happens to me, the president, the difference, i agree, and that even the minister ready to bad response with people. and we're asking everyone to defend shiny, because it's only if he gets justice, we will get justice among those claims that he has made in this fundamental rights petition is a fact that the military intelligence and the state intelligence had colluded to mislead criminal investigators. before several months before the easter attacks, what he says is they had been wilfully with all the information they've been planting, evidence to mislead the investigation. so all of these things have sent a lot of concern. there's been a lot of claims and kind of claims out there. but this petition from one of the lead investigations kind of concrete eyes of those concerns. the body of cricket legend shane warner's arrived back in his hometown of melbourne. one died last friday age 50 to one on holiday in co, summer with highland, he had

a suspected half attack and jennifer disease. one is considered one of the greatest boulders of all time, is the 2nd highest. we could take her in history with 700 and 8th. i take you through some of the headlines here now just hear it. now. russia says there were no patients inside the hospital bombed on wednesday. and that strike destroyed the maternity in children's unison. the deceased ukrainian city of mary paul, 3 people were to have been killed. the mayor of kiev says, half the city's population is flagged bents, about 2000000 people. a week the large russian convoy of tanks has been heading towards the ukrainian capital, sparking fears of an assault the highest level talk since russia invaded ukraine. 2

weeks ago of ended with little find a progress turkeys, foreign minister hosted his ukrainian and russian counterparts in the southern city of talia. european union laid is a meeting in the sy in france. they're expected to consider new sanctions on russia . are also about to discuss ukraine's request to join the block french president emanuel mac wrong as ruled out opening membership talks while ukraine is still at war. the united states vice president says, praise poem for taking in more than a 1000000 ukrainian refugees. all of it was so camera harris also promised to increase nato support it's inside story. now stay with us here on our 20 from the london broadcast center, to special guests in conversation prestige is all about trying to get

a superior reputation, unprompted uninterrupted. where we find the most profound similarity is not actually in our classes living relative in much more distant connection, intimately reflecting on the issues of our time. they're going to be a cooperative species economy picking each other and threatens each other on the side studio be unscripted. coming soon on, al jazeera has rushes invasion of ukraine rages, millions of refugees are seeking safely outside the country. european countries are welcoming them so far, but how many ukrainians can they receive and could the signal a new migration policy? this is inside story. with

hello, welcome to the program. i'm has them seek out the russian invasion of ukraine is in his 3rd week with no sign of a letter. the united nations is warning, the humanitarian crisis could grow and affect millions more. united nations high commissioner for refugees says more than 2000000 people have now fled to fighting. it's been described as europe's worst refugee crisis since world war 2. people are crossing to neighboring countries to the west, such as romania, slovakia, hungry and more dover. but most of ukraine's refugees are in poland. the government there has said to host them all, it will need more money than the e. u is offering another 235000 people have gone to other european countries. of the conflict in ukraine is affecting large numbers of children as well. according to unicef, more than a 1000000 ukrainian refugees minus many on accompanied either separated from their parents or sent away by those forced to stay behind. the un has warned that

unaccompanied children are a greater risk of suffering violence and abuse. it's urged host countries to ensure their safety the well, let's bring in our guess now from the border town of seamus. matthew, it in poland. matthew salt. marsh is the head of news and media for the united nations high commissioner for refugees from mexico city. we have camille cause a senior policy analyst that migration policy. and joining us from oxford in the u . k. alex on the bets a professor of force migration and international affairs at oxford university is also an author of wealth of refugees, how displace people can build economies good to have you with us. so matthew, so much let me start with you how. how bad is the situation where, where you are right now, we were talking about a total of 2000000 people who fled in the space of 2 weeks. just

talk to us about the current conditions there for you cleanings and the biggest challenges they are facing. well, as you said, the numbers are now quite comfortably over 2000000 and holland in particular, has been very generous. and there's about 1400000 refugees who have come to this country and significant numbers in those other countries around the region. but also important may increasing numbers have moved on to western europe following the implementation agreements are temporary protection states here today, and she mentioned some little bit quieter and it has been in previous days. we're not entirely sure why that is. one of the factors could be the fact that it's been very cold, the border, which is just 10 or so miles away from me. and so that may have dissuaded people from, from trying to cross. obviously,

it's hard to say exactly how the trends will go, that very much depends on the conflicts and how that evolves within the country. but the immediate needs are obviously food, shelter, warm medical attention. the pose here have been trying to take that away from the border area and the following a modal whereby they will offer sort of full state security services if you like to stay here. so they will get accommodation, don't get medical support and they'll get education. so that's just the kind of policy that we we would advocate and we, we've only well done so far. and what is it, the ordinary people can do to, to, to help the ukrainians beyond the governments and government policy and financial assistance from, from, from the people that they, you've seen there and the biggest needs for them. right now, there's been

a great out pouring of sympathy throughout europe over this. what can be, what can ordinary europeans to low? well, here in harland, in particular, the local and local humanitarians have come out on mass is going up to the board to help with information, to help with transport. you see them at the train station providing what's after i'm providing that information that they'll need to decide where they can go next. in terms of the public knowledge in europe. i think initially we would probably say the financial side is important. there are a number of appeals, more money will be needed, those appeals will increase. that's very important than the public, as you said, have been incredibly generous as refugees increasingly move to the west to other countries. there are other things that people don't be volunteering, helping with education translation again, fundraising with helping refugees to really find se and integrate in those society

because unfortunately, this is not going to be very short term. it is going to be a bit longer. we think deb camila cause matthew mentioned there at the beginning of december, you temporary protection directive, which is which has been activated now. it was an activated back in 2015 during the refugee crisis there. when we saw people coming from escaping the war in syria and iraq and afghanistan, why is that? why is it being activated now? so i think 1st a bit of background on best temper protection directive because it was adopted after the war, back in the ninety's with this idea that you should be kind of in the case of another large. so the refugees and as i mentioned, you know, as a result of its activation last week for the people flying the work in your brain and access to a range of rights. residents, your right,

right to work right through the key should how things, social welfare. and these are the theme, right? her or human, the beats and a key factor in this decision is that it a boy creating another mass backlog in the european africa system. as several european official, i said in the past week, it's got the red tape and in a way it's saved national with them from being completely completely overwhelmed. and as you mentioned, they have been discussion in the past to trigger this directive into 11 after the rough brain into a 1516. but for us, are you migration and us and policy, it felt like it would never been activated. it's been a bit forgotten. and yet last week you members be came together even the one my pollen, an injury that have repeatedly opposed hosted refugee and so dirty. are you there green that the needed this kind of them to respond to what looks like the one

of the largest, these places crisis in world war 2 in europe, alexander bets just more broadly speaking. what do you think of the political implications of all this, this influx of refugees that we've seen from ukraine just in the, in the last 2 weeks and, and what it reveals about, about europe did the response that we've seen for him. we should celebrate the great solidarity we've seen across europe with ukrainian refugees. it's been fantastic to see signs of commitment and that they solidarity everyday humanitarian response across poland, railway stations. that's something that's been very important. i think of course behind that this isn't the type of response we see to all refugees in europe is not the type of response that we saw towards the g or afghan refugees. and equally we see significant selectivity. so african refugees seeking to come across the central

mediterranean often face drowning detention deportation. so it was the hope is that this moment solidarity public support. busy for refugees can be carried across 2 of the refugee populations. i think one of the challenges is that while the humanitarian response short it's been very strong. the long term challenge will be, can we make this a sustainable response? can we provide the support as needed to frontline countries like poland, hungary, moldova, so that they can sustain hosting refugees the medium to long term? can they get access to financial support? to buttress that public services, health care education will be put under significant pressure and housing for instance. and can we create a viable relocation scheme that europe has very rarely been able to agree on to relocate some refugees from those countries across the 27. even the states or

beyond. so i think there's going to be questions about how we can make sustainable, how we can plan for the medium to long term. but i think this hug this hope that this could be a moment where the european union gets its refugee and asylum policies. right. can build in some of the opportunities for form that were missed in the altima, the 201516 crisis. yeah, let's put some of that to to matthew. then i mean this, this sustainability issue is a major one, isn't it? i mean, many, many of the cranes, the economies that have arrived there, they may be getting basic filter and housing and food for now for the next couple of weeks perhaps. but what about the next 2 months, but what, what, what happens beyond that? yeah, i mean, let's be honest, most government in the region 3 weeks ago would have anticipated huge scale of human movement across borders. of course, people were aware of the tensions, but i don't think anyone was ready for a scale. and as i said earlier,

the governments have really stepped out in each of those countries and leading that response, i think as things evolve and the weeks go on, they are looking beyond the immediate government. they're looking to be you, of course, for fun. they're looking to the united nations and they're looking to n g o, an international and g o to come in with expertise specialists who can support and areas like, like child support, education and livelihoods. and then to, you know, obviously to, to try and raise more money which would be, which would be extremely important. we've put out an appeal other other part. so united nations have put out appeals and obviously the needs financially and in terms of expectations are going to be absolutely enormous. they already, but they're only going to camila cause we mentioned at the top that was refugee

crisis, the europe, racine, since the 2nd world war. what implications is it's going to have overall policy towards migration is, is this going to, is this going to force fundamental rethink? i think it's really, really too early to say and, well, i had mentioned over i think there's really specificity to this crisis that also explains why countries like injury, poland. i'd be more welcoming to refugees from, you know, to people for ukraine coverage, previous presses and, and, you know, really be a different and their response at the polish border converge. what we're seeing just a month ago, and at the border with bell, or it's with people and you know, refugee coming from, i've gone in and syria or iraq at it and what the response was. and i think the specificity of this crisis is that this bit of the war in europe. and so in a way, there is no the way for european government,

but to respond. and to develop this set up this mechanism. this is also a war that's a results and aggression from, from russia. and i think for countries like holland, it can bring back some, some painful memories need reactivate. so have this need for, and for european unity and that we've seen in the past week. and then lastly, if this perception may be that this refugees are different. and again, the report that we've seen from holland that had so far as the one port for millions of people playing from ukraine. it's very different from the very, you know, just take responses that we've seen at the bell or sport, or just just 6 months before alexander. let's talk a little bit more about the differences the, the, you, the, you're seeing and how countries have responded to this. i mean, obviously power and as, as taking the brunt this in, in the short term as far as the number of ukrainians that they've taken in. but i

mean, what about the ones that are not sort of pulling their weight so to speak. yet we need responsibility sharing across europe, and this has been one of the challenges spaced historically by the common european asylum system. the responsibility is allocated through circle in system to the front line countries. so in the 201516 crisis, greece was a front line country, another frontline countries like hungary took a very restrictive view, building a raise, a wife and trying to present access to that territory. now what we needed to do, and what the european commission is recognized, is that we need to update that system to ensure that there's more consistent responsibility sharing cooperation across the u 27 member states. now this is a moment to put the test to recognize that this to be sustainable. the responsibility con, lie exclusively with poland. and that is

a grad countries that we need to relocate people and share money. but it will take significant resourcing to support public services to build jobs and livelihoods opportunities. one of the positive things is we got learning that we can take from the after month 201516, germany in particular, which took the overwhelming majority of syrian refugees arriving in europe, provided huge investment to vocational training employment integration that took time to payoff but over time to see more and more syrians and to labor market in germany and integrate socio economically, we can learn from that and have a relocation scheme and financial support and viable opportunities to improve public services employment opportunities. not only the ukrainian refugees, but also local host communities in the areas most effective. you got the best possible chance to have cooperation across europe,

but also in she'll crucially that local receiving communities a still as responsive, enthusiastic and committed to refugee rights one year, 2 years, 3 years as they all day. yeah, alexander brings up a big point. good point there, camille, about about the germany model in 2015, 2016. they took, they took so many of the refugees from, from syria. i think it was over a 1000000 of them and they managed to integrate them into, into german society. so this can be done content. yeah, and i think here it's really critical to avoid the perception that european from government control. and we know this has been a major chart coming into 1516. and they could define whether, you know, all the popular support that we see not continue in the next month. and that, you know, i think here and question and bethel so less then from, from 21516 and something that's jeremy as being the leader on is how do we make

sure that this right to work this to employment is effective. and so again, a lot of tools have been deployed in care must produce credential recognition that we're seeing ref basic now. and while we're all focused on the rational risk, you know, the emergency and you know, be the, make the make this our instrument that has never been used before in europe work. we need to be thinking about the medium to long term consideration because that something may be that into affected 16. we didn't think about early enough matthew, so much. i mean, as i mentioned, there is so many, so many people coming in such a short time. are you getting a sense now a tool that, that the various authorities are getting a handle on this or could you expect it to continue to get worse?

very difficult say right now, obviously that depends on events in ukraine and the intensification back. but in terms of the government response, we think it has been exemplary. of course, you know that there are, there is going to be an element of chaos when you're dealing with the scale of movements. but if you look at the case of poland, you've already got the office of housing. we're starting to roll out very soon, cash assistance refugees here in poland and then that will go in other countries working with some other comments as well that talking about vocational and medical training, recognition of qualifications ukrainian. and i think that's important because it helps the host country as well. that may have been something of a labor loss or a brain drain in poland in particular, in the last 5 or 10 years. so going back to the example of germany, this could also be an opportunity for poland to re scale and to, to get

a lot that hadn't come over from ukraine. unfortunately, if you look at it from the other side, it leaves the country ukraine in a very difficult position because so much about talent that workforce and young people will have, will have come across and the cost of the male population at the moment as united are engaged in combat camila cars. what. what implications is this going to have for, for asylum policy going forward? yeah, i think i, yeah, i think it's early, it's too early to bed. and again, i think the key, the key factor is going to be how perceive the history is. and i think one thing i want to add also is we've talked about this yesterday, she kind of the temper protection directive. and what we're seeing on the ground is need to register people very quickly with ethnic. i mean that was never used

before. and that has involve specific registration system for people who are coming and also relying on human kind of them that have been set up. please do a 15 and 16 such as you see that and i'm really helping out the countries i need to do this registration. so i think in a way, we're seeing a lot of lessons learned on how to do better thus that we've done in the past. and hopefully this didn't have indication for us women migration policy in europe. but i really think we need to understand that this is a specific crisis comfort you others to treatment. that's your best the case. yeah . what, what you will be on that alex on the batch. this is, this is something very specific. and the, the whole issue of whether there needs to be a broader policy changes is something,

perhaps a bit more further into the future. and i think europe is needed to change its policy response to sign of immigration for a long time. and this might be the catalyst for that change. i think there is obviously something unique about this context of conflict on the borders of europe . but we have seen moments in the past parallel, as we've already heard during the 1990 s, with the conflicts bosnia and kosovo. we saw mass influx situations into europe, and they were the moments that triggered significant innovation in european asylum systems. they created the temporary protection directive in 2001 for instance, that is now being invoked as we've heard the 1st time since its creation. so i think it, there are moments like this that we recognize the need to update. the human displacement is going to be one of the defining challenges the 21st century that we live in an increasingly and secure world. and that we have to have national and regional and global systems that are adapted reality. so i think we shouldn't

necessarily see this as, as just a one off. it is possible that we will have all the major drivers of displacement including to europe. and we need to ensure that we prepare for now respond to the immediate crisis, but also have systems of responsibility sharing that can endure. that is also important to recognize that regions can learn from one another. so dealing with mass in luck, situation to something that regions beyond europe, a lot of experience with in africa for instance, there are been large scale responses to movement. so south, in these refugees, somali refugees that involves supporting public services, supporting livelihoods, employment creation, both refugees and house communities very recently in latin america. the venezuela situation is when we can learn from colombia has taken in similar numbers of refugees to those in poland and it very quickly provided access to public services, a temporary status for the right to work. and so i think there's

a lot of learning that can take place, and this is a moment where we can update i, european refugee response, hopefully not only for the situation, but others in future. matthew so much. what are some of the logistical challenges perhaps, that your organization has, has been encountering communication down there? if that's been difficult to what is, what are some of those challenges really inside the brain, there are huge logistical challenges. we just started in received by the convoys of a across the border into the western part of the country and then trying to get that out in the more complex affected areas. the teams that we have have been trying to get out when they come. it's not always costing safe to do so, and they're trying to start with monitoring to locate where internally the spice people are set up shelter structures and then bring the basic support to them on

this side of the board. and i think the challenge in the 1st week was the sheer scale of arrivals. people receive a crossing through structures, want put up in advance of that and not people what we're just moving on without being traced or without the authority of knowing where they're going. so trying to bring in a little bit of older it's about you mentioned children and child protection trying to bring in more specially getting placed in a needed sense identification and tracing and so on. yeah. so that's why it's really we're gonna have to leave it there. thanks very much. all 3 of you, matthew, so much camila cause and alexander best. thanks so much for being on. and so i story. thank you. as always watching or me, you can see this program again any time just go to our website and just, you know, dot com. and for more discussion, go to our facebook page, facebook dot com,

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