issued by our oil cleared for public opinion or profit. once you make people afraid, you can use that to justify stripping away basic civil liberties. listening post examined the vested interest behind the content. you could see you on al jazeera. ah, hello, i'm marianna mazin london al main story. now it's been a devastating escalation in yemen. civil war, in which more than 80 people have been killed in the nations internet knocked out. this is, according to the health ministry, which is run by the countries whose he rebels. now, in one attack, at least 77 people were killed in an air strike by the saudi led coalition, on a prison in saada, close to the saudi border. migrants from africa were detained in that prison are believed to be among the dead. and then it will also as strikes on yelman's road, c port red sea port city of

a data which is held by the hu thies. at least 4 people were killed there, and 17 wounded fatalities included. 3 children who thesis sang. the saudi led forces struck communications building. the un secretary general antonio good terrace, held a news conference a short time ago where he addressed those as strikes on friday. no, any bombardment, a target civilians on the or that he's not careful enough to protect civilians is of course also an acceptable. but what we need is to stop these vs circle in which seeing skipped escalating one after the other. what he needs it is to have, as we have been proposing from long ago a ceasefire together with the opening of harbor and the airports. and then at the beginning of a serious dialogue among the parties,

these escalation needs to stop as tension that ukraine's east and border possessed high stakes talk. high stakes talks between ration you asked of ended without any resolution. your secretary if say antony, blinking, and brush and fry mississauga lover of met in geneva and agree to continue negotiations. natasha butler has this report now at a hotel in geneva, the u. s. secretary of state and russian foreign minister arrived for crucial talks into diffusing tensions over ukraine. antony blinkin and sir gay laughed set the tone early. both said to break through was unlikely. we don't expect to resolve your late for you as well. all i know of with losing his job through a position where we are not expecting a break through this meeting either. we are expecting answers to our proposals after the meeting law for offset moscow wanted

a written response from us to its demands. good, including a guarantee that nato will not grant membership to ukraine, something blank and has repeatedly called a non starter. but he said the u. s. would respond to russia if moscow addressed it's concerns and respected ukrainian sovereignty. we've been clear if any russian military forces move across ukraine's order, that's renewed invasion. it will be met with swift, severe, and a united response from united states, and our partners and allies. us intelligence says russia has already amassed at least a $100000.00 troops on its western border and is moving weapons into allied belarus, north of ukraine. the u. s. and russian positions are clearly far apart to blinkin and laugh off making very little real progress. but the 2 men did agree to continue to pursue diplomacy, as waived, the escalating

a crisis which could lead to war. it was on the shores of lake geneva, the talks between the u. s. and russia led to the end of the cold war, decades on how old rivalries have resurfaced, both sides accused each other regression and relations of dangerously deteriorated . the outlook for the coming weeks is turbulent. natasha butler al jazeera geneva. at least 13 people have died in an explosion in west and gonna mm. the truck carrying explosives collided with a motorcycle triggering the blast that flattened dozens of homes. government has promised to cover all medical expenses and assist with the areas recovery. the bottom line is coming up next to asking about the fate of the 39 prisoners still in u. s. military detention in cuba. ah

. hi of steve clements and i have a question 20 years after opening the off the grid military prison in guantanamo. why is it still open and cam united states ever really shut it down? let's get to the bottom line. ah, it's considered one of america's most historic and problematic national security decisions, running a military prison outside the american legal system. but in the wake of the attacks of 911 u. s. forces were scooping up hundreds of prisoners in afghanistan with no idea whether they posed a threat or not, or what to do with them. the u. s. military describe the prisoners then at guantanamo bay, cuba as the worst of the worst. but guess what? soon it became obvious that the vast majority had nothing to do with $911.00 or at least couldn't be convicted. and hundreds of them were sent home to day. 39

prisoners remain in military detention with many just waiting for any country to take them. and the bigger question remains out there at the united states would resort to such tactics when it felt threatened. why shouldn't authoritarian regimes around the world do the same thing? it's still a sore political subject of the united states. so is the military president guantanamo morally unacceptable? and can it be shut down for good? today we're talking to john bellenger, the 3rd, who served as legal adviser to the national security council, and senior associate council to president george w bush during the establishment of the detention facility in guantanamo. and he was leader, chief legal advisor to secretary of state connelly's arise. and he also helped draft the legislation that created the office of the director of national intelligence. he's now a lawyer in private practice with a law firm arnold in port order in washington, d. c. and karen greenberg, director of the center on national security at fordham university school of law. she's the author of several books on the ways that the war on terror impacted justice in law inside america,

including the least worst place. guantanamo 1st 100 days. it's really great to be with you both, john bellenger. let me ask you, you were there at the creation and written very compellingly in the law fare blog. i would highly recommend to our readers to go read your very articulate explanation of why guantanamo was established in your support for it. but take us back to that time and tell us what you thought. the compelling reasons were for guantanamo to be established. bank stevens said to be with you and also with my old friend karen greenberg, who i've talked about one time or wait for a number of years. so i mean, just same right at the outset. before i answer your question, see that i have long been a one time, a skeptic, and from probably my 3rd year in the government. i have supported the closure a long time ago because i've thought that it does us more harm than good. and i advocated for that for much of the time that i was in government. but let me go

back to the beginning because that is important. and i think that actually has been mischaracterized by critics. so as you pointed out, after the invasion of afghanistan, r u. s. forces had captured hundreds. if not thousands of suspected taliban are outside of members, people are trained in training camps or people who had been turned over to us forces. the war was still going on and afghan, a stand in the military commanders said to those of us in washington in december. we can't hold all these people here. if you want us to question them, there's still a hot war going on. you need to find a place to hold them where they can be questions so that we can actually determine who is responsible for 911 and whether there are going to be more attacks coming. because that really was the worry in the fall of 2001 beginning of 2002 that there would be more attacks. so policy makers in washington considered a number of places to hold these detained,

suspected taliban and al qaeda members outside of back in a stand where the commanders didn't want them. we looked at different places around the world and in the united states and ultimately settled on want honda mo, bay, cuba, which was a naval base just off the coast of florida that the clinton administration had used to house something like 10000 patients and cuban refugees during the ministration, so there was infrastructure there, there was a navy base there, there was housing there. people had been previously held there, but it was not in afghanistan, and it was not in the united states where we would have been bringing a bunch of terror suspects. so that's why guantanamo was originally created. not so much to try to put people outside the law, but to have a secure place to hold them. that was not in afghanistan. well,

before i jumped to karen, let me just follow up john and ask, you know, on one level that sounds pragmatic. it even sounds innocent, but we saw, as you said, you know, the development of enhanced interrogation techniques and then, and then behavior is not just about guantanamo, but other black fights. we've heard stories about rendition of these prisoners at different places, humiliation, abuse, etc. i guess my question to you is something that seem pragmatic at the time became something that became very much of a dark spot later. what happened is it, is it just the nature of governments and power and trying to deal with the, the passion and fear at that moment that led to those behaviors? what's your sense of it? because you are in the middle, and i know i'll just tell our audience, you had a lot of moral problems with, with what it evolved. but how did that happen? how did that become part of that story? well, i think it was a pragmatic solution at the time that then ultimately went off base. now i think

a lot of guantanamo critics suggest that while they've been in office that that would have been some perfect solution. but there was not a perfect solution in december 2001 commanders napkin. stan were clamoring for a place to hold the people because there was a hot war. still going on on afghan of stan. nobody wanted to bring hundreds, potentially a 1000 that taliban and i just checked to the united states. and so bottom channel had been a place that had been used before to her house people. it was very close to the united states, but no over time, you're absolutely right. and this is one of the reasons why i long supported that closure one time. and while i was still in government, is that it did become a real moral block on the united states as a country that is committed to the rule of law. number of the other things that you mentioned really had nothing to do with on time. oh, and hands interrogation techniques are renditions or, you know, the abu ghraib,

you know, those are a whole lot of other detention problems that were get much together with one time a one time most certainly had its own problems, including that there were mis treatment and abuse is that one cono, but guantanamo was not abu gray one time or was not to see a black sites. people were not rendered to guantanamo, but it all became sort of caught up in an overall image of abuse of detainees. and of course, there are the famous, famous pictures of the people in the army. jumpsuits are guantanamo that ultimately became a recruiting tool for terrorists around the world. so again, starting as early as 2003 or 4 when i was still in the white house. i began to argue that while i'm talking about might have served a necessary purpose in the beginning of 2002. but it was becoming a albatross for the united states not to be closed down and that the people bear

should be moved by either to their own countries who ought to take responsibility for them or to prisons in the united states. or thank you, karen, i'm listening carefully to john and the early rationale for guantanamo. but i also remember something a political science professor taught me a long time ago, said, steve, you never really know the norms of a political system until you observe it under stress. and under stress, you'll see, you know, not an, a good day when a bad day, what it says really do. and i guess from you, what does the guantanamo detention facility in this story mean in terms of america story out in the world and how it is seen? well, for us, thank you so much for having me. and for doing this show on the 20th anniversary of guantanamo opening, and it's so nice to be in conversation with john, who's mentored me through so many of the questions about guantanamo so you know, what does guantanamo mean? what it means in a time of stress, as you just said, was the,

the united states willingness to push aside many of the many of the rules and regulations and norms that would have governed prisoners in a war time situation. and i would say more than it was the to, to john bellenger's point, the, it was the perpetuation of that, as much as the original fed up that has led us to the quagmire that we're in today . also just want to tag on to something else that you said before you raised about the black sites and the torture of individuals in custody and black sites. in many countries around the world, those prisoners are brought to the united states in the fall of 2006. after the time john was talking about that there was some consideration including his that it was the right thing to do to close guantanamo bay. rather than close it, they did bring these black site individuals that we referred to, mostly as high value detainees to guantanamo. and that in

a way change the nature of guantanamo for ever. it made it look like it was actually the worst of the worth that were there. and not just people that have been rounded up as sort of as, as in afghanistan and elsewhere, to try to just get whoever they could, that they thought might want to do ill to the united states. and so that piece of guantanamo actually changed and has changed it to this day. you know, now we're 20 years out. we still have 39 prisoners over half of almost half of them have been cleared for release, many by the, by the ministration. we have military commissions that if you are a betting person and you wanted to say, will they ever start, you might say yes and whether or not you would say, will they ever come to conclusion, that would be a whole other a bit. so i would say we're stuck in limbo, we've been in this limbo as a country for nearly all of these 20 years. and although we nip and tuck out here

and there it, it seems that the end is forever out of our reach, forever elusive. what about the arguments that some others have made? and recently there was on the 20th anniversary of the opening of guantanamo detention facility testimony before they fill you. karen, you participate in this and, and even major general michael leonard, who is the marine corps, major general who established and set up one time that was his order. he sort of step back and he's among other military officials are saying, look, we need to close this that the, it's doing much more harm to american national security than it is doing good. but you also cite in a piece that ran in the american prospect. karen greenberg, a comment by, by someone who said we still need to do at george mason university is jemila jaffer . and you quote him saying, we know that our enemies continue to target us. we know that the war on terror continues. the question then is what to do about these detainees? we know all these detainees currently remaining at guantanamo bay. some of them

represent the most hardcore, the most committed of the terrorists. we've captured in this conflict. but, but what about the argument that jameel jaffer makes karen? so a couple of things. first, just about major general mike leonard, he's a large part of that book that i wrote the least worth plays about, the opening of guantanamo. and so many of the issues that john bellenger just raised, and that i referred to, we're a parent in those 1st 100 days, which are sort of a sorry, state of affairs. consider its continued this law. the same arguments that were made then are being made now as you've just referred to. and what about that argument is, and i would love to hear john bellenger, talk about this is a couple of things. first, we can resolve the military commissions cases. there are a number of ways to do that. you can do it to have b, as in the federal courts, you can do it through the plea deal. potentially, there are ways to do it and not to have this process draw out even longer than it and it is. and there's an assumption that it just need to draw out. that is not the

case. the 2nd thing is that not 11 did catch us off guard in terms of our national security defenses and offensive. we have spent 20 years as a country building up and intelligence infrastructure, military infrastructure, military intelligence infrastructure, a law enforcement infrastructure. up, my understanding is the united states has made itself a safer nation, have made itself understanding what the threats against us are in the world when it comes to the area of terrorism. why are we so afraid of being able to take care of ourselves when it comes to these $39.00 individuals? what is it that's holding effect? the recidivism rate, despite many reports that have come out, do not seem to be anywhere near what they were once thought to be. it's a 5 percent recidivism rate among those that obama left out. i think more than that for who bush had left out. it's been a long time and coming, and let me just say one other thing, the detainees,

those that could be cleared for release. now not the military commissions, one, there old. many of them are sick. many of them are and very much reduce capacity. and when you talk to those who are out or you read what they've read, or you listen to interviews, you know what they say. they say i want to get my life. i want to see my wife. i want to see my children. i want to participate in the world. they're not talking about terrorism, which is why they're being clear. i'm one of the reasons they're being cleared for release. so that's a partial answer i think, to what you're racing. well, let me ask john volunteer. you know, how can these cases be dispatched? these people moved elsewhere when one criticizes that in almost anything in government, one also has to think of sort of what was the alternatives and, you know, the alternative to setting up guantanamo was either the whole people in afghanistan, which would require to sending probably thousands of more troops and f b, i, agents to afghanistan to hold the people there. question people there that were not safe and sanitary secure conditions. they would have had to send people to

afghanistan. they are now maybe that was the answer, candidly, because people got move too quickly out of afghanistan, the screening was badly done. and so a lot of people got sent to guantanamo really didn't need to be because the initial screening was not well done. but the alternative would have been, and we've just gone through a great national debate about whether we should be sending people in the wars out, is to have sent thousands of people to afghanistan to hold them and question them there. but in case they are guantanamo over for presidents now, starting with george bush and then brock obama and then donald trump. and now joe biden. well, over 750 people have been transferred to other countries. the detainees came from something like 30 different countries who it all on to afghanistan. and i can tell you that, you know, despite,

although i think some of the people wanted to really were entirely innocent when you hear their lawyers say, you know that, that they were all on the wrong place at the wrong time. and i don't think all of those people were in the wrong place at the wrong time. you know, some of them were in fact, up to no good. they could not be charged under us criminal laws because us criminal laws at the time and 2001 did not apply to the conduct of non us national in afghanistan. it wasn't a crime for you many or a saudi to simply train and training camp and i can't stand. so when you hear their lawyers are advocates say, well, they've been charged with nothing. they've been charged with no crime. you know, the assumption is, well therefore they've done nothing wrong and are innocent. and in some cases i think there were mistakes and people were innocent. but not every single person who was released to not charged with the crime. you know, had been simply

a tourist in afghanistan, so over success your presence, we did get most countries to take their nationals back so that we wouldn't be responsible for the out. that leaves us now to the remaining $39.00. some, as canada said, have been cleared for lease, they'll have to go back to their own countries. we have to make sure they'll be treated well in their own countries there about a dozen who have been charged with crimes and military commissions. people like collegiate mohammad who has been a jo personally admitted to cutting off the head of the wall street journal reporter danny pearl. so there are some bad people there and then there are another dozen roughly can, can give me the exact number of people who have not been charged but have not been cleared for release. now, let me bring in something that we haven't mentioned yet, which is critical. is that the reason that a key reason the quantum has not closed and certainly was not closed within

a year after brock obama wanted to do so, ordered it done. if the congress in 2011 pass laws that are still on the books that prohibit the transfer of guantanamo detainees to the united states. so there is a congressional law that is been supported by both republicans and democrats saying detainees can't be moved into the united states. now. i think that is a mistake. when i was still in the bush administration, i supported transferring as many people out of one, find them out to their home countries. so we wouldn't have to be responsible for them. and the remainder who we, that we wanted to prosecute, or we felt were too dangerous to transfer united states. and i think those who argue that it's not safe to transfer the united into the united states is that is just hogwash. you know, we have maximum security presence, either a military presence or civilian prisons. and i think if we were to transfer the

remaining number of these detainees at guantanamo to either a military facility or, or a civilian facility, they are not going to be walking out the back door. i have confidence in that. well, thank you john. karen, i know, i know both you and john, you know, live this story and i've been working on these issues so deeply which is why we are talking to you, but go out and take the temperature as you talk with senator dick durbin, who chaired and held these her hearings earlier on potentially closing guantanamo, do you sense that there's any shift in this time of biden, the biden era, to actually doing things that other presidents couldn't do. the article that you wrote sounded pessimistic yet funny. i started out very optimistic at the beginning of the by an administration because a number of things were done to clear individuals who transferred to, to move ahead with the military commissions. in terms i think there is much more sentiment for closing one ton of ho then there has been in the past i,

i've seen statements by a number of senators and others representatives about trusting american in the world. and it's come up in a couple of hearings lately. i also think there are a lot of people who just aren't aware of guantanamo who aren't thinking about it. and the idea that there would be some kind of tremendous pushback. yeah. if politicians wanted to really inflame it and get them to talk about it, i think that's fine. i think want to that maybe one of the things that may be going on is, and i course hope this is that there's some kind of behind the scenes work going on . but there has not been a special envoy appointed as there was under obama cancelled under trump to take these individuals that have been released and to find countries that will take them because most of them are not going to be released to their home country. many come from yemen and other war torn areas where they, where the united states feels that it would be too dangerous to put them both for terms of our security should they want to re engage and their own security in terms of human rights issues. but the thing you can't lose sight of here is that it's 39

people. we should, we as a country to be able to say, we haven't been able to close guantanamo, we can't find a judicial system either federally or in, in guantanamo, in the military commissions that knows how to adjudicate these cases. this is such an insult to the way we like to think of our institutions there are bus, know their ability to handle things are called and tried to bring these cases to the united states when he 1st came into office. that is when congress, after that trial congress passed the law saying that no dean 18 a could be come here for any reason whatsoever, not health, not trial, not anything else. it would be great if that could change, but i don't think plans going ahead are going to be dependent on that. let me just do a quick check with both of you 10 years from today. if we invite it back to, i'll talk about this again. will we still have a guantanamo detention facility? likely still open jon bellenger. i think there's a real possibility,

although i hope that joe biden will actually figure a way to get it close to. as karen said, there are only 39 people laugh 18 cleared for release. that's only about 20 left. right. lawyers argues that the president could simply use his executive powers to move people to the united states, right? some to be held without charge, unfortunately, and some who would be prosecuted either in a military system or judicial system. so i hope that he will actually figure out a way to get it closed during his presidency. but i certainly wouldn't bet the money that 10 years from now that it will still be open. karen greenberg, real quick, are we going to be talking about this in 10 years now? i, i have to believe what i want to believe, which is we're going to figure out how to close this finally once and for all. well, listen, thank you both for your candor and your insights into this john bellenger,

former advisor to the state department and national security council, and karen greenberg, director of the center on national security at fordham university school of law. thanks so much for joining us today. okay, so what's the bottom line groups like the islamic state appropriated, the iconic orange jumpsuits warned by guantanamo prisoners as part of their story that they were murdering and killing because of the unjust ways that their comrades detain in cuba were being treated with guantanamo where america abandoned the rule of law and treated prisoners, inhumanely tortured them. america gave its enemies a gift that has helped them recruit tens of thousands of young men and women to join their ranks. i would like to say that what we've seen in these last decades at guantanamo is not the real america. but the truth is that it is in part who and what america is. there is a dark side just there is also a system of justice for most and wrestling candidly and honestly with this dark episode is the only way america can once again prove to a new generation around the world. that the rule of law and democracy are worth

aspiring to want taught emma, whether it remains open, longer or it closes, must never be forgot. remembering it, knowing that americans were not their best selves, there is the only way to move beyond it. and that's the bottom line. ah. msc, this is one of the most dangerous active volcanoes in the world. but not everyone fee is living in its shadow. this get food, sit for honey. there's something magnetic about vesuvius that with people who don't live out lyndhurst. oh, she cyril will goes to the red zone near naples to understand this unusual love living with the volcano on al jazeera. yes, lisa law july. but the world assume

a wrestling is shrouded in secrecy. one on one east gets rear axes inside a sport where ancient tradition meets modern scandal on l. j 0. lou. no, i'm sorry. i'm tomor zane london. a quick look at the main stories noun more than 80 people have died and as strikes and rebel held areas of yemen, the who's the health minister said at least 77 of them were killed and not attacked by the saudi led coalition on a prison and saw the province in northern yeah, in close to the saudi border. whereas your operations are under way to find survivors buried beneath the rubble. the wall. so as strikes on yelman's road, see port city of her data, which is held by the who thes at least 4 people were killed there in 17 wounded 3 children are among the dead.