i do is though, let's be realistic. i mean, we're talking about a major global economy that supplies a lot of things that everybody uses around the world. yeah. so yeah, then can take a long time. but i mean, ultimately i would, i mean, i would argue that politics trump's economics, that security and sovereignty and strategic concerns for most nation states are more important than running a trade deficit or, you know, getting through. but really what that means, the u. s. is going to try and produce everything itself again, and a complete reversal of, i don't know, decades of globalization trends. i mean, no, no, just, we're trying to. but child globalization though, isn't it? that's right. that's right. but it's also fairly recent, right? i mean, generally jointed every 20 years ago. i mean, it can be on wound, right? particularly if you're concerned concerned about a major collision superpower level. right. then, then, you know, suffering higher costs at wal mart is worth it. and i mean that, and the trumping people are the signal this, right?

i mean it's from people on the terrace on china. and i think the last comment, robert, no, i don't, i don't. i think the us business me, like i said before, the business community is still fairly ambiguous about that, but i do think the business community to the right on china. yeah. i think the us business communities far less pro trying to them or in part because they think that the chinese government to regulate from unfairly and, you know, and then sort of politicize a lot of stuff and, and are forced tech transfer. and they are piracy and i v e issue but but yeah, i mean, i still think there's a fair block. yeah. what sort of the chamber of commerce, i see why china integration, but i think that's, that's that losing. and i also think, as i said before, the ultimate strategic concerns will be the ones that really matter. a perception is that china using sort of cheap goods at walmart in order to bully us friends in, in the region. then you know, it's all the way congress i call the shot not wall street. but since we're talking economics, let's take some of those points to time pe, brian, you think economic interest also something that taiwan is,

is benefiting from these economic into dependence concerns that robert is talking about in the west? is it particularly when it comes to integration? the need for taiwanese made semi conductors the west is increasingly looking at how to improve its business relationship with taiwan. right. and so there are arguments, for example, one of the shirts to china waiting taiwan. is that one that i've actually trying to think about? there's also the argument then that the u. s. interests are from western countries in taiwan is because of, again making up. i'm writing, it's also important to keep in mind that china does not actually have to lift capacity to transport. and after that, i want to kind of a long term occupation and in the faith resistance, china would offer suffering enough losses. that is to be kind of a major political blow for the see. so that's our mind. but i think what is key to note then in terms of, for example,

translation routine i want and european countries is that this is the 3 with eastern european countries that have not as strong a trade relations is fine up there to western your consumption. and they are reliance on the u. s. with purity, solar, taiwan, but in this case, against the threat of russia. and so, i think the part i want is a way to signal strengthen relations with the us in this. they have no motivation whether western european countries follow. i mean, there's no question that isn't so on from the europe is the leader of that is french. that is to be seen. however, i think, you know, we have to be careful in terms of how we look at the economic list. when china, for example, when, when there is pressure applied to it, it actually oftentimes will boycott, for example, suitable good to register this budget, red south korea or other countries and the political tension permit. these are not good, but it's on supply chains rely on such as i think the doctors and i think it needs to be a little more specific here rather than think of things in the is very fuzzy. obstructions . ok, i think we've got about a minute left. so let me try and get in

a final word from victor and victor. what's the bottom line here? it does seem like the by the ministration has succeeded. some was him bringing allies together again in some kind of aligns against china. been perhaps more of an aligned to lease and the trump administration. how can china count that? well, 1st of all, channel united states will have their virtual summit meeting on monday, november the 19th or 15th. this sense, a very good message to the whole world because ah, the dead end is not there. and the 2 countries are not destined to fight off each other in the war. the 2 countries have much greater interest to talk about then simply the pri, one issue. and the fact that channel the united states signed this climate change agreement in glasgow speaks loudly that china and the united states can't get their

acts together to promote corporation and friendship eventually. and taiwan will be a smaller fee in the overall scale of china. us relations after all, these are the 2 greatest donations in the world, the 2 most important militaries in the world, and the 2 largest economists in the world. i am very optimistic about the medium and longer term relations between china and the united states. that's end on an optimistic note. thank our guest at this point, that's thank brian he, robert kelly and victor gal. and thank you to for watching, you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com. further discussion had over to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha. inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. how handle there is an a j inside story. from me, sam is a van and the whole team here for now it's provide

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