a new res, young man in city of design, boston, david or jay are also the block lights, movement, room events. we're going to call the bureau ah, the federal government. my drill has also been in the fall from to base writing directly to request a return of the park in neighboring nigeria. the king of the benign kingdom has welcomed home to stolen bronzes from british universities. this is, this is dawn. this was a lot of doors because florida the symbolized the walls, your hope all the afternoon. i did want to resolve the stolen go with dental with health. what do you do? what do i received a full, a good. a recent report commissioned by the elisa palace kind of some 90000 african works in french museums. a law is being drawn up to precipitate their return.

barbara anger. papa al jazeera. ah hello you. what town is here? these are the top stories this our french president manuel mccrendon is holding a phone call with his russian count about vladimir putin as is an escalation in fighting in east in ukraine could lead to a bigger conflict monitors in eastern ukraine, separatist regions says there have been more shelling on sunday, it comes as moscow banked separate as late as claim civilians in dumbass continue to be evacuated to russia. charles stratford has moved from east in ukraine. people that we've spoken to in around the airport in don atkins saying that they've heard a few explosions. they cannot confirm whether they were incoming or outgoing. of course, the, the accusations by both sides continue the ukrainian army this morning.

interestingly, in its daily sit rep is accusing the russians of moving heavy weapons closer to that front line, which i said oversee of a violation of the minsk agreement. the grand a v o p and rene san stam has begun generating electricity for the 1st time. a v p in prime minister and attend to the creation ceremony of africa, the largest hydro electric power project. algeria president abdel module that to burn a has been holding talks of cuts has a mere shake. come and been how many l sonny? the 2 were expected to discuss their relations and the upcoming hour so much. and the great co, scott is reporting that a passenger has been found alive on board a fairy that has been on fire since friday. and as you services have been trying to get the blaze and the control, those are the headlines. i'm emily anglin. inside story is next aah.

who's telling the truth about ukraine? russia and the u. s. are both accused of manipulating facts to fan the flames of war. so who will win the information battle for public opinion? this is inside story. ah. hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much am jerome? it's often said that the 1st casualty of war is the truth with tension is running high over a potential russian invasion of ukraine. all sides have accused each other of spreading misinformation and propaganda. here are some examples. the separatist

leaders of the don best region ordered mass evacuations to southern russia. they say the ukrainian military is preparing to move into the area. kiev denies this, and the u. s. calls the evacuation operation, a false flag operation by russia to justify military action. moscow has long said ukraine is threatening russian speakers even accusing key of, of genocide. political that will allow me to add that in our assessments. what's happening now in the dumbass constitutes genocide. the u. s. called the genocide claim a reprehensible falsehood. the state department says russia is behind a huge disinformation campaign, but washington has faced criticism as well. the u. s. as moscow could invade at any moment, joe biden repeated the warning despite ukraine's president saying such information is sewing unnecessary fear. we have reasonably,

the russian forces are planning to attend to attack ukraine in the coming week. the coming days we believe that they will target ukraine's capital key. a city of 2800000 innocent people. and do you have any vacation about whether president has made a decision on whether you feel confident that he's, that he hasn't made that decision already? as of this moment, i'm convinced he's made a decision. we have reasonably. some journalists are questioning the use of flawed intelligence by comparing the situation to the us invasion of iraq in 2003. this is or need to provide some underlying evidence of just what you're seeing. that shows americans. this is a country that went through raw and concerned about what the intelligence the showing that the penetration see, and needs to provide underlying and tell us what. let me just start with a fundamental distinction between the situation in iraq and the situation today.

and the situation in iraq, intelligence was used and deployed from this very podium to start a war. we are trying to stop a war to prevent, to war, to win a, to affirm a war. and all we can do is come here before you and get a good faith in sure everything that we know to the best of our ability while protecting sources and methods. so we continue to get the access to intelligence we need. ah, all right, let's bring in our guess. lotta ros. litski is founder and managing partner add black trident defense and security consulting group. she joined us from give. richard soco is a professor of russian and european politics at the university of kent. he joins us from kent in the united kingdom. and joining us by skype from munich is peter's a my have executive director at the erasure democracy initiative. a warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. la, to let me start with you today. tensions right now are soaring about the situation with regard to russia and ukraine. from your vantage point. is there anybody when

it comes to the disinformation and misinformation war that's going on between the u . s. in russia? that is actually winning this battle at the moment. oh, there can be no women in an psychological operation that terrorized is and population as millions, tens of millions of so right now? no, no. when only needs peter, moscow is accuse ukraine of plotting a genocide against ethnic russians and denounced ukrainians as nazi sympathizers. this is the narrative that is being advanced by russian media outlets. you hear this more and more each and every day. what else are we hearing when it comes to russian? this information about ukraine? well, 1st of all, obviously you have to understand that this is a complete lie in a fabrication i originally from the east of ukraine. i'm

a russian speaking ukrainian american from the netscape. originally, so there's no genocide going on. there never, never happened. there it is, obvious would be hearing from moscow and obviously a is, i mean what we're seeing from moscow is attempts to make the ukrainians panic, make ukrainians afraid? you know, there's current constant flow of information including coming from washington that we still haven't been able to verify the veracity of tragedy that russia has applied to the entire country. they're preparing lists of all those activists, such as myself, for example, were based in kids who have been critical of russia. that would be the 1st a, russia, they, that would be the 1st to be arrested, disappeared, shot, etc. so there is, there is, there's that campaign of intimidation that we see that is a crucial component of witness strategy. whether he orders a full country invasion or, or not. a lot of i thought you nodding along to

a lot of what peter was saying there, it looks like you wanted to jump in, so please go ahead. yeah, i it, it, is it quite terrorizing to hear about these lists and that having been said however, and we do need to look back at what happened in 2014 when the russian, especially agents were abducting assassinating a ukrainians on mosque in the currency. uncontrolled territories, so it is frightening, it's completely unpleasant. it does help in a matter of protecting. for instance, earlier people had all of their friends phone numbers in their telephone on their same cards. people been such as accident if you could potentially be on his lease list a probably a little bit more keen on not having that information on them should they be impacted. richard, you know, western governments have been very vocal lately about trying to out russian online this information tactics this,

this is quite different than the response in the past. is this amped up response? because of the fact that moscow has been successful in tilting public opinion around geopolitical issues in the past. there's 2 things there on the geo politics . this language of these information misinformation is misleading. in some cases it's useful. yes, and we'll come back to that. but what a lot of it is, is a different perspective on the political situation and the larger historical context. we talked about the 2014 events and even then just a statement that was just said, is massively exaggerated. and we know that there was a terrible conflict. and in the my done the way that in the end, the shooting came from the may dining surgeon themselves as a lot of evidence shown. so it's an absolutely appalling situation. but the key point is that sometimes you dangerous to use the language of disinformation

when it's simply policy disagreements. and this goes back, not just a protein, it goes back to yeltsin, it goes back to the larger geopolitical context of nato enlargement. right, so i mean, that the situation is absolutely appalling and i've every sympathy for the inhabitants. so if you thing but and also for russia, which has been suffering for years of sanctions when the sanctions are, had a lot of them have been imposed to ensure that russia fulfilled the minced records when it was obviously key. which had to take the initiative on them. and so that is unjust. and so i think we need to step back a bit from this language of good information which has been going on for many years . so it's not just been and now it's worse than it has been before. let's listen to the serious arguments and i think both sides have exaggerated massively this call. it was an old fashioned word quote. again to ladder. i saw you shaking your head to some of what richard was saying there,

so it looks like you want to jump in again to go ahead. thank you. first and former, no country after the 2nd world war has changed international border. so we discussed your politics and humans develop critical, right. and i shouldn't. iteration does have a lot to explain and be held accountable for including the terrible tragedy of mh 17 that having been said, i believe the glory of the truth has been constructed completely. so of course everybody has the right to their perspective. everybody has the right to their opinion. at the end of the day, it is the responsibility of why people with integrity to know the truth and defend human civil political rights which have been codified after the atrocities of the 1st and 2nd world. this is very important. peter, us intelligence agencies have been the classifying information, saying that they believe that waterman food plans to invade ukraine and then

they've been sharing it widely. if this strategy, because this does seem to be a pretty big change in strategy from the past. is this making it more difficult for vladimir potent to just fine invasion than visiting the munich security conference . and i just stepped away from, ah, ukrainian luncheon. that is happening right now with the former dignitaries, former defense minister james matt. this general davis betray us at mitchell calling about the credit for the minister just arrived and will be speaking. so there's a lot of talk about western unity in supported ukraine. and it seems like most, most folks are on board with joe by the strategy, which i'll tell you as just as a private person, it's been hard for me to be taking to be opening up new york times every morning and to see that an invasion is happening, it's even going to happen any day now. now we're talking about these lists, you know, of people who will be disappear, putting in dates. obviously this is part of the strategy whether wouldn't invades

or not. it's already working. i was working not only in ukraine and ukrainian mines, but it's working on official mines throughout the world. you know, so that's what you call that credible threat. whether there is an invasion in mind that wouldn't have you can not discount this as a, as an, as a, as a possibility. even though by all accounts it seems like it will be suicidal step for vitamin wouldn't. simply because he just won't be able to get, he'll be able to invade a part of your grants territory. will he be able to occupied for a long period of time? that's a much harder question. and let me just very briefly respond to the previous speaker . we mentioned minsk agreements, and we mentioned that both sides have since when comes to do formation, let me just ask maybe a rhetorical which may be a direct question to him. does he really believe what's happening in the east of ukraine with the shelling of civilian population centers that ukraine as, as, as quick as the kremlin claims that ukraine is now doing this?

after having had the almost 200000 russian troops on the borders, does he really believe that ukraine is attacking that is disinformation inaction? that is the false flag operation in will do that bite and that the biden speak administration has been warding about? we're seeing it, you know, in real time, richard, that's a direct question to you from peters. i'm going to let you go ahead and respond. we're going to go back a couple of steps. like i said, they're not getting the overall sentiment that we have to base your analysis on fact. but the question at the moment in this intense war, faith on all sides has led to the distortion affects the buddhist have changed. we've seen it with kosovo within it. would go, we've seen it with a whole stack of other elements, not to justify it, but simply to say that to the borders have been changed and it's appalling because they 945 system precisely try to avoid forced a non consensual moving of borders as for 17, it's an absolute tragedy,

but always suggesting that they went out that day, the insurgents to shoot guns, a civilian airliner. obviously not the aim was there as an intensive, intensifying war. we know that there were the geneva accords of april 2014, which you can walk away from. there was a deal on the table which could have avoided all of us. and yet they failed to achieve and to talk to their own people in the don't bass. they failed to talk to their own citizens in the don bass, which could have avoided this appalling conflict. and as for the shelling, now, we know that for years they've been mutual shilling on both sides. that the next case on the front line at the moment is you are on the front line and citizens and civilians have been under selling and firing and sniper text for years. and we had to sort it out. and the failure of germany in finance, in particular, to put pressure on kids to fulfill what we're talking about. the basic normal thing,

which is the level of dilution. it can happen initially. it can happen in spain. it can happen in canada for some reason. we give, you can a puss when we could have found a diplomatic solution. and so we end up with this appalling situation where you have why didn't know why the figure of 200000. but we said far too many forces on the side. we have 130000 you canyon troops. also. i'm facing against. they don't, don't richard. so we'll intentionally richard. i'm sorry to interrupt you but, but, but lot wants to jump in. go ahead. i think it really would be nice of you to answer the question that you were asked. and actually every country has the right to have an army. and the fact that ukraine has won and is defending it, is actually something that every single country should be doing not surrounding foreign countries and threatening them with cyber attacks. like a vehicle attack,

killing abduction, please answer the question that our co person has asked you. i would, i'm also very curious to hear how you will answer it. richard, did you want to respond to that? well, to the specific question. yes, i do believe at the moment that there's shelling which has been taking place that has been mis attribution. but that my point is that later you must understand the context, which is the fact that our best a, our ukranian citizens, of course, now $700000.00 have national passports. but i'm astonished that care has not been able to talk to its own people. it wants these parts back, it wants these 2 parts of these 2 are blessed back, and yet they refuse to talk to their own people. citizens whom they claim are their own. it's a, it's a, it's been a dead end. and so clearly at the moment, we're in a moment of extraordinary war fever. so there's, there's information and lies, and going on a natural forces being allowed to mobilize rush, of course,

apart from those in, in the villages are on their own territory. and can i just mentioned one other thing about the music security conference. richard richard, let me, let me, let me, let me let you get to that point in a bit because we are starting to run out of time. and i do want to ask peter a question here, peter, from your perspective, is it counterproductive for the us and for nato to continue to state that they believe that an invasion is imminent? i mean, is that helped or has that hurt? listen, once again, we're an uncharted waters and even washington will admit that this sort of sort of a megaphone diplomacy that they've been gauged. it has not been tried to that same extent before all the history will judge in the next few days, weeks, months. we will know my take is that, you know, we're probably still not looking at a full country innovation simply because goodness, probably, and capable of doing it right now. it's going to come with

a very high cost. we are in for the long haul, for as long as like witness and power, you will not be at peace with an independent ukraine. you have to understand that. so when, while while i say that about the traditional policy, i will say that there is a, there needs to be a note of caution inserted into the sanctions policy into something the few on the hill. donald trump's former security advisor said that, you know, when it comes to the sanctions policy, whether the signaling that sanctions are coming regardless of what he does, may backfire simply because russians will thing. well we have nothing that was let go ahead. so there needs to be some note of caution. there is, i'm seeing a somewhat optimistic sign that blood, that mr. lab rolls and, and blinking are supposed to meet on the 24th of february. so the hope is that nothing will happen before then. and for as long as diplomats are talking, the guns are staying silent, let me just 11 more minute just to be for once again. it was the previous speaker

said when the continuous harping on the she was not quite in, garbage has refused stomach. and again, to speak with ostensible people of the boss, there are no people of the box to speak with. these are the regimes that, that are controlled directly from moscow. and the part of the strategy is to push this mince agreement down ukraine roads, which will be the same. it will tend to can't amount to you can script a bit capitulation through other less painful means for russia. short of an invasion means means ah, a stop to ukraine's esther asians are to have our independence foreign policy to become a member of nato and to become a member of the you. a mother, let me ask you a similar question to what i just asked peter, from your perspective, are there inherent risks to this campaign by the us, by nato, by other western countries? i mean, if these warnings about an eminent invasion continue to grow more dire and an

invasion does not happen. what does that do? well, is discrediting and b and state system at the end of the day. and i'm an international global level internally what it does to the citizens who are the victims of this type of diplomacy or a gander, as you will. i is actually quite, quite heavy. people are exhausted, people are terrified. and actually the level of anti american rhetoric has been raising in the couple in the past few weeks, particularly, not only because of this and a bundle of information and the addressing of which date it's going to happen, which is completely ridiculous. and also the, the, the perception that you train has been abandoned by its main western allies by them pulling out of kias by pulling out of this special monitoring mission of the

o. s. c. e. rather than really supporting and, and calling more expert into ukraine into key is the fact that they have pulled out and have no place themselves in view. not all of them, but, but most western allies. i've either already moved to view or considering doing so, which again creates this perception then is going to be so much easier to kill the people in the city. and because we don't have our allies to protect us, they should have sent more eserman monitors, rather than pulling them out. richard, i know you how to point you wanted to finish making. i'll let you do that, but i also want to ask you when it comes to the fact that the u. s. and that other western countries have been so public and sharing this intelligence that they have gathered. how unusual is that or? well, i mean its intelligence we know in negotiate and business, the intelligence kept being fed out into the public domain. and we know as being

even admitted by some washington officials, that the media is complicit together with implement circles information from the security services, which is as we saw with a alleged collusion between to him and gotten in 2016, it turned out to be utterly false. and i'm not saying it's false. now, i'm simply saying it's part of this new method. so there's nothing particularly new about suddenly the anglo american can use of an intelligent credit to the media to achieve a certain political effects. i. so the larger issue going to just very i some in scott, i think one of the previous speakers was very honest and saying that min skirts and the implementable then a simple question emerges every 6 months. the european union has been smashing sanctions onto russia for its failure to fulfillment, and now we have it quite openly. well, cave had no intention ever, and i understand the arguments by the way, why care wouldn't like to implement me,

could play it was a forced solution and there's other issues involved. but at least let's be honest and i'm glad to head on this to emerging. that when school is not going to be implemented fine, let's find some other format in which we can return, move on bus parts to your thing in solving a while and showing that the issues within the don't best. you know that there's a fair solution in that society. so the munich security conference to failure way back in february 2017. exactly 15 years ago when put in, made that famous speech denouncing unipolar world and all the rest. the fact that at that moment there was unity against him and everybody was so proud that pushing to tend to do as a wedge between the partners and look, it's not a question of do i think wages are unity this unit at the moment is the unity on the much a fully that's listen to the serious argue and i absolutely with the previous speaker, the diplomatic process is continuing with the meeting hope for the end of next week

. peter, we just have about a minute 30 seconds left. let me just ask you when it comes to the pro kremlin disinformation machine, how does the domestic disinformation operation differ from the foreign media operation? if you're asking about ukraine, right? yes. ok, well yet, oh, so far i've been with what we've actually seen has been sort of tension between ukraine, the ukranian central government and the american administration. the bye bye of the by the white house. the black reporting has been at haines to actually keep ukrainians. com and up to till now, even now that tensions have risen. but there's much more concern now including on the streets of ukrainian cities, the government, the ministry of defense continues insisting that they're not seeing signs of an imminent invasion, let alone all by occupation of the entire country. so there is a little bit of attention that the viewers should be aware of us. all right,

well we have run out of time to we're going to have to leave the conversation there . thanks so much. all of our guest ladder was litski richard, soccer and peter, on my of and thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time a visiting our website, al jazeera, dot com, and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also do the conversation on twitter. our handle is an a j inside story. for me, how much i'm doing the whole team here. bye for now. ah. and with

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i care about how the us engaging with the rest of the world. we're really interested in taking you into a play. you might not visit otherwise and feel as if you were there. ah. ready your child is there with me, so he'll robin in doha, reminder of our top stories. russia has extended its military deployment in bella, rue, citing an escalation of tension that the ukrainian border around $30000.00 russian soldiers have been carrying out exercises in belarus. meanwhile, mother to say there's been more shelling in the disputed region of east in ukraine, russian back separatist se villages have been hit while ukraine's army says it's positions of come under fire. around 2000 cease fire violations were recorded in don bass on saturday. both sides.