will coming, he and lighting the lanterns together, really shows the power of, as buddhists is like, we are all helping to spread the teachings of buddhism, even though their religion is already 2600 years old. that obama, this event is to uphold. that is an unpaid gratitude to the sacrifices lord buddha has done this day is important to everybody, no matter if their buddhists are not. ah, are, let's have a quick chicken. the headlines here in our 0 and the russian defense ministry has published new video. what it says is, tanks returning to their basis, the united states and nato say russia is adding more troops, new ukraine, and there is no evidence of a callback or ukrainian president modeman. zalinski has also dismissed russian statements of a draw on march law bullock in a court, which way we are seeing a large concentration of troops. it hasn't changed over the last week. we're seeing some small rotations. what i wouldn't call these rotations of pullback of russian

troops cause to throw out there. we will confirm the pullback of russian troops once it happens and once a short period of time passes after the number of groups of military forces and hardware decreases at those parts of the border. he, a russian back to rebels and east and ukraine of accused ukrainian government forces of using mortars to attack their territory, their keys, the forces of violating cease fire agreements in the dispute region. the cranes has the rebels of shell depositions. 8 times. in the past 24 hours. hospitals and testing facilities in hong kong are under pressure because of a major coven 19 up break the worst since upon them it began. the territory reported a record of nearly 4300 cases on wednesday. at least 94 people have been killed in severe flooding and mudslides in southeastern brazil. rescue teams is searching for survivors in the city of patropolis. and hundreds of people are in emergency shelters after their homes were destroyed. it is the heaviest rainfall the region has seen in 90 years. authorities have declared

a state of disaster for president of our daughter's one, orlando hernandez has appeared at his 1st expedition. meeting united states wants him handed over after accusing him of involvement in drug trafficking, that as was arrested at his home. on tuesday, he left office los less than 3 weeks ago, 8 years. united states, as it is in the final stages of indirect talks with iran to try and save the 2015 euclid deal. france is also taking part in discussions and it's foreign minister says an agreement could be just days away. syrian government air strikes have killed at least 4 people and injured 3 others in the northwest. they targeted a fuel market in it lip, which is the last remaining province held by rebels yesterday with headlines next up, it is inside story. see in a bit after news

ah, ah, signing pegasus, a european watch dog says it's time to make the spy where illegal governments have been accused of using it to violate the privacy of activists than journalists who can stop pegasus. why now, this is inside story. ah, ah

hello, welcome to the show i'm sammy's a than while the balance between privacy and security, once again, back in the spotlight in europe. this time it's data protection watched august founding the alarm about the threat posed by surveillance software, specifically, the israeli pegasus spyware. it allows governments to access people's personal information and decrypt private communications. the warning comes as part of the ease efforts to ensure your opinions, situations, respect the rights of privacy. when they process personal data and develop new policies therapy and dancer protection supervisor says pegasus could lead to an unprecedented level of intrusiveness. able to interfere with the most intimate aspects of our daily lives, back on the development and deployment of spyware, with the capability of pegasus in the e. u, would be the defective option to protect all fundamental rights and freedoms. the official goes on to say at the center of debate on tools like pegasus should not

only be the use of the technology, but the importance we attributes the right to privacy. pegasus is one of the most powerful spy, whereas out there, it's been developed marketed and license the governments around the world by the israeli company. and so group, it's known for its 0 click attack capabilities. that means it can exploit vulnerabilities and break into a phone without the owner doing anything like clicking on a malicious link. once it breaches the device, the software can allow hacker to record phone calls, copy messages, and even secretly record video. amnesty international has accused countries including morocco, the u, a saudi arabia, and mexico, of using the spyware for political surveillance. the. let's bring in our guests into the show. we

have joining us from geneva, stefan to gun chief executive officer of the fiber peace institute in brussels funding. he'd be european policy director at access now and n g o defending civil rights and privacy online. and in new delhi set up about a data john founding editor of the digital news portal. the wire, his phone was hacked, using pegasus spyware. a welcome warm or warmer. come i should say to all of you, if i could start with fanny. so pegasus has been around since 2011, hasn't it? why is there only talk of binding it? now? one thing is for sure is that as the european data protection supervisor would say, the question is by there's fibers we'd like beggars should have any place in a democratic society. and the answer is no. and if it has no place in a democracy, then it has no place anybody in the world. and while it's already a be played,

but we would like to sandy's been following. the bus is just coming after 11 years . isn't it? well, these are forms always take a long time and what the report recently have shown is that and to keep abilities that you presented in, it's not an exaggeration to say that the use of touch by that would be eliminated the right to privacy. not only the target the person, but also to a large extent, all of their contact civil since the infringement, the so severe it affects the sense of the right to privacy and it can never be proportionate. there are no legal safeguards that can mitigate the harms and the, on the appropriate solution is an immediate stop on the sale and transfer and developmental such tools. ok, steph, and i'm wondering if part of the concern is the fear of heavy commercialization of software like this government spy agencies may not have

a monopoly for very long as this is left unchecked. it sir. good question. and who will build on what has been said before. so question of proportionality and escalation. this cannot be any professional use of this kind of tools when this proliferation of these tools and they are proliferating because of the markets, it supply and demand. so in a very strange situation where the private sector is dictating, who can spy on who, who can purchase the capacity to be in, in opportunity to transform your phone into a portable spy that he's going to listen to. what you're saying is going to be able to transmit what you're looking at and everything about your, your personal life. so the fact that there's a markets that goes way beyond tennis way beyond because there's lots of organization that are specialized in this software is offensive. several capabilities is key to problem. it's a quicksand. we are building something on quick talk about how it impacts personal

life, said that you were a victim of pegasus. as well as the fact of course you are a journalist, you're a key member of civil society. how did it impact you and your job? well, when i found out from last year that my phone had been infected and obviously your mind does all kinds of analysis as to, you know, who have you been in touch with? what sensitive sources might have been compromised, so on and so forth. and essentially, when a journalist started in the way that i was an other colleagues in india, i think a total of, you know, we found $4040.00 plus journalists in the list of numbers from the lead to database as part of the biggest project. and we were able to confirm infections, and i think at least 5 or 6 journalist phones, the attack is actually on much more than the privacy of the individual. the attackers on press freedom, the attackers on democracy,

the attackers on our ability to, you know, whole governments to account by the work that we do sit out. did you ever find out who targeted you? the matter is on the investigation in india right now, because of number of victims approached the supreme court and the supreme court has set up a committee to investigate and actually get to the bottom of this my reasonable, some ice based on the fact that n a so says it sells only 2 governments. is that the government concerned is the government of india. also one of the agencies because minor motors, part of a database of targets in whom no foreign government could conceivably have an interest. the only government that would have an interest in that range of characters, opposition politicians are, you know, human rights defenders, lawyers, journalists, et cetera. would be the government. yes. so that's a reasonable surmise. and we know from the new york times reporting that

a contract was signed in 2017 between the n a. so and the government and all right, of course, that is the suspicion of course we can't say, but that is the case for sure. just to be fair to the new government. however, i think finally wants to get in. come in on that funny. yes, that in addition reports and attribution b, dylan doors. fact and fishermen, there are you governments that have already admitted that they have bought and use the because the software one of these government, the country are poor land beating the european union despite or the, or the exposure by journalist that's done in the past. they have no shame or fed meeting the use and abuse of such technology against opposition figures the journalist lawyers and potentially human rights defenders. so we hope that

based on these facts and again, not just ports, but, but actual, the meeting of these governments, the european union institutions and member state authorities follow up investigations and such as the hungarians to go liberties, union, bridges. my rights and you were hungry, lounged a different legal avenues, and they are pushing, for instance, the rope can commit to start and infringement proceeding against hungry following the following. 34, i think, and do you think that you will actually violate what's your feeling if you look in your crystal ball? i. so i believe that from a legal standpoint, there is no other choice. right? and true band bending is the very, it's a very that could be put in the go practice. you know, it's not, it's not

a simple x of bending all. that would be to practice. absolutely. we'll come back on that. but i think i saw for a 2nd that stephan was angling to get him go ahead stuff. i'm yes, miss woods serving was mentioning the you is in this very interesting situation where you remember states are by inc. mistletoe. and sometimes you members that are victims of attack in the sense that the people on the, in the national rooms all targeted, even officials of you are of you states. so it's interesting to see that the existing, the one from work because there's a legal framework that route into our ability conspiracy. the fact that there's a jewel use exports rules that are in place in you. but all of that did not lead to a situation when there's control, there's a clear lack of control. so indeed her trying to enforce control bits baby wants work. this is the demonstration. what we need to have here is and then is

a moratorium, a global moratorium, and usage developments and deployment of these tools. even if that's the case so that it seems like so far from the cases. we know it's mostly governments and intelligence agencies which have been using these railey software pegasus. would they really care about a van? i mean, some of these agencies are set up to work secretly and spy and violate laws of, of other, at least other countries and other nationals. would it really make a difference if it's banned for, for the agencies which are currently using it as far as we know? look, it depends on which countries and what, what's the matter of the ban? i think the, the route that the united states has chosen to follow, which is to sanction the company involved. and so by putting it on the entities list. so that might well create a situation where and a so is then unable to offer services to any government. if it, if,

if the u. s. action is taken to its logical conclusion. of course that are a number of governments that have chosen to, you know, that are concerned about the privacy implications. i should ask any that while i'm as ready as you want to cut the government of india black in terms of saying, well, we haven't proved that they are the ones who use the factors of the government of india was given an opportunity in parliament and of the supreme court to deny that they bought and used because it's against us that they chose not to do that as well . right. so there is a presumption based on tonight and i would say that, you know, based on the absence of them. and so i would say that, you know, essentially this is a tool, this is, you know, i think one of the, on the panelists use the phrase, do use the very bottom technology that obviously has an application as far as financial counterterrorism, etc. is concerned. but it's literally very well designed to be used for, you know,

targeting civilian political opponents of government. and i think this is where the danger lies that this is, you know, going well beyond the individual purpose implications. we're talking about governance, undermining democracy, right? in india, we have evidence that opposition politicians were targeted with pegasus in the midst of an election. you have to think what is due to the standards of an election in poland, in even an israel, of the kind of evidence that emerging suggests that because this is extremely damaging, all 5 and like pegasus to the very essence of democratic institution, which is why i think a moratorium or a band no matter how it is designed and implemented is absolutely essential. absolutely essential. is it easy, fanny to actually put a ban into practice though? how much oversight is there over what some of these governments and intelligence agencies do? especially if you start talking about secret service programs. who knows? right. i mean, edward snowden revealed

a lot of things that surprised many people. i was going to say that 11 investigatory tool at the moment is that the hands of the european parliament who just as after disorder, revelation they are doing this inquiry committee. but while i share your skepticism about how security agencies we'll follow from them and said right, recommendations around data protection and privacy, especially in the european union, but hopefully even more broadly, there are legal rules around national security. and just because the claim that the use of this ology is on national security grounds, it doesn't mean that there are a clickable and, and this is the, let's say coup that we can put this in practice. and there's a need to strengthen the democratic oversight over surveillance measures and specific legislations around you should be enforced in

a much better me national data protection authority piece in some countries have the right to investigate, which is the case and hungry as well. but for unfortunate, maybe political reasons, the authority function would be a very formal investigation and didn't get into the specifics, but there are the concrete against there with people there lawful or not interesting stuff. and if there's something that we need to address in terms of the relationship between big tank corporations and government and how much of a difference would a ban make to that kind of relationship that's developing your question. half the ball is and then, and how to implement it, or at least technically then will be very helpful in the sense that it will disrupts the supply and the demand. all of this is about supply and demand. you

have a government entity that are asking for the stores, and then on the other end you have just an ecosystem that is exploding in number of companies that are providing this tool set. which means that public money today, taxpayer money goes through fuel investments in these companies that are doing what they're investing into, making the internet not secure for everyone. so a band with at least you're disrupt this demand increasing, that is creating an increase of supply. and also going to be very, very clear, but let me just and as we've heard reports of some, the less than government, simply hiring people who work for top notch, weston corporations and intelligence agencies is there. and i mean, can you really ban the software? the knowledge of the software, it's easily copied and developed by other governments who don't have a lot of care or respect for human rights and privacy. now that's, that's exactly is that if you, you start with the band, you start with the model you're, you're going to disrupt the demand. it's not, the demands is from the supply,

is going to be less people that are going to specialize themselves into the insecurity on the internet. so that's, that's a very good 1st step in order to get kind of a hit with this market that you just going unchecked me. i would have to say it's, this is discovered because of the work that we civil society are doing. and here i would like to commend the work of access now which one is there? and this is a lab and amnesty tech and others that for years you're seeing 2011. i mean investigated with our own mean dis, activities. i would like to see the thing, investment of public money in public procurements of the stores. going to see the society which are investigating this abuse to human rights said out, how would a ban impact the court cases going on against and the so group. maybe you could also talk a little bit about your personal experience and the sort of legal action your pursuing. well, you know that there's various sorts of legal action that's happening right now. and

it's so it's self and subjected to is facing cold cases in america. thanks to what's up and apple and i think microsoft has joined that as well. and then there is that there are cases that have been fined in france by, by some of the victims of pegasus and me and some colleagues in india also party to that. and then there is the matter in india, which is not strictly legal proceeding as in terms of a case against the other. so, but right now, at the currently, at the stage of a fact finding prob, by the supreme court of india, which is trying to a certain from the government of india, whether it bought because this and use that. and if so on, whose legal authority? and i think depending on what emerges from that for prob, uh, we will see what kind of ones are both and legal and political terms opening up in india. just kind of, you know, you said out absolutely. i think that, you know, for us the, the matter in india really is

a question of pinning responsibility of the government. so what happens and so in that sense is secondary. but i think and as those on challenges, going to be quite considerable in the california court where facebook and apple have tried to hold it to account fanny, i'm wondering why has pegasus attracted so much attention? how's it different from other spine tools? i, i believe that it's very tangible for everybody on how to corner the complete access to your phone. and that's because it has to be, she's actually a little bit even more than what you as a user, we have as control over your form. it can even record secretly, conversation that you will not be aware of. so i think i think that harm is very tangible. everybody understands how there's no limits between our life in the

offline and the on line broke. and that's how there shouldn't be limited between how we enjoy right course offline and align. and the specific cases that were revealed all around the world. sure that the fiber tools then go to see particular are used to target political opposition to my read defenders and journalists are not target that you could even claim legitimate national security purposes. it's a, it's a clear abuse of such tool. but as i said, the would argue that legally, even that there is a very, very limited effect or cases where you could use these tools. but these cases show how, how they were abused. and the while i fully agree that there should be a control around the feel and, and be discuss export controls. but the real, not the real, that the additional shame i think in the past few months speaking to you and union has been that the are advocating for these norms externally. why the cannot even

enforce them between the borders of the you and the why all your institutions that you can't commission has been must really be a bit stronger with the member states to ensure that that the charter is in effect . and indeed, from a technical perspective, stefan pegasus is not the only spy software out there or spy program. we've known for years, if not for decades, of programs like at chill on sig, in, to edward snowden, that there's plenty of tools and ways for governments to spy on people. right? no, the really is, it's longest real intrusion spike. it's a long history of proliferation of offensive several capabilities, but to work. so what made the big as a story. it's way to the lines. he is the scale and he has the capacity for

a private entity to dictates across the world who gets the capacity to spine on who . and this is absolutely going against any proportionality because it's a, it's exploiting vulnerabilities on every once in for structure the internet that you and i are using you have people that are just looking into the holes in the gold dust talk by doing this. and they're waiting just to deploy for the one that can, that can purchase it. so that's really the game changer that and the discount. and yet it is indeed said art, how much of a challenge to democracy is this is really spyware program. and when you think about what we've known so far, has been targeted, sometimes opposition figures, sometimes human rights activists, lawyers, journalists like yourself. that's basically the nuts and bolts of democracy, isn't them? absolutely, this is why pegasus is so dangerous, right?

i mean, if nobody is denying that, you know, if you go way back in history, governments have, you know, it's a government government escalade, right? you mentioned echelon, for example, the government to come with garages of a well known phenomenon, right? there's a legal, you know, it's not governed by any legal code or international law, quite frankly. but, you know, for example, the planting of the same device is an embassy that one government would do during the cold war, even our presume. all that happens. because this is that plus so much more and what does emerge about the way? because this has been uses that this military, this capability that until now we had assumed was being used only for the purposes of one states trying to get one up on another. this is now and the phones all politicians, journalists, human rights, defenders, lawyers in india. we actually found one case of

a young woman who had accused the chief justice of india sexual health. and we found that each telephone numbers linked to her had been dotted with this as well, but on the database suggested that they were docketed basis. and so you imagine how in the hands of unscrupulous, no, no enforcement in the, in the hands of unscrupulous governments in the hands of unscrupulous intelligence agencies. how this can be turned into a weapon to silence the voiceless of the week to target for the political opposition to steal a march on on, and suppress free media. so you get it, you know, you basically cripple the ability of just to do their jobs. this is a recipe for dictatorship, quite frankly. so you can, you can, you can, you can go to the motions of having elections that haven't gotten out and see. and, you know, having a free press. but if the ruling party acting through it, agencies is able to deploy pegasus and a get a get

a bunch of you, of what the opposition and what journals are doing at all times. then you have undermine the essence of democracy. and the other is indeed i'm afraid we are out of time to want to have to thank our guests, stefan doggone fanny, he'd vicki and sit out. but i don't know john and thank you to for watching. you can see the show again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion head over to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com. forward slash inside story. can also join the conversation on twitter. i'll handle there is an, a j inside story from me, sammy's a van and the entire team here for now, in scope, by ah, discarded clothes from rich nations are funneled to charities and sold to

impoverished nations on an unprecedented scale. a massive industry sift through the unwanted garments to re so to some of the world's poorest inhabitants. but much of what arrives is unfit for purpose and is fueling environmental catastrophe. people in power travels to garner to uncover the dirty secrets behind the world. fashion addiction that white man's clothes on edge is eda. as punches intensify along the russian crane border u. s. presidential bypass, threatened president. severe economic sanctions saying a conflict of hers. it could be the largest invasions for 2 kinds of nomadic talks . a few possibilities. what we live from moscow to bring the latest development on al jazeera take take to ship to democracies. activists to corporations. control of the message is crucial. oil companies have become very good at recognizing ways to phrase what they want to hear. we care about the environment you do to issued by

our oil plate for public opinion or profit. once you make people afraid, you can use that to justify stripping away basic civil liberties. listening post examined the vested interest behind the content you consume on al jazeera. ah, more russian forces not fewer or at the border. the united states and nato say, there are still no signs. russian troops are pulling back from your cranes borders despite moscow's claims. ah, i'm the clog, this is out 0 life and also coming up like sand castles, a nice to know me. one daughter describes hong kong, devastating 5th cove. it 19 wave that's pushed hospitals to breaking.