and to them, you can see there the police reaction to them. those are not police officers. those are some form of local moscow swat team type commandos being sent in to take away those protest as protests significantly taking place in moscow. anderson petersburg as well. ah, 17 says he has gmc, you're watching al jazeera with continuing coverage of eastern ukraine. russian forces of launched a full scale invasion of ukraine. missile strikes of it. multiple cities, dozens have been killed on both sides. vs fighting is ongoing. along most of ukraine's border with russia, the russian president, vladimir putin says the aim is to demilitarize ukraine. who post in your state and

you think you should supposed to be too much we were not given any other chance to act otherwise. in the security area, we couldn't react any other way. all or tries came to no result and we didn't move any further. i'm not even an inch when we had to do it because the risks were very serious for the whole existence of our country. secondly, we totally understand which world we're living in, which and we're ready for what's about to happen with sanctions. and western leaders are preparing more sanctions against russia, the european union, and the g. 7 countries both saying the measures will have massive and severe consequences for moscow. later today, we will present a package of massive and targeted sanctions to european lead us for approval. with this package, we will target strategic sectors of the russian economy. by blocking the axis to technologies and markets, the key for russia,

we will weaken russia's economic base and its capacity to modernize. and in addition, we will freeze russian assets in the european union and stop the axis of russian banks to european financial financial markets. thousands of people have been trying to leave ukraine, a group say they feel quotes, massive civilian casualties. the red cross was the humanitarian impact. could be quotes. frightening to contemplate, hundreds of people have been arrested at anti war protests across russia. today, there were demonstrations and at least 20 cities, including st. petersburg and moscow. protests against the russian invasion of ukraine are also being held in berlin. b route, televi eve and london. those are your headlines. the news continues here. after inside story, we will keep you all across all the developments in ukraine. when we come back from the news from, ah russia

at walk, it's president says it demilitarize inc. and d knots define ukraine. european leaders call it an outrageous invasion. how far will putin go? can the way stop him? this is inside story. ah, hello and welcome to the show i am, sam is a than when it is a war that no one you would think would have wanted. but overnight, russian forces began a full scale invasion of ukraine. it's the largest military action in europe since

the 2nd world war. already casualties are mounting on both sides. russian forces are attacking major cities and military bases. ukraine says it's ready to fight and repel the incursion. nato has activated its defense plans while western powers, promising harsh sanctions against moscow's economy. some ukrainians are fleeing to neighboring. poland. i so i should say. it is. i care about. he crane is in you. great. you are, you came here to see this happening to the countries devastating i discovered somebody so evil president vladimir putin announced the invasion on a televised pre recorded address, telling ukrainian troops to go home or face the consequences. but his away was mimi didn't last, larry dozier,

we urge you to lay down arms immediately and go home. i will explain all service men of the ukrainian army who comply with this requirement can freely leave the area of military actions and returned to the families claims in the when you put the l. sampling a shirt. however, we try to stop us and further create threats to our country to our people should know that russia's response will be immediate and lead you to such consequences that you have never faced in your history. we are ready for any outcome kinda new as president joe biden released the statement calling russia's attack on ukraine unprovoked and unjustified sang president putin has chosen a premeditated war that will bring a catastrophic loss of life and human suffering. russia alone is responsible for the death and destruction this attack will bring, and the united states and its allies and partners will respond in a united and decisive way the world will hold russia accountable. nato secretary

general, yan stalsen book, says the alliance wants to prevent a conflict, but is ready to defend itself. nato's core task is to protect and defend all hours . there must be no room for miscalculation or misunderstanding. an attack on wong will be regarded as an attack on all this is our collective security guarantee. to day the north atlantic council decided to activate over the fence vance. at the request or top military commander general, told walters. this is a prudent and offensive step to protect and shield our la nations during this crisis. and it will enable us to deploy capabilities on forces, including the nato response force to where them are needed. ah,

let's bring in our guests into the show. we have joining us from kia, said again to catch. he's the c o of ukraine invest and ukrainian government agency in moscow. vladimir softening cove, a senior research associate at the russian academy of sciences. and from washington, d. c. lawrence called a former us assistant secretary of defense. welcome to all of you in the show. if i could start with the survey, then what do you make so gay of putin's military goal? what's the thinking in kiev? do they think he is going to try and take over the whole country? well, is the beginning of a full scale invasion of ukraine. this is a very dangerous thing. and we have seen already victims of this invasion and not only key for the border was attacked even cities like 6 or 700 kilometers

away from key cities in the west of ukraine, where our talks by russian missiles. so let me be very clear. this is beginning of the european genocide to the war of a very big scale. but ukraine will not beg doll. we are fighting back and at the moment, dropped slides around tears and already russian planes took down and tanks as well and helicopters. so this is a very serious case, and this is a very serious case, not only for ukraine, this is a very serious case for the whole war, right? because if russia will not be stopped now, this can spreads toward the europe and so on the wall. so let me be clear about that. okay, talk about russia. let's get the perspective from moscow now. and i want to ask vladimir, when a president, putin announces operation, he said, the goal is not to occupy, but to demilitarize and di nazi fi. how do demilitarize

a country without occupying it while actually that's correct, but 1st of all, i would like to say good afternoon, probably all the cheated watches. and i also, i would like to disagree with my a premium colleague because it sounds like their propaganda actually. and i mean that russia is not aiming at her conquering or even in bathing or something like that of all ukrainian to orient. lasha certainly is not going to kill them more to go to go further. more ascii, put it, if i understand correctly, that the russia is going to the eastern europe. so answering a question, i think that the demilitarization of ukraine could be done when are all the military units. i'm in our military squash shelling of the peaceful citizens offer . ah burnett's and logan ste. republic i will, will, will, bit will, will be

a will be eliminated and glen. there will be a situation that nothing would be dangerous for the citizens offer barnett school and the longest republics. so the suggestion seems to be then, are you saying vladimir and your understanding, that putin simply wants to eliminate ukraine's military abilities? that seems a very, i looked at some i looked at replacing that. i mean i, i don't know, actually i, i looked at state governor and they simply understood the law and just knocking your understanding or analysis of the system and just man defending that's right, right. let's bring lawrence colbin lawrence. how long can the ukrainians hold out in the estimations of washington? well, i think they can hold out for a long time and 2 ways. first of all, with their conventional forces, which are much better than they wore in 2014 the last time russia in dated and

witty it with the increasing our equipment that we have given that we have given them. ah, that, ah, you know, makes them more lethal. then the 2nd thing is, even if the russian should prevail at a conventional war. the question then becomes, ah, you know, what about an insurgency? the ukrainians have been organizing an insurgency for a while. and as the russian found out in afghanistan, and we did to, it's one thing to win the conventional battle, but it's much more difficult to control the country. and i guess the real question i'd like to see answer is, what is potent aim here? does he want to incorporate ukraine back into russia? does he want to put in a friendly government out there? and how will he, how long is he willing to pay the cost of dealing with it for the lives? and then of course, with the sanctions that not just europe,

but asian countries like japan, singapore, and taiwan are putting on russia a lot for us to pick her out. then let's go back both. so again, take stock of what's happened. so fossa, again, how much damage have these asked, rightful missile strikes, dealt ukraine's critical infrastructure as far as we know, at this point, electricity still up and running fuel depos as well as the military bases. of course. well, we have seen a tax on our strategic targets, of course, but still ukraine fines back. so our military is, we're getting grady and already given some very good response to russian aggression . so there is no serious effect at the moment on ukraine. and i think that idea of quoting is to make a very quick war and to when quick, this will not happen in ukraine. and let me respond to that nonsense. i apologize for this statement,

but today i can say the said by the russian speaker, ukraine is a peaceful country, and the only one who needs to be in the middle is, was, is the russian federation, and the president of russian federation and his militant trans, this should be put to international tribunal a, as a criminal's against criminal things that they do against humanity. you know, and this is a very serious case. and let me remind you one historical case, the 13th of september, 1938. when this to that region of check republic was given to pistol treated 2 adult hitler. and this is what he was trying to do at the time. so this is very similar, what president is put in doing now. and only one year after 938, this 2nd world war began. so this is what the whole world needs to remember now. so we are very close. we are on the brink of something similar. so they need to beg,

tao, and they need to apologize to the whole world and they will have to be put to prison . how does that say how this goes? let me bring vladimir back in and once again pointing out that to me, i know you're not an official spokes person. you're not an official for the russian government. i'm just asking you for your analysis. does it look like we're going to be looking at the sort of scenario which a lot of western intelligence agencies are warning about that there will be an initial period of strikes as strikes missile strikes, followed maybe a week or so later by a wider deployment of ground troops? is that what we're looking at? no, i don't think so. actually, my analysis is sir, that sir? the will, there are strikes her target that strikes against military installations in your brain and her after that will be the air that, that is a limitation of all the special operation. and after that, ah,

there will be the, and all for the military operation. i am not contemplating that. there will be occupation, so called occupation, offer ukrainian territory. either you have to jump in right to me or do you really think it's possible though, that i may put and will pull out russian troops completely? well, completely out of ukraine might be a toyota, given a situation in don batson and crimea, but at least not be on hand. so it's on latin crimea advisor. i'm sorry for my interrupt as the police and sorry for my interaction. we're not talking right now about bon boss and bung boss and logan's republics, because this is independent states who are asking, formerly for the support and defense for, from russian federations. all this is according to national law, was in accordance with article 51. but 8 are well international, according to international law, with a lot would dispute whether lou ganske and,

and don yeske are indeed independent republics. we know russia has recognized them, but, but moving beyond that, let me bring lawrence back in. i mean, a situation you were hinting at ala afghanistan or iraq. do you think lawrence put him, would be weary of sending his troops deep into ukraine, especially as we get towards weston ukraine. is it likely that we will see a situation where russian troops will be pulled back to the eastern o and, and southern parts of ukraine at least, rather than getting and brought into some kind of long term career conflict? well, you could see that, but then what is your goal? who's going to be running ukraine? will you still have zalinski there? will you try and put your owner? ah, you know, leader in there and will the ukrainian people support m a not created? and sergeant, that's the real question. because if you're not willing to go all the way militarily, ah, then what do you do if you haven't achieved your objective today?

we've seen, of course, this massive operation. an invasion of that many a calling an invasion of ukraine. does this mean the end of the road for diplomacy? let's not forget. just a few days ago, there was talk of even perhaps a bite and potent meeting. all that seems very distant. now, i'm not presenting ministry, offering the purpose of ukraine. so, and ministry reporting the 1st can give you a proper political statement to bomb diplomatic measures that can be taking or to be in taking a demand. what i can states as, as a ukrainian, mostly because my main job is to attract investments and promote economy and ukraine. but today i'm a narrow ukrainian who was affected. my mom who is a 73 years old, was walcott today, and was very cannot well today, even from keith by an error response siren. and there was

a mis style going over the city to have one of the targets. so this is a crime. i am a lawyer, i'm international lawyer. this is crime against humanity. so we need to focus on death rather than think about what can be done and the grant will not russian military have their plans, ukrainian military strong and will, will fight and back. so it's still about military and they have their own class, but we need to be clear. decline has taken place. ok, and let me go back to lawrence called lawrence western countries have announced another round the sanctions. how effective do you think they'll be? russia has been on the sanctions for a long time, has an it yes, but never to this extent. and i think one of the big thing is when the germans canceled the north stream pipeline, because how russia makes a lot of it's a money by selling energy abroad. and if they can't do that,

that's going to have an impact on, on their economy. keeping them away from the international banking system will make it more difficult for them to conduct business. ah, they have to export things like wheat are people still going to buy that? so it'll, they're going to pay a price. the question is how long is potent willing to do that and how long. busy will the russian people do? and if you go to a ground war, they're going to be lots of casually, probably be more on the ukranian side. but you're talking about 5 to 10000 russian soldiers being killed. and don't forget, the russians still have conscription so that these people are not volunteers. a lot of them have been forced in there. so what we need to do is find a face saving way out before my colleague from ukraine pointed out, this thing gets out of hand, and it'll be a disaster. let's take the view from moscow. in your analysis,

vladimir russia has launch reserves of about $600000000000.00. that's about 40 percent or more of its g d p. that's more reserves. the most countries, how far will that go to cushioning? the effect of western sanctions are, do you think people, the policy makers in moscow worried about western sanctions? i think yes, i think yes and oh ah, there are 2 actually are things that logical of speaking ah, which are going after your question 1st to 3rd thing as that there was go actually has used to live on go sanctions and somehow ah, russian government actually managed to our re deploy economic resources and financial resources and got these cert prominent sanctions which have been going on for fall ready, 8 years sir, after the 2014. and 2nd, 2nd element these that sir. ah,

i think her probably there will be some was ending of economic condition. so in russia, and because of the exchange rate to ruble to dollar, you know, that a rouble is now declining and ball is rising. but eventually, eventually russia has a lot of so called sovereign resolve, just to make a vague currency intervention, foreign currency interventions, as a thinker, eventually this by the fact will be again eliminated. this is my analysis, so. all right, let's get sir, go from care of. so, so again, it sounds like the leaders in ukraine are not entirely satisfied with the western response and they, they think western countries should do far more while we are thankful to all leaders, all it has been done so well thankful to our neighbors like it's been a lot of countries that provided weapons to crane. we also thankful to european

union the american transport sanctions. but we need to remember that this is a russian operation under a false flock. as was right, we stated by president biden. and the one way to effect russia is to limit economic and still cannot corporation with russia at the moment than this has to be done quick when it's to remember that one 3rd and it just supplies to europe comes from russia. and all this money is spent on this often energy is being used to produce weapons and to act as a tyrant, you know, in a 21st century, and to make a war indispensable pure. so this is unacceptable. so as i said, we want to see very strong international response and very quickly from there. so respond what kind of international as opposed to think most ukrainians would like

to see beyond the west has already done? well, we of course will be keen to see some military supports. but as we have, you mean beyond applying weapons because it's unlikely what the western leaders already said, they're not sending, they're truly understand to you. we understand that this is a life. we want to see military support in different terms. but we also want to see real serious function, some ukraine to break down their economy. no, thank you. right. yes. on russia, on roger, of course, he has not for the sake of bring, get kind of, i don't know dad's situation to the people of russia, but to stop them using money for military purposes. and this is what needs to be done quick, because i can tell you that predators, they do not stop themselves predators. they need to be stopped. oh, let me take the view back again to moscow and ask vladimir in your analysis sliding

the if the west does succeed in putting the squeeze on on russia over ukraine. one of the chances that maybe russia will find other sensitive spots. soft spots to have a go back at the west have a go back at nato. may be in areas like the balkans is talk of russian leading bosnian serbs being involved in a war in bosnia. i if i understand you correctly in the, in what are the russian so the actions are no other than what they will be involved in the conflict. so in the conflicts and boss there are while in baltic states, emma correct man, the standing or maybe not involvement may assist, shall we say or facilitate conflicts. that would be a problem in a burden for nato in places like the balkans. yes, no, no, i don't think so. my mind l as a sexual that that there will be no such interference on the russian side are to go to other the other frozen conflicts are not frozen. even life conflicts like,

ah, those which are going in, in balkan saw their conflicts which are going, i mean, internal crisis in baltic states. i think that this is actual look, this is not the purpose that this is not the purpose of most of the this is just, ah, ah, the situation where there was a loss. loss of confidence on behalf of moscow, in my opinion, towards the west, and especially to watch lou canyon authorities because moscow has suggested than just integrating myself. moscow has suggested any peaceful means to prevent the situation, the situation which is having now in your brain. all right, i think we've got a couple of minutes going to try and spit in between both guests. we got final thought in survey. how much of a game changer do you see this for the whole of europe?

let me react again to that statement. it's a typical russian propaganda. if you listen to puts in statements, i cannot call him president mr. at the moment, even debt. if you listen to put in statements like 10 years ago, 8 years ago, he was saying that there is no way that we will take crimea back. then he was saying that there is no way that we would at these to ukraine or anyway in ukraine . just couple of days ago they were saying there is no way, right? that's where we'll talk key it right now. they are saying there is no way we will not talk well can. so any other state deficit they can do this, right? we got about the information and ours. all right, we got about 9 seconds, then. ok, let me give also a final well might be less than 6 seconds now to vladimir, vladimir, why should the world believe russia? isn't this a bit of a game changer in international politics?

my name is say, you know, invading a sovereign state that i know know in the basics of international law and the chances. well actually i think that the vent charlie, my belief that eventually the diplomacy will win. what i mean to say that there are there well disruptions and violations on behalf of your regular authorities, all the people in the nest and logan's republics. so let's forget about our international law. let's go to the diplomacy. ok, we're out of time. going to have to leave it that. so let's thank our guests. thank our guests very much in kiev and moscow for coming and sharing their thoughts. you know, you have very different perspectives on this. what we appreciate. hearing them survey to catch flooding new sultani cove and lawrence cole and thank you to for watching . you can see the show again, any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion head over to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story.

can also join the conversation on twitter. our handle barry's act ha, inside story. from me, sammy's aidan, for now replying, ah ah, the rip hotel is the most i tell that i've ever stated in the biggest box you have ever seen had an exploit would have taken out the hotel? this was germany. we loved it when it was built and we loved it even when it was

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jazeera ah al jazeera with . ready ready this is al jazeera, ah, hello again. i'm peach adobe with our continuing coverage as russia as a tax ukraine. we're across all the developments here on al jazeera. ah, russia invades ukraine by land, by and by c major cities and military bases have come under fire. president vladimir putin as a consequence, he's never see.