when the russian military arrives 70 year old laval as relatives on the peninsula, she hasn't seen them for 6 years. it is latina cooked over the library after a year as a war can separate a child from its mother. it can be so difficult to cross to crimea, the young cat, jobless on this side, because he can't work at the plant anymore. my deceased husband was there, my son worked there, we could afford neath and decent father. all that changed when the crimea was closed. the criminal denies it's planning to invade the ukrainian mainland, but securing water for crime is estimated to point 4000000 people. the majority of whom are russian means that may change. charl stratford al jazeera calon shook sudden ukraine. ah,

don't forget check of the top stories here. this our, the world health organization says the coven, 19 amok on variant is spreading faster than any other strain. it's warning. there'll be no end to the pandemic. if wealthy countries of a vaccine boosters on millions still wait for 1st dose, $77.00 countries have no reported cases of army kron. and the reality is that army cronies probably in most countries, even if it hasn't been detected yet. all micron is spreading at a rate we have not seen with any previous variant. we're concerned that people are dismissing army chron micron as mild. surely, we have len, bye, and now that we underestimate this virus at our peril, even if or micron does cause less cbs, this is the sheer number of cases could whiteness again over when i'm prepared.

health systems, british m. p. 's approved new restrictions in england to curb the spread of coven 19, but has been considerable opposition. 98 m. p. 's from prime minister boris johnson's own party voted against it. face coverings will be compulsory and most indoor settings, and they'll be changes to self isolation rules. the un security council has met to discuss progress on salvage in the 2015 iran nuclear deal. western ambassadors say the situation is grave and iran's nuclear program. more advanced than ever, iran wants assurances, but sanction lifted allegations of sophistic bosses that a candle factory in the us state of kentucky threatened to fire off if they left. the building of the tornadoes. storm approached, management denies the claims, at least 8 people were killed when the building was flattened on friday, kentucky governor and she says, a workplace safety review of the death will now be conducted. well, those are the headlines. the news continues here now to 0 off the inside story

stage, and thanks for watching me. ah ah, i can, you have a defense strategy. i've been more calls for the need for your life in the military . our can the europeans survive without in april and the united states. this is inside story. ah, ah, hello, welcome to the program i'm hasn't seen the idea of a common defense has long been debated among european leaders. the block has

historically relied on the nato alliance and the united states for military action . but after the taliban took over afghanistan this year and the mass evacuations, the followed questions arose about the european union's ability to drive its own defense policy. on monday, the hungarian prime minister was the latest leader to call for a common defense force in europe. he was holding talk with the french president during the summit of east european leaders. mean look at that so that you call has aren't got. first we both lover countries. second, we both work for strengthening europe. and finally, we will, i think, agree on the fact that europe needs strategic autonomy. there are 3 notions we see fitting under strategic autonomy. i will share this with the president. we believe there is no autonomy without a european defense industry. we believe there is no autonomy without our own nuclear energy capabilities. and there is no autonomy without self sufficiency. in agriculture, you commission president ursula vaughan delay and had also highlighted the need for

the block to step up its military capabilities in order to be able to confront security threats and global crisis. or european union is a unique security provider. there will be mission where nato, all the, your united nations will not be present. but where you are should be. you can have the most advanced forces in the world. but if you never prepared to use them of what use are they? what us has helped us back until now is not just a shortfall of capacity. it is the lack of political will. and let's take a closer look at how much you government spend on defense. a recent european defense agency report showed the block spent a record 225000000000 dollars last year, a 5 percent increase on 2019. but there was a fall in joint investment. the continent spent just 11 percent of the total

equipment purchases in cooperation with other u government. despite the lack of cooperation, the block still plans a joint military force of up to 5000 troops by 2025 to deploy during emergencies. the. let's bring in, i guess. now talk more about this in washington d. c. we have thorsten bennett, he is a co founder and director of the global public policy institute in berlin in brussels . theresa fallon, a director of the center for russia, europe, asia studies. and joining us from oslo, glen deason, professor of international relations at the university of south eastern norway. good to have your witness dawson bennett. if i could start this by asking, does a european defense force make sense strategically? yes, sir, thanks for having me. as son, of course, it makes teach,

teach extend the in the medium term. the question is, how to make it the reality and what realistic next steps are. there's a lot of political talk about european strategic autonomy about europeans teaching sovereignty. even gary and prime minister are bon kind of pretended he's a great advocate of this and fully aligned with president the my call that he's all in favor of strengthen europe. whereas on the rule of law and other issues, prime is there or bon undermines. ready undermine europe, or underline said it's not just the question of capabilities or capacity, but the political well, that's true. we need the political world to, to really up our game. europe does spend quite a bit on defense, but it needs to kind of pool and share and to get out of this national parochialism of national defense industries and really work to europe toward

a europe wide defense industry. strengthening at the innovation base and the really work toward that. and i think then this direction could, could become a reality. but the important thing is not to talk just about this, the unrealistic goals for the time, for, for the time being. but to really talk about concrete steps to invest in concrete, the capabilities as, as europe, teresa found, what do you see as the motivation for your defense force? well, we see with the crohn, he will be having to eat rotating, counsel presidency. in addition to that, he's running for office in france, so he's really pushing the strategic autonomy narrative. this is something that he has been long known to to profess, he mentioned about 2 years ago that nato was brain dead. france has often been seen

as a real pushing the strategic on a ton me narrative, but there are 2 ways to look at this. one could be that you're that is stronger, that does more burden sharing will be actually more useful to nato. so for the last 30 years, there's been kind of a night since 989. this idea that there's a kind of a peace dividend. so there, as the you mentioned early, there's been so much money spent, but hasn't really been used wisely. and what about capacities? there's a big issues in gaps in logistics, and even basic communications among the member states, let alone inside nato. so i think that strengthening europe and having us, strengthened pillar within nato, would actually be, excuse me, beneficial, especially since we're not only facing russia anymore. we're facing russia, china, iran, south korea. and so i think that the europeans need to be far more active and use their funding more carefully. we've talked about battle groups or some mentioned

those, and you know, they have never been used. so there's a lack of political will. and there's a sense that many times that europeans like to arbitrage tensions between the u. s . and china, for example, to their benefit. so we need to have everyone on the same page. and i think that with the recent democracy summit that by didn't help, i think he's trying to get everyone involved. and i should note that oregon was not invited to this. and it's interesting that micron reached out to him at the reason busy grad summit held there. so let's see how things turn out glen. these in are we mentioned in the sat there about the how the, the rapid lapse of the, the government in, in cobble and the takeover that the taliban in august raised questions about the european union's ability to drive its own defense policy. do you think that's the only thing that's, that's driving this though? i know, i think it will. i think there's a lot of a both in international changes. so unless internal,

so obviously a series of allan point out us went on many occasions. the u. s. is in the relative decline, those becoming less reliable so. so that's something that medical also echoed saying that, you know, europe has to be able to care. it's take care of itself. the motor lied too much on the u. s. however, the focus they've been in the areas they want to develop those suggest in terms of defense, nuclear and energy agriculture, it suggests that, well, the defense is obviously an initiative to become less reliance on nato, which means to have more independence from united states. the focus on the nuclear energy is obviously to have arrested, less reliance on russia and, and, and this, it fits within what you have to find a strategic economy, which is that you should have more influenced by the less dependent on others. now i would also add that this also has an implication for the internal dynamics of that you, because it's obvious that this is a french proposal,

but it's that the ease lead with germany and france at the center. although frances, obviously the weaker part s germany economic center, however, an e u, that base it's strategic economy and more on common defense and nuclear energy obviously shifts the power more towards france, putting it more in the center of the u, as opposed to only germany. so i think it has, this is an initiative you have to re position that use place in the world, but also reorganized at the power structures within the you itself, the post. and then if i come back to you on this, we heard the lavonne delay and the commission president saying that there needs to be more of a political will to do this. and i know you touched on this in your earlier answer . but where, where does that political will come from? does it come from france and germany, or does it come from elsewhere in the european union? what, what form does that political will take? i think it needs took the large members they need to lead by example. we talked

about a coffee and a more unified, strong as a stronger european defense industry. if the smaller countries get the impression that this only means that their companies will be swallowed by german or french companies, that's not a very sustainable model. so the german and germany and france need to be by example make offers to also smaller, smaller countries. also in, in terms of golding building capabilities in terms that are complimentary. not every country needs need to have every type of capability of the larger countries need to. first of all, invest credibly invest in their own military capabilities and then make offers to this to the smaller countries on, on the word to cooperate the. and so i think the real

burden is on, on the larger, more, more economically, politically stronger member states to really need by example. and saw that smaller countries don't have the impression that for example, president macross talk about your european sovereignty is mostly about about friends from and less so about europe. teresa found, we had the hungarian president, victor alba, and talk about what he, what he said was strategical tanami when he was referring to this european defense force. what exactly does that mean and do europe and the united states have different definitions of that? it hadn't exactly, there are different definitions. i tend to the conference ones here in brussels. people are flown in from all over europe to attend to special thing, conference and strategic autonomy. and after one full day, we are waiting for better. you got more green need to show. she was late,

so i turned to my left and i asked the german next to me, do you know? so do you know, a strategic autonomy mean zone? they said, nope, and i turned to the right and i asked the french person sitting next to me and he said no. so the idea of strategic autonomy is very ambiguous. i would say the friends have a view of it as we've been discussing, but i would say other member states, especially those in the baltics, are very concerned about the strategic autonomy narrative. i almost have people coming to blows at this conference about strategic autonomy because those who are closest to raso feel actually the most worrisome about these threats and fear that maybe france would not really come to, to there to help them in case there was any sort of invasion. so i think that it's not lost on the european audience that my crone who is going to be as of january 1st having you counsel rotating presidency. he's trying to get the message across to the central eastern europeans. they had

a busy grant event. take place there that he's there, man, and because there is a great deal skepticism from those members. so with the eve of 27, you members states, some of them are neutral, but those in central eastern europe are very dubious about friends having this type of separate identity outside of nato. they're very pro nato. so i think that he was trying to build a bridge towards them and i think that this is a huge problem because you have different french leaders and natives been around for 70 years. so i think that there are habits of corporation. yes, it needs to be fine tuned. it needs to be improved, but there's a huge other areas that it would be difficult for the europeans to replace. for example, cyber as well as space. all of these issues, i mean, nato has these capacity. so i think a more useful europe would be better overall. but we also see, you know, it's not like china's far away. as many europeans tend to think. we're seeing china penetrating,

you're far more through daily cyber attacks. also through the arctic we have rasa obviously rattling tapers outside of the ukrainian border. so i think that europe has a lot to think about. plus, in addition to that, we have issues, intentions and bosnia herzegovina and the whole balkans is in a difficult situation. so i think you're really has to get very serious about this . and of course, to pick up on a previous point. microns going to push the nato a nuclear aspect. because this is also a problem in the franco german engine because the green party, which is now part of the coalition government, is not so keen on nuclear. and they will not, it is unlikely that they are going to see and as a sustainable resource, which a problem wants to have it identify that. so for the screen strategy of the you, it's unclear at this moment if nuclear will be considered a agreeing type of fuel. so i think that there are problems already. the new

coalition government in germany is only been empower week, but we see already cracks in the relationship between france and germany. when these and what would a european defense force look like to you? well, it would probably be somewhat weak in order to said that the french are a leader with the one who wants to follow them. and i think that's a quite a good description i saw and also agree that there are a lot of the eastern european countries would be hesitant to pursue this. a strategic upon me simply because it means getting more independence from the united states. which means that we can nato, and a lot of them have put that in most of the well hedge there. well, bit most of the security on there, nato membership. but again, it's, this is part of the problem in europe. it's becoming very, very divided in terms of interest. so i think there for many didn't view that nato is part of the problem. i mean, a,

every single pan european security and our security agreement we had from the helsinki courts to 95 to the charter, piracy in 1092. the establishment of the boys see how this concept of invisible security at its center. now, nato expansionism has effectively violated the oldest principles of individuals with security, which has been the foundation of underpin security. and as a result, we're having about a collapse of, of a pioneer p in security architecture, which is why we're having this conflicts with russia now for the benefit of having more of a, you are, me, would be, it is less threatening to russia, given that nato is deemed to be the main threat to russia and with a reduced role for nato. it could, it could alleviate or reduce some of the tensions in europe. but that being said, that the army on its own would be somewhat it wouldn't be very effective given the it's do not estates, role carrying most of the older brunt or is the main. i'm

a member of nato. so i'm, it would be a very different european secured architecture, in my opinion, it would be yes, less need for military given that the relations with russia would be much better, but obviously it would also be a much weaker and less efficient military. well, let's talk a little bit more about this relationship with with, with nato. thorsten benner is there a risk that at the european defense force might undermine nato? what sort of role would it play this different to, to that organization? because of course, there are a lot of countries, there is a lot of overlap. there isn't and terms of member countries that are already part of nato. exactly, exactly. it. there is no contradiction between the stronger european capabilities and a strong nato. as long as the u. s want,

wants that i think it's very easy to imagine you're building up more capabilities and making them useful within, within nato, by carrying more of its own way in terms of deterring russian aggression and not just relying on on the u. s. for this. so as long as nato is viable, and as long as the u. s. is able and willing to underwrite the european security more capabilities will also make on the european part will make the nato stronger. so that's not at all. busy the contradiction and at the same time as a hedge against the possible future in which the us no longer the under right european security and to a very clear future in which the u. s. is much more, much more focused on the in the pacific theater. so that europe needs to take care of relations in its neighborhood, especially also with russia by itself. n. glenn has

a very funny reading of history and the relations with russia where europe and the u. s. are the only culprits were a shiny, happy future with the kremlin would be in the, in the cards. if we only disarm to and dissolve the nato, i think history tells, tells a very different different story. of course we need to take the crime than on threat perceptions seriously. but this is very funny. strange and peculiar reading of history that, that you offered glen doesn't pass muster, or let's get glens response to that. yes, no, i didn't say that nato has to be disbanded. i think that nato was quite effective when it did very little that he said throughout the cold war it was effectively a power promoting the status quo that is, plus a defensive alliance. seeking to deter the soviet union after the cold war,

nato has become prohibitionist power. that is, it's now expanding its invading other countries without un mandates. so under this, the under this new nato, the revision is natal. i think it's very much the same blessing and it's the main source of tensions and conflict in europe and this divisions in europe, dividing lines is also making europe as a continent less than less relevant. now, if nato would go back to its original mission to be a status called power, and it's military interventionism and this expansion is miss it again, the source of stability in europe. however, this is kind of what they're trying to negotiate between moscow in washington. but that's very different from saying that nato dismantles theresa fallon nano is if they don't like, why just if nato were the, the only problem. why did president put in choose to invade the crimea

after ukraine find the corporation deal with the european union? was not natal, that was the problem in that case, there was a deal with the european union's well, it's set to launch extend customers for la tactics. it, it can see what's coming down the road. i'm in the nato started with expanding to a couple of countries now it just keeps expanding. and obviously the u. s. s. as a state that it's intention of dragging ukraine into nato, even when only a small minority wanted to be part of nato. and furthermore, didn't simply sign an agreement with you. there were, there was a qu, backed by balsa, united states, and that you. and because of this, the russians reacted as a status quo. a route built by, by claimed, by holding on to its naval base in crimea. so again, if nato had not had the worst on the back, the crew in ukraine and nato hadn't threatened to expand into ukraine. russia would never have taken, but colonel or so yeah, i want,

i want to give what's probably going to be lost. what on this to that theresa fallon? go ahead. well, i think it's always important to try to understand how the russians see the world. it's very different from most other people. i think that status quo, i mean seizing crimea, and over 14000 people have died in the dunbar. so the idea that nato is changing the status quo. i think the evidence is there on the ground. and as we see moscow rattling sabres outside of ukraine, it's extremely worrisome and they're using that as a way to try to change the agreement. we've seen with the agreement was signed. it's codified that nato could expand. so it's a real reading of history. it's a change of tone, and i think that the countries that have joined the un nato, for example, the baltics are very glad that they have because they're watching what russia is doing, nibbling away ukraine, threatening it. what happened in georgia, possibly what might happen in moldova. i think that these are all worrying signs

for these countries, and that's why they are want to see nato. of course, i think damage by being praised when put inside he supports or law said that he really supports like the you having this type of military. it kind of shows that they want to get rid of nato, and they realize that the would be very weak and disorganized, and it would be very variable depending on who is in the office and who would be willing to invest. and it would take a very long time. i mean, there's been, although there's been a lot of money spent, there's really a lack of capacity. so i think that that would be put in your dream to have you do this. so i think that clever minds even micron has not to down a bit in his speech last week, and i think there are more realistic they do understand that it's not just burden sharing it's burden. shutting the u. s. wants to be more active. thank you. so much ok, thank you on that. so we will have to leave it. we are unfortunately at a time

a thank you to all 3 of you for taking part thorsten benner, theresa fallon and glen these and thanks very much for being on. and so i story and thank you, as always watching, remember, you can see this program again any time just go to our website edges in a dot com. and for further discussion, you can go to our facebook page, facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside store. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle. there is a j inside story for me. hm. see, get and hope in here. bye for now. ah, ah.

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