demik, this is the city's main artery paseo de la reformer, and this is its hall. this is the most iconic monument, a mexico, the angel of independence. and it's a mock of how important the nazi where the flower is. that there is a blanket of them all around the foot of the start to and this is where the produced in the greenhouse is of the so chimerical district on the outskirts of the city. perhaps it was inevitable. the egg of florida is that say good flowers in english is dedicated his life to them from may when their 1st planted, his livelihood rests on these plants. doing well, recommend this healing good is practically, it's a year's income. a lot of families depend on this more than one half 1000 families just in such a mil coker for more, and they're hoping for big bounce in sales as met. screw continues to open up in christmas comes john homan out, does it make screw city? ah,

hello again. the headlines on al jazeera, the micron variance is driving record current virus cases in many countries around the world. on the african continent, they del times on the con, variance have driven infections up. i nearly 83 percent and france is banned all on essential travel from the u. k. and tasha butler has this update from paris on not meeting a few or p and leaders. the french government's been watching the situation in the u. k. a very closely indeed, and they've decided to impose restrictions effectively banning non essential travel between the u. k. and frogs, effective from saturday and french citizens and residents will be able to return to france. but anyone having to travel in this period of time from saturday onwards, we'll have to have p c. all tests will departure arrival. they will have to self isolate the french government. it says that it is particularly concerned of course,

about trying to stop the spread of the oma kron variance rescue operations are underway and parts of the philippines that have been hit by one of the strongest storms in the world. this year. official say about 10000 villages or in the path of the typhoon. a u. s. missionary group has confirmed a release if it's american and canadian missionaries cabinets in haiti, they were abducted just outside the capital porto prince. in october, several of the hostages were released in recent reached the associated press of calling on the if you open government immediately release of freelance video journalist detained 2 weeks ago, a mere amman kiara was arrested in the capital. i have about accused of promoting terrorism. the a p says the allegations are baseless. those are the headlines inside story is coming up next right here. and i'll just terrible, i ah, ah

ah, ah, tensions of the west push russia and china closer together. their lead is hail, what they call a model of cooperation from the 21st century for the us and its allies is suspicious. so is this sort of a new cold war for global leadership? this is inside store. ah . hello or if the program i'm wrong, con the u. s. europe and their allies in the west often portray russia and china is threats to global peace. they cite examples including russia's troop build up along

the border with ukraine. and chinese crackdown on human rights in hong kong and sion yang but moscow and beijing see things differently. they accused the west of destabilizing their countries by imposing sanctions and interfering in their domestic affairs. presidents, she's in pain and bloody may. putin reinforced that point in a virtual summit on wednesday. they pledge to corporate on trade and security and to respect each other's interests. katrina, you set up our discussion from beijing. it is, it is a virtual summit and show of solidarity the presidents of china and russia. she didn't ping and vladimir putin spoke for more than an hour on wednesday, hailing their close ties. voltaire, the wall has undergone unprecedented changes and a pandemic in the last entry sign a rotten relations. how we do the terse, a verse storms as low as the deep historical traditions of friendship and a mutual understanding have allowed us to take our relations to the next breakthrough level. trade between china and russia exceeded 115000000000 dollars

this year. a new high, the leaders pledge to increase corporation on energy paging already relies on moscow from much of its minerals, oil, and natural gas plants underway for nuclear power stations. they're also coordinating on efforts to further space exploration and scientific innovation. chinese analysts say the relationship is now stronger than it's ever been. they'll milan was outdoor, that the 2 countries support each other in their core interests. for example, when it comes to china's core interests, those are territorial, integrity and sovereignty development and security. that the meeting comes as both nation's face mounting criticism for their policies at home and abroad. russia for a mass build up of troops on its border with ukraine, and china for increasing military activity near taiwan. a self, rhode island dating claims as its own common interests as well as color grievances

have brought china and russia closer together. both face rising tensions with the u . s. and its allies, as well as accusations of human rights abuses and birth hadn't to v support each other on the international stage. officials in washington have under schooled a growing military threat from birth, russia, and china putin. and she, you say they'll work more closely when it comes to security. they have conducted several joint exercises this year. moscow provides bating advanced weaponry, including fighter jets and miss our defense systems. the u. s. is now completely focused on great power competition. after they left afghanistan, so there is a short window of opportunity. i think that both moscow amazing see before the u. s . military kind of gears up for this great power competition. and they are trying to explain that the leaders are known to share a good personal bond. several countries have declared diplomatic boycotts of dating 2022 winter olympics. but vladimir putin has confirmed his attendance. the only

major leader to do so. so far. katrina, you are does irritating. ah, let's bring our guests at joining us from oslo. glenn decent professor of international relations at the university of se, norway and an editor at russia in global affairs from new york. david l. phillips, director of the program on peace building and rights at columbia university. and from london, steve sang director of the china institute at so us university of london a warm welcome to you all. let's begin with steve sang in london. steve, this isn't quite a declaration of a new cold war, but it is an unprecedented declaration of a cooperative agreement between russia and china. what's that based on? well, it is based on a lot of come and interest attached it to countries share. at the moment, the share tension with the united states,

and they want to make sure that they will prevailed and not the united states. they share a common objective of making the world safe for authors, terrorism, so dead that well will be safe for putin and for she in pain. they also shared the issue of you, in the case of russia, ambitions over u cranes. in the case of china ambitions over taiwan. so there's a lot for them to work together. and we should also not forget that she jumping age, reviving marxism leninism as the, the old e, the older g in china, which makes him much more better disposed to former soviet countries that are we turnings to author. ready a terrorism, russia is one of them in of low. sorry, glen. what is the right,

what were the russians getting out of this? all the getting out there what, what this is samantha had demonic partners. so someone to help them develop some alternatives so. so, so the partnership kind of expands in many areas they seek to integrate their economy is going to coordinate to political positions and, and also has some degree on a military corporation. now, obviously, the main thing russia would guess from this is what they never had before. because they were never, well invited in to the west or be part of europe after the cold war. so now they effectively found an alternative, instead of knocking on the door for europe for another 30 years. so, so this is the, the main, the main thing to need, but then it has 2 components. one of it, and it's, it's genuine interest. so they both have an interest incorporating, but also a huge component of this is also of course to try to nakeila themselves from us pressure, both military and economic. so,

so it's already been seen since the global financial crisis. both china and russia believe that the current position of us is untenable, so you need them alternative us as the us trade balance keeps going down, it's a bit spirals out of control. it's inflation now also seems to be quite enduring. so i think for this reason they've been seeking an alternative. now the fact that the u. s. also uses economics instruments, our us a weapon against russia, china only intensifies this need to corporate further and again, insulate themselves from what the american economic worship. david phillips and develops rather in new york, or you heard what both i guess how to say this is a great deal for both of those countries. now, separately, the u. s. was able to exert. certainly some influence over russia. china, perhaps less so. but here we are now 2 countries getting together to very big countries getting together what's, what's the united states position?

hey, can i do anything? what color, when it is an axis of tyranny. these are 2 countries that ignore the rules based international order that evolves during the 20th century. they aggress against sovereign states. in this case, russia is threatening ukraine and china. it's threatening. i want to other countries in the south and east trying to put david if you're talking about a threatening serenity of different countries. i mean the war in iraq was illegal. that was by who it was the americans. so let's be very, you will have a good day. i thought we're going to be talking about rio, but i will. but why would it be? want to be said, like, just tell her, talk to me about what the american position is for the united states invaded occupied iraq, you legally detriment of the iraqi people have no argument with that. what we're

talking about today is aggression by russia in china, not only against sovereign states, but also domestic, ethnic, cleansing of muslims, weaker and sin, john rushers, denial of freedom and expression. it's a fascination of political opponents. so the current challenge. so the world order isn't in iraq, it's with china and russia, ignoring the international rules based order and aggressive against neighbors and their own citizens. therein lies the great challenge of our attention. so if you use the word authoritative, authoritarian regimes, david phillips has used the word tyrannical or tyranny regimes. what is it? what is this coming together? well, i think if we are looking at china, it is not my wish to return to some to day. it is

a new form of very, very strong and new fact, authoritarianism that uses hbo technologies to give it near totally terry and control, but not the old fashioned to does it caring control. it has systematic abuse of human rights. so it is a very problematic government in that sense, but i don't think we should be confused by using any terms that would describe china as if it were like the maoist era or as i said we were in the southern is iraq, isn't glen, you were shaking it had furiously there it was, david phillips was saying, what's your disagreement? well, not furiously, but i think if the misrepresentation prefers 1st on the china side, one is not a foreign country. the whole, the whole format which china us that's agreed on for more than 40 years. and as the

one china policy. and it's the us was now acting as the emission is power seeking to chip away. at the one china policy by pushing taiwan towards secession. and this is what, this is what the chinese are reacting on saying that they will intervene if they go down. and the same is true in here in europe, nato that has been expanding towards the ukraine. and russia has had only intervene if the proxy regime in the us, which it can only do with support of the united states. so i think it's the present if some sort of partnership about is about the value of some kind of a commitment to authoritarianism. i think that's a very unfair representation. however, i would agree that the book of propose what they get from new york or sort of the rules based international order. because at both china and russia and says that the international law has to come 1st in accordance with with you and charter. now the

rules based international order is a bit of an william concept. it doesn't actually include any rules. it's just, you know, the u. s. can insert, interfere in domestic affairs, it can government, they can embed as long as it's legitimize under democracy promotion and human rights. so being that this us has to stick to international law. so on this course, i do agree, david phillips, is there an opportunity here for the west, for america to re tool its way of thinking about russia and china? is there an opportunity we live in a multi polar world? we have to recognize that power is diffuse. russia and china do have legitimate national interest. those interests are served through aggression and through domestic human rights use. when we speak about international law, we also think about the universal declaration of human rights. we think about

international humanitarian law. a great struggle that we face today is between the rights of states and the rights of people in those states to realize their full potential. clearly, china and russia are champions of sovereignty and they put states right ahead of the rights of individuals. is that really the multi polar world that we want to listen is a formula for development, peace and security. those kinds of abuses will ultimately backfire. and d, stabilize russia in china, in the u. s. should support victims by expressing solidarity and developing policies that push back against here. but david, when you're talking about pushing back, you sound a little bit like can, can you, you know, wanting to push back and tight. we'll talking russia in china here. we're talking to the very big countries whom the u. s. has had to tense relationship with simply because it con as easily influencing as say for example,

can your opinion the u. k. so when you say pushed back, what are the tools to push back with? there are many true at disposal of the us and the international community, including sanctions against individuals, tray restriction, we have the global magnetic which imposes economic and travel sanctions on corruption and human rights abusers. so there are international rules that allow opposition to tyranny. the us needs to play by those rules. it shouldn't rollover and allow charity to prevail. it's shared push back and make sure that tyranny does not win the day. that rights and freedoms do prevail. stay saying in london, whenever there's been sanctions put in place against china, whenever the, the international tools that david l phillips is talking about being put in place against china, often china has just run and said,

we are too big. this is not going to affect us that now even bigger with this corporate agreement with russia. well, they use that power responsibility. will they now have a law sympathetic to the international community? well, china will push that and chime that will push for its own way. i think when the chinese told me about an intentional rules and orders, they would like it to be the chinese rules and chinese order. and they basically saw that's what the americans told me about the international will base or the us americans or the american will. so days with quite by to replace it by their own versions of it. so the more powerful they are, the more they were to. so i think if i may, i mean what the united states really need to be thinking about is not just push back in that old fashioned cold war way. we are in a new world. we are dealing with different kinds of competition between china and

russia on the one side and the u. s. and other democracies on the other side is a beauty contest, democracy. we will have to prove to the rest of the world that democracies asked deal more beautiful than what the chinese and the russians models are able to present to the rest of the world in terms of the effective governance. and in terms of the capacity to deal with the pen that makes which the chinese and the russians will say that the democracies and the americans are not really doing very well with at the moment. glen, this is the same question to you every time the u. s of the west is used sanctions and other international tools against russia. russia has simply hardened its position. now, is it going to be softer because it knows it has much more power under this new agreement, or is it going to get harder? russia, the way it sees it can go into an issue of ukraine as soon as it's essential threat,

if american weapons and they are all into ukraine and others consider on acceptable so they won't. so they're not going to invent any pressure on this area. however, it has to be said that the 1st rule of economic sanctions, if it's enduring too harsh to the one you sanction will simply learn to live without you. and i think that's what you see now with russia and china as well. so, and it was what, this is some, it was about between that and putting a sheet that is this seeking a new economic architecture for the world. and that would have 3 pillars. the 1st is the industry in which they're seeking corporation. now continued cooperation, high tech industries, us to go into the 4th industrial revolution in order not to be their reliance on american digital platforms. and also for the russians, not to be dependent on exporting energy to the europeans, which are becoming less reliable. the 2nd this, the 2nd pillar will be a transportation course. again, the chinese of course, trillions of dollars into this belt enrolled initiative to reorganize the discourse

and russia also more modest but also developing this arc, the core door in partnership with china. and as well as other initiatives, the last would be this financial architecture, which focused a great extent on which means that russia, china should now stop using the u. s. a dollar, they should stop using us control development banks, not using the swiss payment system. so begin to slowly the couple away from this. and i do have that they've been quite successful to some extent for a couple of 2015, 90 percent of all trade between the chinese and russians are in dollars by 2020 useless reduced in half. so down to 46 percent, so i think it is more pressure, more sanctions, us pushes on the russians and the chinese, the more they will simply continue this partnership. because this is an initiative to learn live without to us. since it seems as being so unreliable, then they'll phillips i in, during my research for today's show i was actually speaking to a bunch of people who are in, i mean,

this is just me speaking to people is by no means like scientific but a bunch people in foreign affairs and the term cold wool kept coming up. this is just a new cold war. is that helpful framing for the us? or do we need to say as las steve sang said, actually it's a new world order. feller was mentioned, economic reliance on slaves, labor and the u. s. by products, norway, u. s. corporation by products where slave labor is practiced in production. and this isn't just about the us versus russian china. it's about the west in the european union. and countries believe in human rights and democracy, opposing a tyrannical regimes of russia and china. so the u. s. has joined with you and other countries, pushback multilaterally on the kinds of practices that we see in russia and china. it's a scary world where tyranny and slave labor become routine. it's important that the

west suppose that we can do that diplomatically. we can do that through dialogue and essentially building with russia and china, if they will. but if they don't, and they persist in their ways, then there's clearly going to be a cost to pay for them. the us and the west will also pay. and what does that cost? he's saying is china worried about the cost? no, i don't think china is really to worry about what the americans are pushing at the moment. jiving in china. it has a lisa who is incredibly confident in so any, in the direction of travel which that china is going when can question that and they are good ground to questioned whether the direction of troubleshooting picks. china is the white. one is the good ones, but he is very competent. there he is, right? so he is not so worry about the american push back. he is

a voting resources redirecting all the possibilities of the chinese parties. stay an economy to counter what the americans are doing. so i think the americans really need to be much more imaginative if they are going to win this competition, it is not just a direct confrontation between china and the united states. it is about winning the hearts and minds of the rest of the world. for america to win, it has to show that it is genuine, me better. now, glenn, we're just going to see it. but by the rest of the world, david, i'll bring you in in just a 2nd, but i want to put his point to glen. i mean, you were talking about decoupling of the us dollar, but that's been replaced mainly by the euro and some of the currencies that still the west. so russia still have a debt, as russia still has a debt mechanism with the west, that is going to be a problem. no. well, it's a gradual process, but the dollar has always been the key party but,

but now you're a great when the date when they're reduced their lives and the dollar. it also entailed in creating the use of the euro. and also more and more the use of domestic currency. and obviously that's also the china and russia would like to go to increased use of domestic currencies and therefore not just simply replace the us dollar with the euro. but again, it is a process. i'm not saying it has come a long way over the past 56 years. and i don't like the idea that this is only about the values. i think. i think it's a strongest representation against russia. x live relations with south korea, japan, india, israel. the made, the common denominator is nato, its military block expanding upon its borders and already we are, we are sorry, good, you know, running i was having to do when i come to david phillips, wife heard from all 3 of you is very entrenched positions when it comes to describing the west,

china and russia. describe nat position those saying that your positions, they seem very bullish. do you think? and our last question again, do you think this kind of david, this kind of bullish enough is the right way forward? are fair start with a 1000 road initiative, subordinates, countries, earnings, and with that ignores labor and environmental standards. that's not going to win hearts in mind. and when it comes to nato, it's much more than a security alliance. it's coalition of countries with shared values. you know, he's looking for the stupid russia, but according to the north atlantic charter members have to subscribe the minimal standards of human rights and democracy. that's why turkey in hungary are in trouble with just very, very configuring out on but i do need to come to the other guests. so steve, do you think this bullish us is helpful? i think the bullish on all sides. it gets into more of the concentration of it saying, i think we need to move beyond best to find ways forward. that would be more beneficial

for the whole. well, not just picking it up, stange wrench on position, a glen very quickly. g thing is bullish. this is helpful. no, i think everyone needs to take a step back and find some ways some your corporate or arrangements about the death of that. thank you. this is off towards the economic or actual war. so now i want to thank all our guests, sag glen dice, and david phillips and steve sang, and i want to thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website out, is there a dot com and for further discussion, go to a facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. and you can also join the conversation on twitter. we are at a j inside story. for me, i'm wrong on the whole team head my for now. ah

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