etc, of a city not far from the equator. the stadium was designed to be as airy as possible . 6 and it's an impressive piece of architecture. oh, but there's little danger of funds overheating in here. even when their local team managed to salvage a draw in this game. when it's me, i'll g 0, manassas, less than 2 weeks to go until christmas. hundreds of people in greece are getting into the festive spirits. they're taking part in the annual charity santa run the t kilometer race circles the cities olympic park. there's no need for any reindeer or slaves on a sunny day in a capitol. ah, this is al jazeera and these are the headlines. the u. s. president has declared an emergency in kentucky. after tornadoes devastated the state. this will allow for

more funding and aid to reach a region. we're more than 60 people are believed, have been killed. i did yo, castro has more from the town of mayfield's in kentucky. i spoke with one gentleman who is an attorney here. he pointed out, down from where i'm standing, the hospital in which he was born. that has been destroyed. now he owns a law firm on the other side of the street where he went to work every day that have been destroyed as well. i mean, this is not just physically, the town of mayfield that has been leveled, but it is decades of history of memories, of things that mean tangible memories and mean thing to these people. and so they are, of course, grieving for the loss of their town. u. k. has raised its career virus threat level and the government and encouraging people to get booster shots. it's warming, the spread of the micron variance is pushing the country bank into risky territory

. is trillion state of queensland is now opened to all vaccination domestic travellers for the 1st time and nearly 5 months. quinton shot, its orders in july to its neighboring states. the world health organization and the world bank say the cost of health care fished more than half a 1000000000 people into extreme poverty. at the height of the pandemic, the w h o once government speedo packets to make health care accessible to everyone . encouraging the introduction of universal health cover in el salvador, thousands of demonstrators on protesting against the governments. they're calling for an independent judiciary and accused president ny kelly. being a dictator, natalie bennett has become the 1st is really prime minister to make an official visit to the united arab emirates. he's met crime, prince mohammed bins. i, it's not him. and those are the headlines. keep it here on al jazeera

upfront is up next. who we understand the differences, americans have cultures across the round. so no matter how you take it out here, we're bringing the news and current to fast comp matter to you count his era every year in estimated 500000 people from central america attempt a dangerous journey crossing mexico to make it to the united states. southern border, these migrants are often traffic extorted by criminal gangs and even kidnapped along the way. we'll look at what makes people sit out on such a perilous journey in the 1st place. but 1st, poland has deployed thousands of troops on its border with beller roost to keep out . migrants were now stuck between both countries. 15 migrants have died at the border, and thousands of others have set up camps and below freezing temperatures. many are starving and in desperate need of humanitarian assistance. joining us to discuss

a situation at the border. this week's headliner, margin percentage holden's, deputy minister of foreign affairs marching church. thank you so much for joining us on up front. good afternoon. hello. thank you for having me right now. there are thousands of asylum seekers living in camps at the border between poland and bella roost. poland has said that they will not allow them to come into the country. and border guards have been accused of forcing migrants who make it through, back to the bellows, the inside of the border. but you denied pushing back margaret. so what are you doing? we are protecting the border of the european union. of course. those migrants who are invited by the luca seneca regime to come to buy the root. they do have an option, of course, to cross the border to do that through the crossing points with the legal documents, without the visa or without any emission to get to the european union. it shouldn't

be they shouldn't be allowed to cross the illegally. they do submit border, so those tool really want to go through that you, what they need to do is to get the document that get the visa or if there are seekers to apply and the special net procedure do that to get that. so they're, they're all legal way to get that to you. these people are coming to the border. they are asylum seekers and they are literally being turned back. they are being denied access to pay even to the proper paperwork for asylum seeking according to reports on the ground. how was this not a contravention of international law? well, maybe 1st, we need to understand the nature of this and the alteration, bella, russian. both of those migrants invited by the regime by britain, by, by the leader of russ from state. the fact though invited those people promising

them that they will be smuggled to the european union and using them as the instrument and his political operation against the u. e. was sanctioned, mister august central does not acknowledge him the leader of the, of the country. so this is a kind of revenge where the people are fully instrumental life and use of somehow bones or bullets in the hybrid operation. so we shall not accept the fact that location, good, black, mailing us with that kind of situation. but we want to help of course, those who are already in this diary situation. that's why we try to send several human dive in convoys. we try to get into engage the international organizations in order to have that iowa you say that you're trying to help people right now at least 15 people have died. many people say that they've come to the border and been turned away. for example,

a 35 year old man from the democratic republic of congo travel with his wife and 3 children. all of them were under 7 years old. and he said that his band was pushed back twice by polish border guards. the 2nd time he pleaded for asylum and they wouldn't listen. he said they told him there's no asylum. there's nothing. go back where you came from. it's hard to hear those type of stories. how do you respond? i do respond in such a manner does accepting those those thousands or. busy hundreds of people. unfortunately, we could encourage older to be in this difficult situation because it is a way of doing money focused on causewell, encourage and inviting people, then encouraging them to grow, to cross the legal. you double the border without securing protecting the boat. it would be even more thousands or, or tens of thousands of possible possible migrant. but we cannot, we cannot accept all the people who just want to cross the border with an excuse us

as i live speakers, because in, in the mid, vast majority, unfortunate the dos are, those people are not as island secrets just a regular migrant to what was great to go to on what basis do you say that they're not really asylum seekers? because the vast majority of those who are ready, crow successfully devoted, refused to fill any documents blaming, but they want to get to germany and to get them in other countries. germany or, or the netherlands, not in poland, poland for them, it just turns that country, according to the international law, the 1st country, the 1st safe country, should be the place where they apply for a dialogue. and in this case, basically, it should be bellows because bella routes for them is the country where, where, where they decide to go, you mention international law which is, which is interesting. 1 because the 1951 convention on that as a refugee says that the contracting states those who signatories to this. 1 shall

not expel a refugee lawfully in their territory sable grounds of national security. a public order. the expulsion of such a refugee shall be only in pursuance of indecision, reached in accordance with due process of law. what's happening at the border is not due process of law. these people are being pushed away without due process. they're not being taken to an asylum process and often things not even access to paperwork to engage in the process. so even if you're correct that, that these people ultimately don't want of asylum in poland, who are we to know without going through the process? this is clearly against international law. what, how do you, how do you reconcile your position with polar commitment to honoring international law? extensively. 31st this going to gone. benson was signing the 951. i think that's the nominal of a weapon is ation of migration is relatively new to and this is the case which was not foreseen and said the convention. but 1st thing, the 2nd argument is of course,

the net food sparks are not allowed when they're, when, when you are pushing back someone to the territory. and then she or his playing problem, i mean, and then those people are by their decision going to nobody force them to get on boards to go to meant to better for them. as i can imagine. and then it's not a dangerous country, of course, by the rest of the regime is very dangerous for the bus and opposition or the political activists. but not for those people. it's up to them whether they want to decide to go to this country or not. the european court of human rights in july of this year said that poland acted illegally when it pushed 3 fairy and nationals back to bella luce, in 2017. the risk of being returned to their home countries from better route high found the court and therefore poland should have taken that into account before refusing entry to these people. so the question here is whether or not the,

the polish government has the right to return. people, if they have a chance of being returned to a home country, there are people at the border who are making a decision to turn people away and say no asylum despite the fact that these people are crying for a 2nd. there people literally holding up science and i want asylum in poland. how can we turn them away? and they can, they can always go to the polish embassy or to be any older embassy and apply for them. the fact that they let themselves to be treated in such a way. by a bye, bye bye look. i think that not really how to solve this situation. we have our bilateral, or i would argue, flaming. argue that blaming the victim. you're literally saying that asylum seekers in refugees and persecuted minorities are allowing themselves to be treated that way by the bill of russian government. let's say you're right though. let's say that they're making the wrong decision that they should be at the iraqi or the theory and embassy in in bella was, let's say you're right. they're not though they're going across the border. an international law says that you have a right duty rather to take them in and to put them through an asylum's thinking

process. again, it's, it's, it's not clear to me how you're reconciling your commitment to following the law with your practices on the ground. we are, as i've already told you, that's what we are facing right now is a hybrid operational bella, russian regime, where people are in the room in the lies. and you thought the other weapon against the sovereign country against the sovereign border of the european union of the political answer to the decision of the european union. so what do we, what we need to do 1st is to protect those people from taking the decision to go through the pro, from iraq to a to battle ropes. but those who are already in bad route, they should be treated in the, in a proper manner. if they want to apply for as an island are also embassy to a detector of ballard route. they don't have to go to the border or even to the

crossing point and then they can apply to get that special special document. since joining the you in 2004 migration from poland to other countries has been very high now. very sadly, that's been coupled with an increase in anti polish immigrant sentiment. example u. k. ah, laminated cars were left outside of primary schools with the words no more polish vermin. but the leader of your ruling party euros law because in sky said a few years ago during a campaign rally. but margaret from the middle east were bringing cholera that they were bringing dysentery to europe. that they were risking the spread of various parasites. that's a quote. don't you find it? a little ironic that you seem to be repeating. the very same hostile language has been weaponized against your own people. well, those who i mean great is from poland. once we joined the you that they've done it

legally by, you know, there is a freedom of movement around the you both also. i mean, i mean great it to the us and they have to do that. they need to get the visa. let us just for clarity, think, let's assume they're all illegal. so are you saying that it's okay if they're illegal to use the humanizing language to call them? berman saying that the cholera isn't there? i wouldn't. i would. i wouldn't use that kind of language. but you've asked me about the pose living at bros, i'm just, i'm just asking, i'm just answering that those people big met legally and we also accept the question. my question was about the language. no, no. so my question about my question was about the language being used against them in the fact that the very same dehumanizing language used against polish people, i think are being used here. and you're saying you wouldn't use that language, but you are slow kazinsky to do you disagree. you condemn your locals. it's confusing that language. my answer would be that we accepted

a lot of migrants from all over the country. in the recent years to 1000000 of ukrainian hundreds of. busy thousands of russian citizens also from the older countries, middle east countries, central asia, africa, and you can come to worst and see how many foreigners working and living in poland. so we are very much open to the unfortunate, unfortunately, but only through the legal. i understand my question was about the dehumanizing language against them, but you haven't answered that. i'll have to, i'll have to ended there unless you're willing and should know, dehumanized, i wouldn't say that the quote to use the in reality, i mean the prime minister countries, you want it to the human if you want, maybe wanted to, to draw attention to special risk with regard to that, it was already couple of years ago, as i said, since that are many migrants from all over the world. so who came to poland legally

and we are happy to cooperate with them with them at the land. all right, so thank you so much for joining me on upfront the in the last 7 years, more than 2000000 people are estimated to f lead el salvador. what am i, la, and honduras risking their lives as they journeyed through mexico and hit for the united states southern border? last week, the u. s. reinstated the trump era remain in mexico policy, which forces asylum seekers to wait outside of the u. s. while they are asylum claims or process, a move human rights defenders have said will impact their safety and their due process rights. but what is causing people to take on this dangerous journey in the 1st place, and what's being done to address the root causes of this migration? joining us to discuss this, our laura carlson, director of the americas program. she joins us from mexico city and marco castillo, co executive director of the international human rights organization, global exchange. he joins us from new. you are. thank you both for joining me. mark

. i'm going to start with you. you work with migrants in mexico year from mexico. can you talk to a little bit about the journey that migrants go through to get to the us mexico border? sure, so what we're seeing right now, it's migrant. families actually from the countries at 3 from the hearts conditions and bark in a life threatening journey. we're immigration policies for them to take high risk droughts control by organized crime, or corrupt police and immigration officers that many times threaten or commit. kidnapping deeper to legal b, potations and savvy many times a journey. laura, marco is describing a very dangerous and troublesome journey that people are taking on what are some other factors we should be thinking about. whether happen, a lot of changes, we have to keep in mind that migration is normal, it's a part of life. it's

a part of human history. but what we've seen are a lot of changes. we've seen, of course, an increase. we've seen the increase in apprehensions at the us border. we're seeing an increase in central americans coming through mexico. and we've seen these real, these very notable changes, which is the change from a being young, been basically looking for work or escaping violence to entire family. what this shows us is the collapse of central american countries that has a lot to do with the history of us policy and other forms of intervention in their own. countries that have created a political, economic, and social collapse in which people are being displaced from their homes. they're being forced out by violence and death threats. literally. they've watched other family members be killed. they're told that they have to get out of their own homes in 24 hours. this is how dire the situation is that would actually cause people to

take on such a perilous journey. they're arriving in mexico in terrible shape. so it's a population that's been abandoned by public policy in all of the countries, and that has had the face conditions that no human family should have to face marco . we now see the re implementation of the remain in mexico policy. how will that affect the conditions that you and laura been describing? of course, since i've been patient of the m p. p in formerly known as remaining mexico, migrants have been forced to wade in mexico for the us ending. i've had them cases . and while the way they base terrible conditions at the mexican side of the border, and just to give you a number from approximately 68000 participants of the regional m, p b, just 723 were granted asylum, or some kind of immigration relief so what i'm,

what i'm saying here is that this is a policy that more than anything tries to, but turn the poured and just giving oppertunity for very few individuals to be very cases heard and accepted in the us. and so we're talking about thousands of people who remain in mexico, thousands of people being afforded and all this process is life threatening and obviously full of human rights violations law the a c. o. you said that the resumption of the remain in mexico policy would lead to court heretic abuse, including torture, rape, and death. are the stakes really that high? we've already seen it marco's interviewed people on the border in when it was implemented during the trump administration. i've been up there and talked to people in c 19, but the motor instead of what is we know this happens. there's over 600 documented cases, the people who came back who are assaulted or raped in mexico. there are people who

have gone back to their home countries and been assassinated because that's why they left in the 1st place. they knew they were going to be assassinated and nobody seems to want to take responsibility for what happens to those people. mexico never had to set that, that program, it's a violation of sovereignty because they're sending people who have legal processes in the united states, back to mexico, which mexico has no responsibility whatsoever to accept these people. you know, they're shuttling them all over the country with no real plan of what they can do to have a livelihood, to survive, to have a future. because these policies are completely shutting them out. marco, the majority of asylum seekers crossing the u. s. southern border coming from honduras, and salvador, guatemala. you were just in honduras, in fact, what's your take on why people risk their lives to make this incredibly dangerous journey from to the u. s. from places like on doors. nobody you migrate

because they want to be good. you know, for pleasure. i mean central american conscience. my lines have on our flags with us guns with organized crime would corruption and not only god, but what they might tell rather or are for example, among the 15 countries in the world most exposed to the pastors in november 2020 in what the mileage on that i will wear amongst the countries to be most severely impacted by the hurricanes it that new york in what am i alone at 40 percent of assistance subsistence agriculture subtracted in 80 percent of basic staples like mays or beans were devastated. so these are countries that are under, under the terrible food insecurity and already high for years before so much are lean, you know, and like almost circumstances that are impossible to bear,

like people cannot survive in their own countries. and that's why people embark in this. you know almost impossible journey laura, earlier this year, the by the administration proposed the strategy to address the root causes of migration from guatemala, han doors in el salvador, that included $4000000000.00 in aid. u. s. a. to these countries. is this any different from the programs we've heard in the past in the past? that's exactly the central point of follow up on what marco is saying, because unfortunately, it's not. and nobody like joe biden should know better than the fact that those kinds of proposals have failed in the past. because he was in charge of this really in charge of central american development and stabilization, during the obama administration. and what he didn't impose the war on drugs model of putting the armed forces in the streets for public security tasks impose kind of the ican nomic model based on foreign investment. and the construction of

these big mega projects that actually displace indigenous especially indigenous and rural communities. and these are the be in the people who migrate. and so to have a new 4 year for $1000000000.00 program, that repeats those in the same errors is somewhat inconceivable. marco, how does security factor into dealing with the root causes of migration? the u. s. s. spent $3300000000.00 since 2007, assisting security forces with fighting criminal organizations and drug cartels in mexico under what's known as the medi the initiative. but since that time, 150000 people have been killed due to organized criminal violence. the big number more when you factor in disappearances in depth of migrants. where's the money actually going? well, these programs are committed initiative and all they're gonna do us has shined with, with mexican central america proving to fail because minutes arising country where

there is no justice or access to justice or, or the rule of law it's, it's just creating much more inadequate conditions for the grow of violence, and so what we need to see, it's an agreement that not only includes the ground investment, but to commitment from the us to control the flow of us dance. we need the us more invested in respecting that people's wheel when it comes to democratic elections. and when it comes to, you know, freedoms and, and, and right for self determination. so there is no investment in, in, in, you know, in the economy or in security that it's going to be fruitful. be it as long as, as the u. s. is not supporting and respecting what our communities, what families and communities are. we're aging our than siding for their own future . and as long as u. s. guns continue to flow and traffic it into their countries. marco,

we've seen restrictive us border policies for decades, but president on the basement where lopez open the door, also known as anglo a promise. he would not be doing what he called the u. s. is dirty work. when it comes to addressing migration ammo, ran on a progressive platform, specifically saying he would transform mexico by routing out corruption, welcoming migrants and moving away from a neo liberal economic model. but did you expect that this pivot would look the way it did that he'd respond to migration the weather? yes. well, no, not at all. i mean, in the beginning it was, it was sold to the mexican population that mexico had to accept the n p. p. protocols because while we're on the threat of economic sanctions, but, but after that, the mexican government has use this anti constitutional any legal program acts and to use migrants as

a bargaining chips to advance better economic agreement. and so these kind of negotiations represent, not only will it's extension of the trauma and narrative and strengthening of the trumps anti immigrant narrative to mexico and central america. but in hundreds of thousands of lives at risk that is not progressive at all lower in your estimation . what could alleviate some of the hardships that migrants are facing in terms of the politics of the policies? specifically the, the m p. p, the my, the migration protection protocols are ironically named by trump must be eliminated in so logical and it's cruel. title $42.00 in the united states, which is blocking migrants from even going into request asylum on a trip on a health basis that has been disproven by health officials must be eliminated as well. there must be humane asylum processes in both countries that are efficient.

that don't create these gigantic backlogs, leaving people with no options for survival and often forcing them to return to countries that are dangerous. there must be educational programs in both countries that begin to tell people, migrants are good for the economy. migration is not a threat. we're not talking about criminals, we are talking about families. so all these problems are, are very poor problems, but they're not fixable. they're actually relatively easy with a b or in taishan of public policy. laura marco, thank you so much for joining me and up front. thank you for the conversation. thank you. all right, that is our show upfront. we'll be back next to the from the al jazeera london broker center to people in thoughtful conversation with

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