tattoos themselves remain very popular, especially for young people like cassius, back at the crowds or to shop. he's having a favorite cartoon character inked onto his arm for the moment snoopy will be there in just black and white. but casio says he's got plans for more colourful tattoos. some day soon, dawn, it came, al jazeera, berlin. ah, hello, you're watching al jazeera, these are the stories we're following. this. our authorities in kazakhstan, say they've detained the former national security chief on suspicion of treason. after days of violent protests that cassock president has told russia's lead generation is stabilizing, but that's what he described as attacks were ongoing. robin forest walker explains the significance of the national security chase dismissal. his departure today

really cements this idea that cousin jo month. so kind of the president is, is purging the government, the system, the elite, of all those figures who own allegiance to the for the president? no. so 10 other by that it's really quite an extraordinary picture. and it difficult to explain in a nick, but inside an enigma why this would, would have happened. but this really explains the dog nature of cause at politics, internal politics. at least 56 people have reportedly been killed in an air strike in ethiopia, northern to grier age, and the strike hit a camp for the internally displaced in the town of d. d bits near the ever try and border. the attack comes as he s e d open government announced it was releasing a number of high profile political prisoners, including members of the 2 grind rebel forces. at least 22 people have been killed in northern pakistan after being stranded in their cars in a snow storm. many had ignored warnings advising them not to go outside. the co

documents have revealed penis found that jock of each tested positive code 19 last month. his lawyer said, that's why he had a vaccine exemption to enter stella to play the grand slam later this month is always a trying to a pew. he's people taishan. india has recorded more than 140000 new daily cove at 19 cases. and he's 7 months high, it's capital, new jelly is among the worst hit region and he's under curfew. and south african president 0 rema poses, says he's governing african national congress hardy needs to be renewed and revealed. he's been addressing a celebration of the phase 100 camp anniversary. several issues continue to tarnish the parties image including allegations of corruption. those are the headlines i'm emily angland states you now for the string one half scottish and half leslie's so diversity is really important to me and i'll da 0 is the most diverse place i've

ever worked since we have so many different nationalities and this is ease brought together in this one use organization and this diversity of perspective is reflected in our coverage, giving a more accurate representation of the world we report on and that's a key strength of alpha 0 i i and for me, ok to day on the stream. could it, blocking out the sun, actually help reduce the temperature down here on earth? let me show you what i mean. to instance, you could have material pumped into, asked stratosphere that material could reflect the sun's rays or solar energy all the way back to the sun. meaning that we down here a cat color that is a very basic wooden menchie understanding of solar geo engineering. there are pros,

there are cons, though, unknowns and unknowns. there is a debate. let's take a look. should we be pursuing sola geo engineering? the answer is that we just don't know. what we do know is that the impacts of climate change are serious and getting worse, and that we're not doing all we need to do to address the climate crisis. so would you engineering might be a useful part of the portfolio of responses, but it also entails a wide range of poorly understood risks. a well designed research program can help us understand those ris and whether or not solar g o engineering deserves the spot . in the portfolio of climate change responses, solar, you engineering is a really dangerous idea. it is messing with the global climate system. it is basically just about suppressing some of the symptoms of climate change. it is not doing anything about the root causes and it comes with tremendous risks for global

communities and ecosystems. so instead of putting on high risk techno fixes what we're really should be doing as get out of fossil fuels, that means co and gas and not be expanding any of that infrastructure. and there's really no way we can do wednesday our way out of the climate crisis. some of i guess and nodding their head, some of i guess is shaking their heads. let the debate vicki. hello, david. hello, angela kelly. really nice to have you on the stream, david, we introduce yourself to international audience. i'm david keith and professor at harvard in public policy and also much neary. i worked on this topic, i worked on climate for about 30 years. nice to have a hello angela, telephone. you all. what you do? hi, be mine and thank you for me for having me on the show. my name is angela michelman . i'm and i know you want to see the new delhi in there. i haven't done the local engineering,

my interest in the space from abortion that's interested in climate change and the, the sort of solutions that we are looking at to the plan, which is great to have you and kelly, please introduce yourself. i international audience are watching right now. hi sammy, it's good to be here. my name is kelly wander. i'm the executive director of a 3 year old nonprofit organization called silver lining. and our focus and silver lining is near term climate risk. so we drive our research, we work with governance stakeholders, numbers of the public, use organizations to look at expanding our portfolios options to address climate risk in the next 30 to 40 years where we may have some gaps that might not be addressed in other ways. thank you, kelly. thank you. okay, thank you. david and audience. i know you have thoughts on this. i know you've got opinions and maybe the a couple of things that you want to ask out line now, pos,

guess, jumping to the comment section, and you too can be part of this discussion. the idea kelly and david that solar geo engineering may well be a climate change solution. david, you go 1st. so solution is a loaded word and then picks up exactly on the click critique you heard, which is the idea that it's the source solution. nobody in this debate was remotely sensible things as a solution. i dud just but there are future, but it may be is a way to substantially reduce risks over the next generation in ways that we can achieve by emissions cuts alone. so maybe that the combination of emissions cuts and solar g r sharing could be significantly safer, particularly for the world's most vulnerable than would be emissions cut alone. but no single thing as a solution. even emissions cut alone and our solution cuz we clearly need adaptation. a complicated problem, my climate change has many different things. we need one of which may be vis

technology. hey, one of the things that we found as we were putting the show together, the stream so together was trying to find out all the different ways that maybe you could reflect off the sun, the sun's radiation, the energy. so you can cool at climate if that was possible. i'm looking here on my laptop at marine cow brightening science visibility and applying for research. can you tell us what marine cow brightening is certainly, and i appreciate your characterization. we don't tend to refer to these techniques of blocking the sun, but rather increasing the reflection of sunlight. so relatively modest amount of increase in the reflection of sunlight of clouds or particles. and yeah, monsieur can produce quite a large object in terms of heat energy moving out of your system and m marine prod, brightening the ideas based on in the image that you showed on observations from

things that already happen in the system today. where particles from emissions and natural sources mixed with clouds in ways that make them slightly brighter through the image. here are the streaks that you see in the clouds. those bright streaks are actually created by the emission from ship and globally today. scientists believe that the totality of the particles and emissions, not the particles that produce greenhouse gas, the facts, but those sort of dirty are kind of pollution particles. one of the side effects is that they mixed with clouds in this way. and globally, are, are thought to be creating something of a cooling effect that we don't understand very well. the idea behind the marine corp brightening is to use a cleaner or more benign material. like seesaw, particles from ocean spray and sea water, bright and clouds over the ocean, better particularly susceptible to the effect. and it's thought,

although there's the, sorry, i'm going to be on it. if last me in the bit right, you've lost me. ok. i lost a little bit, so help me get back on track. what do you think this is me if you can hear me thinking now like i am? all right, so if you were explaining what, what thing goes up into the stratosphere to help cool us theoretically what it, what do you, what is going up in it, in marine cloud brightening materials, going into the lower atmosphere. so it's coming up from the surface, right? and in marine club, right, the proposal is it's a salt spring that's generated from sea water ok sprayed over the ocean into low line clouds. and so it brightens patches of these clouds in a way that reflects large amounts of sunlight back to space. ok in

a way that could produce a global cooling effect. thank you for speaking slightly. that does not ha, yeah, the audience are like, way ahead of me. i'm just i think kelly just say angeles and this is, this is fascinating. there's so much research and science going on here. why would you be concerned? so i think the last thing is your latest that you know, we are to get on the spot where we are hurtling towards a climate in which and see climate scientists and 14 ecosystem units. are you aware of that? but the point is that there are 2 cancelled on by the we need to pause, you know, do engineering research. one can say that, you know, we don't know enough about to do engineering and it could potentially be an option that because you are in case of ok me to emergency i. so we need to know more about it. so we need more research the other can, which also consists of a disinfect. and this consists of environmental policy, exports, and also other governments,

such as the united kingdom that has without statement thing that come to the source that is really going to be. so if you feel that need know enough or they need to make the statements that we don't need more. so let us do it in such because it is likely to cause more detriment than benefit to certain sections of the population. so the question do only on followed your engineering, the coaches that maybe to be point in the research where you stop and ask us is when do we know enough to make this call on? where do we need to progress with please touch the point? is that so long? you actually cannot be in the quest to make it a vocal between you shouldn't despite all the think i don't think it is, i think. but here's what i think we know with real confidence. there's an enormous amount of research now over a decade and a half, the suggested the biggest drivers of global kind of risks are peak temperatures. and they're especially drivers for the world's poorest. they kill people. they may

people last economically productive and they make it harder to learn literally. the one thing we know from every single model, no exceptions about solar geo assuring is it would reduce peak temperatures and do it in a way that's pretty uniform. it's not like there's some group assigned as a model that shows that doesn't happen. all model show that would happen. so that's the potential, the only serious paper that looked at the effect of this technology, on se global inequality showed that it would dramatically reduce global income inequality and would likely reduce global death from the waves. now, to be clear, there's a big set of risks and the st. keener this researching this has in a way that i think is wonderful. been often the very 1st to raise those risks from the beginning. but quantitative answers matter. and despite the kind of stuff you heard in the lead in say from the lady from recall, there is not evidence that the risks are really big compared to the benefits. in fact, we now have many sided papers from researchers around the world on many of the key

risks. you shouldn't trust any one scientists. you should trust a group of people that, that, that surrounds the world. and not the we know that each of the rest that we looked at, the air pollution risk from doing this, the ozone risk, etc. they're real. and the community isn't one of the 1st commit to talk about this risk. but they look relatively small compared to the benefits and to me that is the reason to take it seriously. and i think we have to be very careful. but people who live were pretty rich, will far from the equator. kind of dismissing this when they're not the ones who are going to suffer the most very, not coming hill going to so, so i think, i mean, one of the points that they would need is that you know, that these models suggest that our soldiers unit could be beneficial, are certain sections, i mean it could be beneficial, our membership, our, the, my new population on in the future if you want to implement it. but i think it's important to highlight hello that basically the research that's being done in the

so in order to engineering is being down to simulations in climate models, which helps us understand the impact of solar jew engineering on the ot system. so scientists that work on these models have recently also produced up a boy that missed the radius. and so i think these indian monitors and if they're sneaky, highlighted that it gives challenges in determining the impacts of jew engineering on local regional unclaiming conditions. so i mean that i like even with that is the thought that's happening right now. it's not taking into account in order our region is that those so i won't, they're not your lead depend of it that they're not perfectly dependable. susie true, it's the same size, same exactly the same model, just a sec, as, as we use furnished amy impacts of c o 2. so just with when we add c a totally atmosphere which asia climate, we also can predict exactly what will happen locally. we can do it for either it's the same underlying science. you can dismiss the science to suggest solar,

geometry and might be useful and accept the sizes just climate as a big risk. kelly, can i open his conversation up a little bit more because we have people online who or so we'll have some questions and, and some thoughts or i'm just going to go to salient who is on twitter. she says, i'd be interested to know who decides if we go ahead with solo geo engineering or not. the entire world is invested. what if there's a 20 percent chance of causing damage? who gets the vote ok, let's take that chance. ok. so thank you for that question. so that's a terrific question. we believe that this field is a field where scientific assessment is really important. open science that allows the stakeholders from around the world to look at the information is really important. and the governance government engagement is key. so in silver lining, we work with the us science agencies and the u. s. government to help develop a scientific assessment path. and we're hopeful that we work in the un arena as

well to develop scientific assessment path that help stakeholders and government representatives make these decisions in an open and constructive way. the scientific information is critical to that. and i think we disagree with david on the level of certainty that we have around what the fix you see in risks. but that process of driving information so that we can all look at it together is critical. i'm just looking on youtube and ms. rainey is watching on youtube list. thank you for being part of the show today. if we do so, you engineering, how would we force companies to change the harmful practice? my concern is people will keep doing the same harmful things over and over again. they would you touch him if you didn't say it is a climate change solution, but it can how comp, companies will keep doing the wrong things unless the government's forced them to

stop. so we won't get climate action unless we have government action to regulate the use of the atmosphere as a waste time for our carbon. that's what climate activists including me, have on our entire careers for no question. it won't happen automatically. we need, we need people marching the streets, we need government action. that's what's going to change it and nothing about so really are sure and really changes that much one way or the other solar general will provide an excuse, a false excuse. that may be used by some people to try and avoid emissions cuts, but it's wrong, nothing we know about solar geo ensuring changes the fact that we have to cut emissions eventually to net 0 in order to have a stable climate. i'm looking at this image here on my laptop, david, will you talk us through it so that everybody can understand what is going on here and what we're looking at. because we're still in that phase right now where we're looking at theory, but also trying to do some practical research as well. this is part of the practical research david. yeah, this is an example of

a research project called the strength spirit control perturbation experiment. run by my colleague frank, which, where the objective is to understand with a stratosphere balloon experiment, how some aerosol is in the stratosphere cells or just really fine particles that are small up. they don't fall very fast. how they interact with each other, how much they stick together, and how particular interaction happens in a plume. and if one was ever going to do this, actually for real, from aircraft, with much, much larger quantities of material, you would need to understand the details of that direction. so it's more to say this isn't a test whether or not so, or she works or not. it's a incremental step to understand a little bit better. some of the underlying signs i want to bring in a voice. it's important because i think there's a lot of people not quite understanding what is going on here, but the still the research that is happening and then worried about the downside, the negative impact. that what might happen if we change how warm or how cool the

earth is, have a list and have a look. solar engineering as a technology that is now being touted as one of the solutions for the climate crisis. can have many unintended consequences. first to fall, it can alter the regional climate, there might affecting not only the country that is using it or deploying it, but also the countries in the neighborhood. secondly, it has political connotations because it may divide the world into haves and have known that is countries that have access to this technology and the ones that do not have access to it, especially the developing world term lead me have security implications as well. because this technology can be used for doing purposes, then by creating some sort of insecurity in many regions as our whole list of concerns they're coming from. the public is that i'm just rounding angela. you start, can you pick up? is there a, a, a problem with the public being on board with the science is,

is the science is ahead of the public angelie. so i think there is definitely a level of suspicion and fury in the minds of the public. because one is that we all acknowledge that there are a lot of uncertainties at risk associated with solar, jew engineering. and the fact that, you know, people and communities are representatives of these communities that are most by little bit by little bit of the impacts of climate change. they're not nearly at this decision making the big i'm where these are just going to progress. so i mean, not being always the why so hoping you know, not being able to understand what is happening in terms of doing such creates or the sense of jordan. and so k a problematic is that, well, we think it's a really important problem to address. but it does take sophisticated resources to study these questions. and i think there's a misperception that the research is moving quickly to the total level of research

in this area around the world as tiny on. there are a handful of researchers and just single digit $1000000.00 per year all over the world studying. and so we think it's actually quite important that we invest resources where they are in the climate models in the observations, in the tiny experiments that will help us understand these things and drive to make that information available and make that participation that available to people around the world, so for example, we're working with amazon web services to put global climate bottles on the cloud that could look at these questions in a way that would allow researchers in the global south on other parts of the world to study them for themselves. so we think the problem is not advancing the science, but the problem is creating the resources in access so that everyone can share in it and then have a voice around the table as, as to what we're going to do. we have a very serious safety situation,

the current that projection have over 1000000 people on the planet displaced. and so we think this is a way of exploring options to see if we can do better than that. i agree with everything kelly just said, and i think i want to add one more point, which is it's easy to on any topic like this cherry people have opinions in different directions to. he said that we know anything, and we don't know very much about what regular people actually think. there's good evidence from 2 papers that people in more vulnerable climate or climate vulnerable countries are more supportive research on this. so it's true both among climate negotiators, depending on where they came from and it's true in asian countries. if you compare rich and poor, poor countries, you're more supportive. and in general, it appears actually maybe a little contradict your application for me that it may actually be that regular people are more supportive this than experts. i don't think we know that definitely . but they said that we have empirical evidence from surveys. that's the way it

appears all, and it's really difficult as kelly was saying, it's not like this is a big, huge area of research. it's, it was very, it was very nice and is becoming less nice because the climate our time is actually warming up. so people are now thinking, what else, what else can we do here? i'm going to show to headlines. david, i apologize now is these headlines must, but they, they're going to be quite painful for you to look at controversial test flight aimed at calling the planet cancelled. sweden cancel bill gates, controversial climate cio engineering project. this is what i think you're involved in. bill gates has put some investment into it. what happened, david? why was it can so i'm sorry, but if you say i got it right there. bill. yes, did not invest. does just plain false. bill gates was one, invest means a financial investment. delegates was one of a whole range. oh i see you at now david. i did say he was one of the investors. so it's not it. okay. yeah. but, but what happens with the vanity return, which is different from philanthropy and he had no control or insight into this?

i think it's kind of important actually when people are saying things that are false, sorry to get my back up. but i think truth matters absolutely. welcome, please continue. the, the, the project that was going to happen in june has been cancelled. it was going to be in swedish lapland, what happened and, and how can you make that connection between what we've been talking about. and the cancellation of that practical research project. so we were only planning to fly there because there's a limited number of places around the world that do house is transfer ballooning. and as we, your space corporation turns out to be a wonderful partner for doing ballooning. so we thought that we might fly with them for that reason and some the sammy counsellor indigenous organization and some environmental groups are produced. a very we're very negative argued that shouldn't happen. and to be clear, they actually can see that it has no risk. but that their risk is the idea which i

think is a consistent view. oh and they argued that it shouldn't happen. a swedish government um took that seriously and basically told s s c that they shouldn't verify us. that's what happened. thank you for sharing that with us. that must be quite disappointing for you and the rest of your team at this point. but i want to bring in another point. this one comes from catriona mckinnon. who's thinking about ok, if we get a little bit further along with the science, then what do we need to be thinking about his yes. need to start a public conversation about solar radiation management soon. and that conversation needs to be focused on the date and difficult ethical questions that this new technology raises for us collectively. and in particular, we need to start talking soon about how to govern research into this new technology . in order to mitigate the rest of the technology running ahead of governance, anti i'm just wondering, are we there yet?

i know, yeah. williams, google's david david hickory should have been talking serious about governance 30 years ago. yeah. i mean, when i 1st became involved in this, i and many other people have argued that biggest problem is governance. and we need to begin govern discussions are hard. we need to begin conversations early in order to have any chance of making reasonable decisions when the real decisions come a half the decisions to be clear they shouldn't be made by scientists. they need be made in some organized way that is as legitimate and democratic as possible, but that can all happen in a 2nd. and he and just about to wrap up the final thoughts that day. so i think it's important for people to know that be so tens willard you engineering currently is being dominated by a group of imaged institutions that is based in the globe. not so the only constructive way forward on this is to establish an international governance mechanic. so that is, that is sort of dev knocked to international participation. ok. thank you. angela. i would also was just right at the end of the show, you pull up

a point that needed a new show to into, to talk about that point. but thank you actually for ending on why the debate will continue angelie kelly david on you too. thanks for your comments. really appreciate it. i see you next time. take evelyn ah informed opinions. there was a need, fabulous federal government to take action to really facilitate a take right in depth analysis of the dates, global headlines inside story on al jazeera, the latest news, as it breaks, a new man with his added a voice of these giant dumb fraud. having more moving power, these being able to extract more gold more quickly with detail covering everywhere you look, there is this suction survive, your telephone line will never be the same again for them from around the world. he

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