the government committee to 0 net emissions by 2050. they were going calls for the federal government to do more to address climate change with parts of the country's east coast deluge by floods this month. and bush fires which ravaged the country 2 years ago. these climate activists haven't given up and considering an appeal in the high court. sarah clark, audi 0, brisbin, australia. ah, this is al jazeera, let's get around up the top stories, the prime ministers of poland, slovenia, and is check. republic are and key if to show solidarity with ukrainians as russia . sheylan continues to hit the capital that the 1st foreign leaders to visit ukraine since russia's invasion began. ukraine's leader says their visit sends a strong message to russia. the beach with the nozzle blue. they are not concerned

about themselves, they are concerned about us. they are here to support us. and this is a necessary friendly stablish and i'm sure with these types of friends with our neighbors are partners. we will be able to win, punish prime minister mateusz man rosky said, what's happening in ukraine is a european issue that needs a collective response. the european union has to do very quickly, a candidate status and more than this hostile invite your grain to the european union and all that the fasick work to defend your homes. we will drive to organize orchards, orchestra, all over the world. we will never leave you alone. we will be with you because we know that you are fighting, not only for your horse, for your freedom, for your security, but also for hours. the mayor key of has warned that ukraine's capital is facing

what he called a difficult and dangerous moment. the 35 out curve he's been imposed on the russian strikes on residential buildings and a metro station which killed 5 people. ukraine says 29000 people were evacuated through humanitarian corridors. on tuesday, most of them left mattie. you pull in about 2000 cars, right, scuse se desperately needed aid supplies are still not reaching the city. a court in moscow to find a journalist, $280.00 for a televised protest on sunday evening. marina. oh, see any cova ran on to the set of a live bulletin on stay television, holding up a sign, reading stop the war. she's a senior editor at china, one earlier, she released the statement saying she was a shame for promoting what she called criminal propaganda. government court actions a form of hooliganism. those are the headlines inside stories. next. from the al jazeera london, bro consent at t people in thoughtful conversation prestige all about trying to get

a superior reputation, unprompted uninterrupted, where we find the most profound similarities is not actually in our classes, living relatives in much more distant connections. part one of right it will fool and psychology mcclary honey, they're going to be a corporate species. you caught it. he beat each other up and threatened each other all beside duty. ab unscripted on al jazeera, should nato impose a no fly zone over ukraine. as russia intensified air attacks, president vladimir zalinski repeated his call with the western military alliance as blocking airspace would escalate the war. so who's right? this is inside stuart. ah,

hello and welcome to the program. i'm hammer, jim. jim rushes invasion of ukraine is intensifying with air attacks on civilian areas. artillery shells destroyed several buildings around the capitol cave. at least 2 bodies were pulled from the rubble of this apartment block russian. air raids on sunday killed at least 35 people at a military facility near the border with poland. that was the largest attack on western ukraine since the invasion began. homes and hospitals and harkey and mario paul have also been hit. russia denies targeting civilian areas, ukraine's president says the attack show why nato needs to impose a no fly zone to protect civilians. he's at us yells, delusional. you actually, and now i repeats again. if you do not close, i'll skies. it is only a matter of time before russia, missiles full on your territory on the territory of nato, and on the hones of citizens of nato countries. each members of parliament of nato

member estonia are the 1st to demand a no fly zone. some or all aircraft would be banned from flying over certain regions. any pilots violating the order risk being shot down. no fly zones have to be enforced by military means. nato could end up engaging directly with russian warplanes, making the alliance direct participants in the ukraine war. nato in the u. s. previously imposed no fly zones when only one side had a powerful air force such as in iraq, in bosnia, in the 1990s. as well as uring libby, a civil war in 2011. all right, let's go ahead and bring our guests from keith. helena and jenco, a member of the ukrainian parliament and deputy head of ukraine's parliamentary majority from brussels. robert michelle, a senior fellow at the casino, pulaski foundation in poland, is also a former nato official, and from perth and australia, alexi moravia off associate professor of national security and strategic studies at

curtain university. a warm welcome to you all and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. helena, let me start with you today. you and i spoke a little over 2 weeks ago on this program. at that time, you were calling for a no fly zone. what does it mean to you to day that despite repeated calls from president zalinski, and so many others in ukraine, officials in nato have continued to refuse to impose a no fly zone. listen, i will tell you what no fly zone means for ukraine. young, innocent citizens, in its muse, dozen of thousands of innocent ukrainians, woman children, elder people, will be safe. you know that the crimes, the russian occupation troops are now kmiec and in my court and many other stages. but money all. but the situation and money is the worst. today the deputy head of met the pit. you may, your money reported that 20000 civilians were killed in

money open. only 20000 people. do you imagine that? do you imagine the care of this grimes of brush and troops in ukraine and the heat might open heavily from air? the heat is one of the ation. they keep it with it's grass tornadoes and stuff like that. they send miles to the peaceful features of ukraine, 20000 innocent ukrainians killed in only one see to you. and this is all happened because west and not the countries are not ready because they fear, i don't know what they fear. i don't know what they fear, don't be fear thousands of people being killed, but because they still fear to implement no fly zone in ukraine. the crimes against humanity is the murders of 1000 civilians are going on on

a daily basis. i now i'm in ukraine in cave, and then i should tell you that it is horrible. we are going through a nightmare. many sieges, many sieges of your grade are going through a nightmare of it on a daily basis. we hear miles from our windows on a daily basis. if it isn't, the thing that you can't get used to. this is the night tomorrow that we leave in, and no fly zone will definitely help to stole these crimes of russian troops that they could meet. and keep committed in ukraine. this is what no fly zone means. and we believe we say we believe that north liaison should be implemented. otherwise the world will not be a safe place to leave any more one country. if one crazy dictator called booth, you can send his troops to another country, a sovereign

b as full democratic country to start kill civilians. the world is not a safe place any more. and that is why citizens all over the world and politicians should actually start acting well more actively robert, you heard, wouldn't. melina had to say there about all that's going on throughout ukraine. we know nato's position, which is that if they were to try to implement a no fly zone, they believe i could spark a wider conflict. let me ask you how much risk is there from your perspective that attempting to implement? no fly zone over ukraine would spark this far more dangerous conflict? yes or in my 1st of all, my heart and all the grains it's, it's a try to get to attack the exterior. you know, russia has pretty beyond the pay stresses. i'm a former official so i can speak my,

you know, on stick me in a private mean. talk to me, 1st of all, i would not know, find some concept, you know, of the table i, i would consider it more free perhaps, you know, in terms of maybe a partial not like don't concern except in areas mario bold. it's an absolutely, you know, the most urgent example. i mean, it's not, i mean, 1st of all, there is nothing in international law which kind of make this, such a multi legal ukraine has the right and so the, the right last topic, countries to, to help and, and, and also, you know, even rushing to tucker is the real criminal not even putting in a walk at the also you know, the right to protect the doctrine in trying to us. the problem is, however, that right now, you know, there is no consensus and, and it's, you know,

you have to ask this question frankly, to copy those particular in washington, but also in major european. so, you know, when france, my country, poland has often quite a generous, offer. free over $25.00 range. there was a number of countries king, again with the pin countries who started. no, no, that's a bad idea. even though what it was asked. flashy, why the industry? this is the reality that having federal bass, you know, it is true. one has to be, you know, quite sort of wrecked about this, you know, no fly zones. what mean war with russia simpler back would, would bring. not just about sending a few planes here and there, it's neutralizing the actual potential which roster is using. i mean for example the attack on every which is very close to the other you know, took place was from the russian territory. so it would mean actually neutralizing,

you know, a lot of infrastructure and perhaps even attacking, rushing, you know, a russia plays new credit, maybe russia. so, you know, this is very, very serious in, you know, we're talking about the potential world war free. and i can understand, you know, the reasoning provided by a lot of the, just in nato countries. and you need us a 2nd sense that you cannot have no advice on, you know, done by a few countries. but at the same time, the moral case for doing more than it's being done today is growing from where every hour, not even every day, every alexi you must have heard robert, there are talk about the fact that if this escalates, you could have world war 3 on your hands, from your perspective, is there a chance that nato could reverse its decision that they could establish or flies and what would need to happen in order for that to occur?

look, i'm in the, one of the ways how it can be done this all we need to talk about british colleges even if need, that will happen. they typically decide to introduce the no fly zone. now it will be a, it will phase. so then aberrational limitations, it will be limited by that variational range of it's a prop which will have to at the rate from need the airfield. because if they will try to deploy the assets inside your brain, that will be there will be designated as targets by the russian military. so in order to not not to create more escalation and certainly create this threshold beyond wage though, the conventional phase of the work can become an unconventional phase of the war, i think, one way or another. it has to engage in some sort of the way consultation and dialogue is as absurd. maybe as he will, critical is may sound with moscow about introduce in as, as the previous speaker just mentioned, perhaps a partial no fly zone. for example, in the instance, a western parts of your brain, whether it's manageable from,

from the logistical perspective, and where the re, steel limited use of rosters, offensive air power. and, and that may create a degree of sort of the division of responsibility is all the ukraine again, as horrible as it may sound because we're in the middle of a human catastrophe there. and that is us, the can, this over in the country been attacked by a much, much larger country on the, and the, and the more formidable military military on. but if we're not talking about really escalation, the confrontation and not spill in the conflict beyond ukrainian territory, it can be done by the, the, it has to, it has to be done in some sort of, through some sort of consultation communication. and that may not be possible right this moment because i, as far as i understand, open formal communications between russia in late there's been suspended, if not terminated. good alina, i saw you shaking your head. i know you want to jump in. i'm going to you,

i also want to ask you about a point that both robert and alexi raised and there have been growing calls for perhaps the establishment of this idea of a limited no fly zone, perhaps in the west or the country. is that something that would be acceptable to ukrainians? well 1st i would like to ask alexi to stop put in the narrative. this is not confront, this is not crisis. this is worth with 1000 ophelia healed. you should realize that, and you said not, you, you should not use wouldn't narrative because williams narrative deals. if you 3 old people in your grade and you have no obligation and you should launch like good, meet the crimes in the media. second thing, no one shall low, no fly song is not working. like what are you talking about? this is, this is like what?

let us sit safe people in one region and put him and russian occupation. army can get people in all other reduce. is that what you said? yes. can you imagine like, do you even imagine what you are talking about? again, let me remind you that 20000 civilians, meaning woman children, l did people are the civilians where you only you one see to you in muddy old boy, people are stuck there with no food, no water, no medication, people. i a dine because they got to get a treatment. people with diseases would, would, i don't know if gan sirs wouldn't die a bed. they got to get treatment and they had no children imagined that children on european continent a dying because of dehydration. and they do,

i imagine that you met didn't go through, so i did these and then with the experts and you know, i bullied decent duck in that. no one is on is not like something that we should discuss. now. let's think about it later on. when another those on you granules will be dealed. when enough them millions of ukrainians will become refugees. is that what you're talking about really, helena, what we should, helena, may i ask you if nato continues to refuse to establish a no fly zone? what else would you frame like to see in the form of assistance if, if they continue to refuse that not thought is the biggest disappointment of this year? not good is a total disappointment. it's an organization which can not protect anyone which

cannot protect even its own countries. and we should realize that we should not look at not all we should actually communicate and request to help for certain countries, which you realize that both you and russia is a thread, boots you and russia is a threat for the whole world for global security in the majority of european countries in they are, you know, a strategic documents. it's already said, it is already set for years that russia is a threat for global security. it is a threat for european security. and nowadays we see it all. we see that they feel people in ukraine. we see that russians like we have dozens of weaknesses like that. the russian soldiers are going into residential buildings, dragging people from their apartments. and so,

and some of them dad on their yard. this is what we are going through. can you imagine that? imagine this experience. can you imagine how many more years after we finish this war after we win this war? because many more years we will, we would like to read out. also, they can recover from the stress, you imagine beds and we're still discuss when and who should like impose no fly zone. i think it's time for me in a country is helena alliance. how we make this responsive? it's elena, i'm, i'm, this is not the same. i'm sorry to interrupt you. helena. we are starting to run out of time. um, i need to ask alexi a question here. alexi, you talked about the feasibility perhaps of a, of a limited fly zone. i want to ask you about how difficult it would be to achieve an expansive no fly zone o throughout the whole of ukraine. well,

as i am coming back to the point that they raised earlier, 1st of all, it would be difficult. logistically just the sheer operational range need a problem with require a different, a different sort of position. and you blind, for example, seaborne s as in the, in the black sea. it would be impossible, given that durations and that the racial activity of the russian black ship lead on the fact that the russians actually control the entire lexi maritime theater. are trying to neutralize russian defensive voice in russia will automatically be treated by moscow as the declaration of war on russia and in the, in the current circumstances. given the fact that made the 3 s 3 nuclear states, that may pre me the escalation of the conventional to nuclear phase. again, no one knows whether we didn't, will press the button or not press the button,

but certainly the decision makers in brussels. the decision making in pentagon would not be at risk of entertain the option. what if you will not press the button because everyone who is serious and who knows the business of strategic and defense planning. and so at the rate, from what worse case scenario upwards rather than from optimistic scenario, don don wards. so given, given the current state of complete mistrust, given the current state or country is not listening to one another and some of the russia and the west b in on worse terms. i mean, the current situation is much worse than the darkest years old work on from the shop i think need to is simply risk, avoid him. and by doing that, i, so then i completely agree with alina. it's is do an industrial damage to its reputation. it's, it's, it's actually on the mind it's going to be g as the world believes to be the most

powerful defensive alliance. when it, when it doesn't have the political will to challenge russia, or will you brain the is all sideline in with your brain the years. so providing military assistance to your brain, off the years of given promises to eventual membership in the defensive structure and with you provide in similar sort of promises with the eventual membership in the you. and now it seems to be all in the art simply because the russians decide it's on the take an action, the magic action, which is obviously on warranted aggression against the sovereign. a sovereign nation is really, i mean, it really does all on their minds. european confidence in their strategic affairs, it on their minds. i think european confidence in the united states as the private security guards on one hand. on the other hand, it certainly provides generals in law school with additional confidence in exercise

and morally little was because they can see and that made the elect simply to scare . i'm john, i'm sorry to interrupt you. alexi again, we are starting to run out of time. i need to ask robert a question, robert, i saw you reacting, it looks like you want to jump in. i'm going to let you do that. but i also want to ask you about the fact that the parliament of estonia has become the 1st to demand a no fly zone of a nato member state. do you think there's going to be more pressure from nato member states to try to impose a no fly zone? yes, i mean, you know, by the way, i wish it because i, i not part company, but it said because q would actually have lots remarks. basically repeating, repeating, scrimmage, narrative, last way, sorry. you know, we are much more important thing is that 1st of all, again i tried to explain what the problem is, what you know, but my, you know, my sympathy is with i didn't i because i believe that we cannot just watch the sky

. you know, you know, 20000 people being killed in my room. it's not just you know, to, to, to, to demand, to do more. and i think the public opinion countries were bro, much harm. it was every hour. the 2nd point i would make, and this is where i say you are totally wrong, you're trying to portray, i mean, may be, if you know, there is no consensus for various reasons. you know, the russian armed forces in next ineffective. and frankly, the manager of towers because they are unable to come back to proper emitted to operate they could not do it in syria, could only be innocent. people in syria could not come back in stretching out and then repeating this new crate. so in a minute, the actual business she is a political decision was made by nature and would have to go by me again. sorry, i mean, i'm not the one of my, you know, my sheer, my, my, my,

my probation about that ability. i made some direction, policy is much more to because of the complete some body, you know, corrupt way. you know, we talked about not just walk crimes for played pedagogy, which direction of so disengaged. they are not able to fight open, it would be great. so in other words, if nato this 5, it was yes, will the risk factor, you know, but i'm pretty sure that you be able to overcome the russian at mandatory forces. that is the reality. but again, i come back to the point this message has to get through. it is getting through to a lot of people in different capitalist, but at the same time, you know, we need to have, you know, respect the fact that you know, the race. you know, nato countries on the mccracken countries and they all, you know, look at the situation from that point,

job security of the people that they represent. one cannot neglect. so now they weren't, we are what we are to be. but if russia can barbaric war, who knows, you know, the public opinion actually, you know, change the views of the people, make this decision at the moment. you know, the effort has your helping you prayed with defensive, with military assistance. and that is happening as we speak, and that is the most important thing that we can do right now. now the thing was actually we only have a little over a minute left. looks like you might have wanted to respond to what robert was saying. so i'm gonna give you a chance right now look, i mean that all comes down to the point. ok if made the will agree on, on using, using military force being doing what is going to do? i mean, clearly it's not going to be as sonya who was the festival for it, so it's going to be established military hours. will also need to remember and just

just give me a 2nd. please also need to remember that you need to give full credit. will you bring your military in, in the, in the context of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, your brains defensive for sure. you brain right now, or at least prior to the war, deployed one of the most effective military forces, in some instances superior to some of the military is of a novel needs a member countries. i mean, if ross is so bad in it's in, it's in it's comma foreman's, well, why don't generals in brussels make a quick decision and destroy the for is that we're going to, you is performance so badly. so i think, you know, we need to, we need to understand the realities on, on the ground. and we'll so need to understand the complexity of the situation and where we discussed in war. it's important that the war is discussed by people who actually understand the business, a war fight and not, not people who are making them to promises and who are not going to end up fighting

on. i'm not going to go to the front line to actually come from that force. so before you simply say, and make promises above just trying to force, assess it and then make, make your decision. and clearly this is where nate has been stuck with it. with that assessment or a we have run out of time, we're gonna have to leave the conversation there today. thanks so much to all of our guest, alina and jenko, robert for stell and alexi. robbie: if and thank you for watching it, see the program again. any time visiting our website, al jazeera dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at a j inside story. for me, how much i'm german, the whole team here. bye for now. ah .

this feels like representation of who i am and what i want people to remember me by moxon is my get out to is is not even just mots against the people around that got to when i'm chatted, the story about my my pin is going to take 50 future to do a don't so bad will need to do the next. you deep award winning documentary. wait on out his era with

our china in the u. s. sleep walking their way to war in the struggle over ukraine . here's the test for president joe biden. with proven, is really trying to do is rewrite the security architecture in europe. if your person united states, you seriously get a warrant to gum at the same time, your weekly pay on us politics and society. that's the bottom line. ah, i'm have them see her in the hall. the top stories on jessie are the leaders of 3 european countries have travelled to kiev in a show of solidarity with ukrainians. that says, rushing, shelling continues to hit the capital, the prime ministers of poland, slovenia, and the czech republic of the 1st foreign leaders to visit ukraine since rushes invasion began. they took a long and potentially risky train journey from poland to meet president de ms landscape. you can lead us says the visit sense, a strong message to russia. we should do.