conciliation process. they say this is the best way to deal with their trauma. kurama juvenile killed the parents of these family. they're still neighbors. he was a family friend, no of gear yoko. i'd been living with a lot of fear since the siblings came back from tanza, near where they'd fled to every time at sea them. i'd have no peace in my heart. when they finally fully forgave me in 2017. my heart was full. isaac, the go hora, was only 15 years old. it took him a long time to forgive. he says, room ref, while in the church where he publicly said, sorry, we told him to take us to where the remains of our parents were dumped. we went to the mass grave where the priest than blessed those who were buried there. this investigation is starting up emotions and opening up old ones. but this family's enrica talis. it is a healing process. kathy saw al jazeera reagan province,

berlington. ah, this is al jazeera, these are the top stories, thousands of opposition. supporters have been protesting, intern, nicea against the president and the accused of a power grab, i say, and sacked his prime minister and froze parliament in july. he says he did it to save his country and fight corruption. so she is read out. now, i don't know what the way we have been under one man ruled since july 25th. an individual who violated the law violated the constitution, shut down the state, closed parliament with tanks, shut down, government and state institutions suspended the constitution and to day closed the streets, the soil of the republic to day, the country is close to him. the son of libya's former leader and more, more gadhafi is running for president of the country next month. so far, islam says he wants to restore unity after a decade of conflict since his father was deposed. a newly founded anti corruption

party appears to be leading in bulgaria as parliamentary elections, according to exit polls. the we continue, the change party is up against the center, right. party headed by former prime minister boycott bought us off. it's a 3rd parliamentary vote to see him. poland supply ministers, calling on nato to take concrete steps to resolve the migrant crisis. and it's border with bella, luce, that's where thousands of people are trying to get in to the european union. the bell, russian government accused of encouraging them to illegally cross into poland as retaliation for sanctions from the e. u. a block said to impose more restrictions on monday. vote counting is underway in argentina's mid term elections. the conservative oppositions leading in key districts 80 percent of the ballots have encountered in the governments facing rising discontent over the state of the economy. those are the headlines. the news is going to continue here on al jazeera and about half an hour after inside story.

good by ah, the refugee stand off between bella bruce and the european union escalates. it's the latest example of the you winds refugee convention under stream. so, do we need a new international agreement to ensure better protection from migrants and refugees? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm hammer, jim, jim beller,

bruce and the you are raising their stakes in the stand off over refugees and migrants. the e. u is imposing more sanctions on entities in belarus. it accuses president alexander lucas shanker. of encouraging undocumented migrants to cross into poland, lithuania and latvia. in response, luc ashika is threatening to cut off gas supplies to europe. poland has asked nato to take concrete steps to resolve the crisis. thousands of refugees are stuck in the middle of the political route. they've spent weeks at the border sleeping and camps in freezing temperatures. many have been denied basic protection such as housing and medical care for you in is urging all sides to uphold their obligations under international humanitarian law. venosity because of called her babies, seek her eyes, her problem arise out water. her baby, you cushion closely. she cried because of the shall. air is allen. this is bayne the most tiring. 2 months of my life we even fell into

a pond. water reach up to here, i fell and we didn't have clothes. then i got sick. when the border guards found us, i couldn't even stand by myself. the bela roost you stand off is just one example of how international refugee and migrant protections are under strain. italy and spain have forced migrant boats back to north africa. the united states has tried to stop record numbers of central american migrants crossing its southern border. and for 20 years, australia has kept refugees and asylum seekers in offshore prisons. in pup one new guinea and narrow view and refugee convention was drawn up 70 years ago in the shadow of world war 2. it lays out states his obligations towards refugees, an additional protocol in 1967, broaden the scope of those who can seek protection. signatories have a legal duty to protect those fleeing persecution and serious harm. this includes

that they can't be returned to a place where they felt in danger or be denied safe shelter. it also says a state shouldn't stop them entering. $149.00 countries have ratified the convention, the protocol or both. in 2018, the u. n. introduced a new international agreement known as the global compact on refugees to better protect refugees and migrants. it's not legally binding, but commit signatories to improving cooperation on international migration. all right, let's bring in our guess in geneva. shabby, i'm on to spokesperson for the you in refugee agency in oxford, non those are going up professor of international migration and force displacement at university of birmingham and in cambridge, marianna, kara kalokie, a researcher and journalist focusing on refugees in greece. a warm welcome to you all, and thanks for joining us today on inside story shabby. let me start with you today . there are those who say that the refugee convention, which is 70 years old,

is falling short of its mission that it is under too much strain. could a new international agreement ensure better protection for migrants and refugees going forward? we're seeing 70 is in the registry convention and it's been 70 years of saving lives. it is instrument is actually one of the greatest human rights in she had ever been developed. it saved millions of lives across the world for the past few decades. it's called principles i universal there as relevant as emma on the basis of this, people can access safety and protection, the people who conflict executing human rights violations. so the coverage that it extends on the protection senator full. it's to people these, these assignments, universal principles that have been codified. there's not an element of the convention that is outdated because this is really like saving at its core. but the real test and the real precious days to make sure that it is applied in practice. and for that we are seeing some great examples around the world with the provisions

of the convention where its principles given respected. but we are also seeing a great case where they have been hence to undermine or circumvent the convention anticipations. marianna, let me ask you, do you think from your perspective that the you in refugee convention needs updating? do the protections that are offered, need to be expanded, and is there enough political will to even do something like that? so there it is. protection has certainly saved a 1000 millions of lives, however, and they'll think that it's up so late because it ignores fracture violence such as poverty. but it also ignores environmental issues as years file. we're going to see more and more environmental refugees are trying to cross from the global south of the global north. i. however, the biggest problem is not in my view of the refugee convention. it's a political way. because to have a successful convention unit, politically will,

and in europe case, you can, you can see that europe in european union specifically is falling short on that nando. i want a quote from a piece that you wrote recently about what's going on at the poland beller bruce border. you said while understanding the geopolitics behind the current border crisis is useful and relevant. the protection of vulnerable people stranded at the border and their humanitarian needs should remain paramount as well as their right to claim asylum. this. this idea of people being stuck there in the middle of this geopolitical route that's going on. has that all gotten lost in this it so i mean too many ways is know if you knew what's happening. i mean, we have seen it is escalating it tactics that we've seen apply those since we're not the weapon is ition or refugees them for displacement. the use of civilian says a human shield. so this is why we need a un convention. we need the protection of you,

our rights of civilian. so people that are suffering from persecutions and violence, et cetera. the point, so my reading of what's going on now at the border between bellows and poland is clearly clearly a boulder crisis, which has got its own sort of banners geopolitical agenda that overlap with each other. and in which the people i've just gotten in the middle that she not just for godaddy used to achieve other other goals. your question about, well, do we need the new you and convention the fridays is a while. the tool may not be working always as well as we will like in the current political climate. if we were going to negotiate the convention, like the genie, michael mentioned, you will not get to that level of protections. i mean, this is one, something that a lot of people are well aware of, and this is why the, despite the cold for improving the accountability of party, et cetera. it's really difficult to imagine that there is enough political will to

create another tool which is more effective and protected people. i mean, it seems like that states don't really want to do it. shabby at pend to the top of your twitter account, or these words, just your daily reminder that seeking asylum is not illegal. the right to seek asylum is a fundamental right. so let me ask you, how disturbing is it to you that more and more countries seem to continue to frame this idea that people seeking asylum is something that is not legal? indeed, i think it's a very, very worrying trend, but i think we all have to put things into perspective. the great majority of states in many countries around the world, our respect refugee rights are enabling people who seek safety across into a territory. in some cases, they ensure that they are included in a national health system education and are able to work. so you have some really good examples of what's happening. and at the same time we have to remember 90

percent of the world's repeated. where could you say that hosted in, in there actually in developing regions where we're seeing also a very disproportionate response, really inflammatory rhetoric female bring about refugees, which is really unhelpful. and at the same time, it's really dangerous narrative that's trying to disrespect the rights that refugees, people, people who don't actually want to flee, that being driven out of their homes because their lives are in peril. there's lane conflict, violence, persecution on the basis of their identity. so we're talking about a very small fraction of people as a response on our ship around that is just completely overwhelmed and disproportionate in terms of the right cuz they have but also the reality of actually where the name on the situation may not though i saw you nodding a long number, what shall be i was saying there, did you want to jump in? still a feature that is something we were observing a were so me

a moment is this idea that the right to claim asylum is denied. even at the early stage when we basically portrayed the represent, we talked about the people at the border as illegal migrants, for example. so the use of the terms, the let vocabulary is very important. if you look at the way the bellows and poland for a sample are referring to the people, quote in the, in the middle of this book, the crisis, poland would be and your opinion are very careful not to talk about the asylum seekers or refugees. there was talk about illegal migrants or just migrants, while biller was just talking about refugees is incense is trying to, to make it pointed. the european union is preaching to human rights, obligation, etc. so the language is important and the rights of 2 to claim ourselves is a fundamental one that would really make need to make a lot of $42.00 to a shooter retains in the current crisis. and in general, marianna, i saw you just reacting right now to what nanda was saying, did you want to jump in? yeah, basically as manda said that it's important to pay attention to language. and we

have seen that throughout the years that the narrative on our refugees in microns has changed. and what is happening in poland is not something you know, it happened in greystone the 6th time. if it was 1516, it could happen again. plenty, plenty, and now it's happening in poland. but the main thing that i want to focus on is that once the media attention stops what happens, then what happens to those people and those people who will be trying to crowd because the movement will not stop. but will you put in the you, you being union be open to receiving them and that, respecting the you and refugee convention shabby. i am marianna, there was talking about the fact that it's, you know, the migrations is not going to stop and, and i wanted to bring up these latest numbers from the u. n. refugee agency when it comes to global displacement. it's talking about 84000000 actually in excess of 84000000 people is the number of refugees asylum seekers and internally displaced.

as more people around the world fled violence insecurity and the effects of climate change in the 1st half of 2021. these numbers are staggering. ah, do you expect that the these numbers that the number of cases of people trying to flee disasters and violence are only gonna grow in the years ahead? well, most of the, the numbers that moment actually most of the people that have been displaced or just made that hurts are actually hosted within their own countries with allen crawford international board us. but they've been told to police the safety of what we call them, may displace people. and then we are talking about more than $20000000.00 refugees who have a cost of national voted to say. but 90 percent of them said 9 out of 10 people offered in developing countries. they're not in in europe that on a global north and largely within what we call the global self. so that has to be borne in mind when we have these discussions because the facts and the artists get

twisted and distorted under the paints and very boring pictures. and then i went to the general rings, are the factors that most of the strange and hosting a responding to refugee crisis is blown by developing countries. and that's why there was a change national framework that was agreed to the compact, which for refugees, which was very cognizant of this inequity in the global response. but in us that your question is going to increase. yes, we bring that on a, on a yearly basis. that they are increasing, and this is a result of a lack of political will and commitment to resolve the crises. but cool people typically because that wrestling conflicts, i think main security, but we're seeing conflicts around the world. they continue because of the lack of political resolutions. we have been calling for quite some time that these response to based crisis requires global coordination action to end the root causes for people to play. in the 1st place, marianna shall be there, mentioned the global contact on refugees. i was adopted in december 2018. it called

for the international community to work together to improve the self reliance of refugees, among other things. but this global compact on refugees. it's not legally binding, some curious from your perspective. can it truly offer solutions? some minor solution certainly. however, unless the global norm specifically in the west respects the nothing is gonna change. and from why we're, we're seeing in grace specifically, they're not respecting a binding or not binding documents in grace. it's quite clear that sir, the great government are with the knowledge of the european union is violating international law. and this has been clearly documented, but nothing is happening. so i don't think that so many things will change because there is no political away from no one man to let me ask you

a version of the same question. from your perspective, what kinds of protections do you see that the global compact on refugees could potentially offer? they did the business to develop these rules came from from the end of the 2015 and 16 record your crisis. there was the idea that it was a global reference, your crisis and people come together. during the preparation, initial decision was to develop a single global compact, and then we'll split into one. so to focus on migrants and they want to reduce the what the elements that is important here. and it's actually somehow relevant for the current crisis, i think, is this idea that a lot to force that would be improved in, in mobilizing people in so counter transit, you know, is to get to come just to do more in terms of protecting the rights of the people on the move facility, the for example, access to ride to labor, etc, in so called transit country to assure that the best you can do the next step as

well. so that he's protecting the right on one end. but also as part of this to that, he's clearly also a control agenda which is behind it, done that them. and i've been involved in some of the negotiations and i listen to how different countries were responding to it. so that's why i'm sort of, there isn't a big in the schools. can i just saw the something about the numbers you mentioned before is do the number of the, you know, 80000000 to the 20000000 over 20 billions or to just say that. but one thing we should not mistake is the fact that those are stock number, which means this is the total of all record use in the book that this point, if this is maybe even people that movie 20 years ago. so this is not, and it's important because sometimes especially in sort of in and sympathetic media, we see this figure very much use as a to, to create an idea of invasion going got, i mean, the number of people that move every single day is much smaller i mean, if you look at the flow of people seeking the protection of the refugees of so many

to be careful not to conflict. also because if you think in terms of what kind of problems that they're in terms of how to promote integration set zillow peaceful leading together. there are some issues that come when a new population comes in in the country and others that come with that population has been the refugee for 30 years in the comfort. so slightly different optional, significant, different issues as well. shabby at let me pick up on something another was referring to, um, there are narratives out there. there are narratives out there politicians, especially in many countries where they attempt to demonize migrants and refugees. and we see that more and more the last several years. and, and i'm curious about, from your perspective and from the respect of the you and, or if g agency, i mean, what can be done to counter that. and we're saying some are really worried narratives. and toxic rhetoric to humanizes people at the end of the day. i mean, even when we talk about the human lives,

there are people who are entitled to benefit from, from the protection of the human rights of everyone else. but they're kind of reduced to really to political narratives used for, for elections or what kinds of campaigning. and so it's really important for the narrative to, to be counted with the truth. if you look at the numbers that we were talking about, if we're dealing with a very, very small amount of people that are seeking international protection, this is not something that's willing. and this can really be managed when there are proper silence systems in place that are expedient and efficient. and they can actually screen up people that do any protection. and so it's a really manageable problem. and what helps is really just as much encountering a company that now should i mean the work of the media yourself moment, but also i mean, broadcast media academics, everyone has a role to play and i think but we will compact reppidy also will for that show and

having a whole society approach to respond to recreate crisis, but everyone's on board and, and tackling this and being able to, to manage the situation. but also just ensuring very humane approach. where we remember that these people were talking about, they should be instrumental lives and reduced into humanized mary. and i want to look again for a moment towards the colon bella roost border because there is a new law in poland. polish security forces can use force to keep migrants from entry. human rights advocates have decried this policy and said that it is illegal under international law. is that the case? is it illegal? i think it is illegal. it, even though i'm not a legal expert, but let people have the right to seek asylum. and when this right is denied that something is wrong, and we've been saying it throughout hero, people are being denied that the right to seek asylum throughout the european union . and this is a major issue. and for me, as i said earlier,

the biggest thing would be to see what is going to happen in the below, sienna and polish border. once the media attention is away, because when this happens to grace, then grace continued to push back people illegal in denying the right their right to us to seek a sale. so i have a feeling that something similar is going to happen in poland. and allan has a sort of an authoritarian government, and this is a, a fox nando, the european migration crisis in 20152016 seemed to shock the international community. and a lot of countries said that they were going to redouble their efforts to come up with cohesive and humane solutions. and yet that didn't happen. why is that the case? are we ever going to see some kind of cohesive, coherent policy from the e you? when it comes to migration, when it comes to refugees,

i think that is clearly the issue of solidarity among your european member states. and the con, the source on is, is an issue. i mean, we have seen it in the previous wreckage a crisis, but in many ways that has been many years before since it is that the case, there's been an attempt to optimize the approach to the right to asylum. and there are some process within european unit with a lot of resistance by different states, you know, these idea. so we should that they use that. and so what i particular like as an expression is like the burden sharing, you know, these are the, that the european as a whole has to address the, the applications. and so it should contribute somehow other economically all providing shelter and protection to people that apply. we saw with the refugee crisis to the $1516.00 is that why there was a sort of that mechanism in place which was meant to facilitate the movement of

some speakers from the southern states increasing particular and moved it was, it took a huge a ford to really manage to do it to get to other countries to accept people that applied for a settlement in the boat, the states in. but there was some groups like the visa group, the center is that you will be a member states they always receive, receive any, any. ready coal for doing more in terms of taking responsibility for the some to get now, some i will be seeing is that actually is that board that is under pressure? and, and this is that even more than a challenge to europeans already because kind of like, you know, you know, greece, they have, they're really thinking about the, well, is it now what time to do something, i mean, if they ask for out, do we do it does not nothing go down into those 1516 when we're asking for support for them. shabbier, in 20152016,

i was covering the migration crisis in many different parts of europe. and i was really shocked by what i saw. i met a woman from iraq named so her and her, her 2 month old baby and bro, one and i 1st came across her as she was trying to enter hungary and then i came across her a few days later on crow issues border with slovenia. and she and her daughter, she was just trying to get to germany to be reunited with her husband. she couldn't understand how, having come from a place so violent that people in europe would not allow her to just get to her husband. but somebody was really heartbreaking, and i'm curious about what seems to be a collective loss of empathy these days when it comes to the rhetoric around refugees and migrants. and do you think that the politics of today are so devoid of empathy that the belief in human rights for all has diminished so much?

well, we really hope that won't be the case. i mean, we are seeing some very noisy narrative. social that are devoid of empathy and demonizing, but at the same time, it is a very mixed global picture. we're also seeing some amazing expressions of philadelphia and compassion, including and from the states and countries in the global south where they are receiving refugees. even at the height of the panoramic, when many borders around the world were closed, there were a number of countries that were still making sure that a buyer to buy their international legal obligations. they accepted refugees and even today we see the countries that haven't maybe a few resources to deal with these recipes months. and they're the ones that are hurting off the majority of refugees. it's very encouraging. it is a very mixed global picture and we hope that we see the expression for solidity and, and compassion and adherence to legal obligations that they are expended. but the story that you mentioned, mama, we,

we see that every day and i'll walk all over the world. people interest flame is horrendous circumstances trying to save their lives and their families. and which is why the refugee convention is so important. and it is also what might the stories, what we do see best practice and wasting great examples of this being extended protection being sent as a refugee. so it's important to have that focus but to encourage good practice and inherent more than anything. all right, we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much to all of our guests today shall be a man to non those, to go to and marianna, correct. lucky and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com, and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. our handle is at a j inside. so for me. mm hm. the jim jim, the whole team here, bye for now. ah

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