my ball would in fact emphasise to the underground city, even if in withers found the way inside they had to survive surprise attacks in this curve and quoted theirs or traps, sat in pits all day. it would be wise to stop into their from reaching these chambers where civilians will take refuge. the underground city of new shabba tells a story of resistance and we'll. busy to survive thousands of tourists every year come here to understand and experience. it said that i was a 0. no shabbat. ah . hello again. the headlines on al jazeera this hour, people in ukraine's capital have looked into more russian shelling. there has been a large explosion near residential areas of cheve. a curfew remains in place after 5 people died on tuesday. talks between russia and ukraine are set to resume on wednesday. president villa, premier lensky,

says rushes demands are becoming more realistic, and he's conceited that ukraine may not join nato, largely squad, no, oliver. it is difficult but important because any war ends in an agreement, meetings continue as i am told, the position in the negotiation, sand more realistic. however, it still needs to be more time for decisions to be in ukraine's interest guys than you are a he live with us citizens of russia. any of you who have access to truthful information should understand this war will enter your country in shame and poverty. ukraine's interior minister says at least 20000 people have managed to get out of mary. a poll using a humanitarian court or but ukraine's deputy prime minister says a convoy with supplies hasn't yet made it into the besieged city. at least 500 civilians have been killed in ukraine, 2nd largest city of harkey eve that's according to the regions emergency services. moscow has repeatedly denied its targeting civilians. he was tv network fox news as

a camera man and producer have been chilled near tv. the crew was filming when artillery fire hit their vehicle. pierre exec resist ski and alexandra creation of yo were traveling with reporter benjamin whole, whose entreated and hospital for his injuries. 5 journalists have been killed since the war started. south korea says a missile fired by north korea has failed shortly after launch. the object was fired from the 29 area in the pyongyang region, the u. s. and calling on north korea to refrain from further destabilizing acts. a landslide has burried more than 60 houses in the andes, in northern peru. heavy rain cause part of a hill to collapse in the town of par coin. people try to help those trap by breaking down the walls of their homes. more than a dozen people are missing. we'll have more news for you at the top of the hour on al jazeera. next is insight story. ah, each and every one of us have to go to responsibility. to change our personal space

with we could do this experiment, i mean by diversity could increase just a little bit that wouldn't be worth doing. anybody had any idea that it would become a magnet movies, incredible species for women to get 50 percent representation in the constituent assembly here in getting these people to pick up this saying that re saying this is extremely important service that they provide the city. why do we, we need to take america to trying to bring people together and trying to deal with people who can left behind. oh, should nato impose a no fly zone over ukraine?

as russia intensified air attacks, president vladimir zalinski repeated his call. what the western military alliance says, blocking airspace would escalate the war. so who's right? this is inside stuart. ah, hello and welcome to the program. i'm a jim john rushes invasion of ukraine is intensifying with air attacks on civilian areas. artillery shells destroyed several buildings around the capital cave. at least 2 bodies were pulled from the rubble of this apartment block russian air raids on sunday killed at least 35 people at a military facility near the border with poland. that was the largest attack on western ukraine since the invasion began. homes and hospitals and harkey and mario paul have also been hit. russia denies targeting civilian areas,

ukraine's president says the attack show why nato needs to impose a no fly zone to protect civilians. he's that us, yes. do reasonably actually. and now i repeat again, yet, if you do not close our skies, it is only a matter of time before russia, missiles follow your territory on the territory of nato and on the hones of citizens, all nato countries. east members of parliament of nato member estonia are the 1st to demand a no fly zone. some or all aircraft would be banned from flying over certain regions. any pilots violating the order risk being shot down. no fly zones have to be enforced by military means. nato could end up engaging directly with russian warplanes, making the alliance direct participants in the ukraine war. nato in the u. s. previously imposed no fly zones when only one side had a powerful air force such as in iraq and bosnia in the 1990s. as well as during

libya's civil war in 2011. all right, let's go ahead and bring our guests from keith. helena and jenco, a member of the ukrainian parliament and deputy head of ukraine's parliamentary majority from brussels. robert michelle, a senior fellow at the casino, pulaski foundation in poland. he is also a former nato official, and from perth and australia, alexi marvey off associate professor of national security and strategic studies at curtain university. a warm welcome to you all and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. helena, let me start with you today. you and i spoke a little over 2 weeks ago on this program. at that time, you were calling for a no fly zone. what does it mean to you to day that despite repeated calls from president zalinski and so many others in ukraine, officials in nato have continued to refuse to impose a no fly zone. listen,

i will tell you what no fly zone means for ukrainian innocent citizens in its muse, dozen of thousands of innocent ukrainians. woman children's elder people will be safe. you know that the crimes that russian occupation troops are now could meet . and in my awkward and many other stages, but muddy all but the situation and mary open is the worst to day deputy head of men deputy mayor of mighty will, but reported that 20000 civilians were killed in mighty open. only 20000 people. do you imagine that? do you imagine the scheme of dis, grimes of russian troops in ukraine and the heat might open heavily from air? the heat is on the agent. they keep it with it's garage tornadoes and stuff like that. they send miles to the peaceful features of ukraine, 20000 innocent ukrainians killed in only one city. and this is

all happened because west and not the countries are not ready because they fear, i don't know what they fear. i don't know what they fear, don't be fear thousands of people being killed, but because they still fear to implement no fly zone in ukraine. the crimes against humanity is the murders of 1000 civilians are going on on a daily basis. i now i am in ukraine. if i should tell you that it is horrible. we are going through a nightmare. many sieges, many sieges of your grade are going through a nightmare of it on a daily basis. we hear miles from our windows on a daily basis. it's the thing that you can't get used to. this is the night tomorrow that we live in, and no fly zone will definitely help to stole these crimes of russian troops that

they could meet and keep committed in ukraine. this is what no fly zone means. and we believe we say we believe that north liaison should be implemented, otherwise the world will not be a safe place to leave any more one country. if one crazy dictator called booth, you can send his troops, do another country, a sovereign b as full democratic country to start kill civilians. the world is not a safe place any more. and that is why citizens all over the world and politicians should actually start acting well more actively robert, you heard, wouldn't. melina had to say there, above all that's going on throughout ukraine. we know nato's position, which is that if they were to try to implement a no fly zone,

they believe i could spark a wider conflict. let me ask you how much risk is there from your perspective that attempting to implement a no fly zone over ukraine? would spark this far more dangerous conflict? yes or in my 1st of all, my heart and all the grains it's, it's a tragic, it's a, it's a virus attack that extrinsic. russia pretty beyond the stress . i'm a former official so i can speak my, you know, on stick me in a private talk to me. first of all, i would not, not find some concept. you know, of the table i, i would consider it more re, haps, you know, in terms of maybe a partial, not like don't 2015 areas. it's an absolutely, you know, the most urgent example. i mean, it's not, i mean, 1st of all, there is nothing in international law which kind of make this, such

a multi legal ukraine has the right to the right. lots of countries you know, to, to help and, and also, you know, even rushing people. christy, of the really criminal not even putting in a walk at the also you know, the right to protect the doctrine and try and un the problem is however, that right now, you know, there is no consensus and it's, you know, you have to ask this question frankly, to copy those particular in washington, but also in major european. so, you know, when, for instance, my country, poland has often quite a generous offer for free over 25 range. there was a number of countries, again, with the pin countries who start not a bad idea, even though nobody has been flashing by the industry. this is the reality that

having several base, you know, it is true. one has to be, you know, quite sort of direct about this, you know, no fly zone would mean war with russia. simplest that would bring to it's not just about sending, if you place here and there, it's neutralizing the actual potential which rash res, using i mean for example, the attack on every which is very close to the place was from the russian territory. so it would mean actually neutralizing, we no longer infrastructure and perhaps even attacking russian. russia plays a crate and maybe russia. so, you know, this is very, very serious because, you know, we talking about the potential, what was free, and i can understand, you know, the reasoning provided by a lot of dieters in nato countries and you need to check that you cannot have done

by shoot back at the same time, the moral case for doing more that it's being done to me is growing stronger every hour. not even everyday. every alexi you must have heard robert there, talk about the fact that if this escalates, you could have world war 3 on your hands. from your perspective. is there a chance that nato could reverse its decision, that they could establish of flies and what would need to happen in order for that to occur? look, i mean that one of the ways how it can be done 1st all we need to talk about breaking colleges even if need, that would happen. they typically decide to introduce the no fly zone. now it will be a, it will phase. so then aberrational limitations, it will be limited by that rational range of it's a prop which will have to walk away from need the air field. because if they will try to deploy the assets inside your brain, that will be there will be designated as targets by the russian military. so

in order to not not to create more escalation and certainly create this threshold beyond wage though, the conventional phase of the work can become a non dimensional phase of the war, i think one way or another. it has to engage in some sort of the way consultation and dialogue is as absurd, maybe as hypocritical as may sound with moscow about introduce in as, as the previous speaker just mentioned, perhaps a partial no fly zone, for example, in the instance or western parts of your brain, whether it's manageable from, from the logistical perspective, and where the re, steel, limited use of rosters, offensive air power and, and that may create a degree of sort of the division of responsibility is all you bring again as horrible as it may sound because we're in the middle of a human catastrophe there, and the disaster can this over in the country been attacked by a much, much larger country on the, and the, and the more formidable military military on. but if,

if we're not talking about really escalation, the confrontation and not spill in the conflict beyond ukrainian territory, it can be done by the, the, it has to, it has to be done in some sort of, through some sort of consultation communication. and that may not be possible right this moment because i as far as i and the stand open form of communications between russia late, there's been suspended, if not terminated. good alina, i saw you shaking your head. i know you want to jump in. i'm going to you, i also want to ask you about a point that both robert and alexi raised and there have been growing calls for perhaps the establishment of this idea of a limited no fly zone, perhaps in the west or the country. is that something that would be acceptable to ukrainians? well 1st i would like to ask alexi to stop put in the narrative. this is not confront being, this is not crisis. this is worth with 1000 ophelia healed. you should realize that,

and you said not. you, you should not use wouldn't narrative because williams narrative deals. if you 3 old people in your grade and you have no obligation and you should launch like good, meet the crimes in the media. second thing, no. my child, no flights on is not working. like, what are you talking about? this is, this is like what, let us sit safe people in one region and put him and the russian occupation army, compute people in all other reduce. is that what you said? yes. can you imagine, like, do you even imagine what you are talking about? again, let me remind you that 20000 civilians, meaning woman, children. all the people are the civilians were killed. only one, c,

g in money will boil people a stock there with no food, no water, no medication, people. i a dine because they come to get at treatment. people with diseases would, would, i don't know if gan, sirs wouldn't die a bed. they got to get treatment and they had no children imagined that children on european continent a dying because of dehydration and they died. imagine. ringback imagine good, good. so i just needs and then with the experts and you know like bullet decent duck in that no poison is not like something that we should discuss. now. let's think about it later on when and not the nose on the green as will be guilt when enough demilia of ukrainians will become refugee. is that what you are talking

about? really, helena, what we should, helena, may i ask you if nato continues to refuse to establish a no fly zone? what else would you frame like to see in the form of assistance if, if they continue to refuse that nato is the biggest disappointment of this year? not that is a total disappointment. it's an organization which can not protect anyone which cannot protect even its own. a countries and we should realize that we should not look at not all we should actually communicate and request help for certain countries, which you realize that both you and russia is a thread, boots you and russia is a threat for the whole world for global security in the majority of european countries in they are, you know, strategic documents. it's already said,

it is already set for years that russia is a threat for global security. it is a threat for european security. and nowadays we see it all. we see that they feel people in ukraine. we see that to russians like we have dozens of weaknesses like that. the russian soldiers are going into residential buildings, dragging people from their apartments. and so, and some of them dad on their yard. this is what we are going through. can you imagine that you imagine this experience? can you imagine how many more years after with venus, this war after, when this war become many more? yes, we will. we would like to read out. also they can recover from the stress you imagine bed and we're still discuss when and who should like impose no fly zone?

i think it's time for selina gantry is helena alliance. helene, i think this responses to lina. i'm this is not the same. i'm sorry to interrupt you, elena. we are starting to run out of time. um, i need to ask alexi a question here. alexi, you talked about the feasibility perhaps of a, of a limited fly zone. i want to ask you about how difficult it would be to achieve an expansive no fly zone o throughout the whole of ukraine. well, as i am coming back to the point that the erased early festival, it would be difficult logistical. it's just the sheer operational range, need a crowd would require a different, a different sort of proposition, a blind, for example, seaborne and s. as in the, in the black sea, it would be impossible given that durations and that the racial activity of the russian blacks lead on the fact that the russians effectively control the entire

lexi maritime theater. are trying to neutralize russian defensive voice in russia will automatically be treated by moscow as the declaration of war on russia and in the, in the current circumstances. given the fact that made the 3 has 3 nuclear arms states that may pre me the escalation of the conventional to nuclear phase. again, no one knows where the when will press the bottom or not press the bottom, but certainly the decision makers in brussels. the decision making in pentagon will not be at risk of entertain the option. what if you will not press the button because everyone who is serious and not the business of strategic and the best plan, you can start to rate from what worse case scenario upwards. rather than from optimistic scenario, don don wards so given, given the current state of complete mistrust, given the current state or country is not listening to one another and certainly

russia and the west be in on worse terms. i mean, the current situation is much worse than the darkest years old work on from the shop i think need to is simply risk avoidance. and by doing that, i certainly completely agree with alina. it is do an industrial damage to its reputation. it's, it's, it's actually on the mind, it's credibility, as the world believes to be the most powerful defensive alliance. when it, when it doesn't have the political will to challenge russia, or will you brain, off the years, all sideline in, with your brain the years. so providing military assistance to your brain on the years of given promises to eventual membership in the defensive structure and with you provide in similar sort of promises with the eventual membership in the you. and now it seems to be all in the park simply because the

russians decide it's on a connection. memetic action, which is obviously on warranted aggression against the sovereign a sovereign nation. it is really i and it really does the will on the minds european confidence in they are all strategic affairs it on their minds. i think european confidence in the united states as the private security guards on one hand . on the other hand, it's certainly provides general send law school with additional confidence in exercise in all the little work because they can see and that made the election lead to scared. i'm just, i'm sorry to interrupt your lexi again. we are starting to run out of time. i need to ask robert a question, robert, i saw you reacting, it looks like you want to jump in. i'm going to let you do that. but i also want to ask you about the fact that the parliament of estonia has become the 1st to demand a no fly zone of a nato member state. do you think that there's going to be more pressure from nato member states to try to impose a no fly zone?

yes, i mean, you know, by the way, i wish in my hand because i, i not part company said because you would actually have lots remarks, basically repeating the repeating, spread the narrative away. sorry. you know, we are much more important thing is that 1st of all, again i tried to explain what the problem is, what you know, but my, you know, my sympathy is with i didn't i because i believe that we cannot just watch the sky . you know, you know, 20000 people being killed in my room. it's not just you know, to, to, to, to demand, to do more. and i think the public opinion countries were bro much. that was every hour. the 2nd point i would make, and this is where i say you, i told you wrong, you're trying to portray, i mean, may be, if you know, there is no consensus for various reasons. you know, the russian armed forces in next ineffective. and frankly,

the manager of towers because they are unable to come back to proper admitted to ration. they could not do it in seriana, could only be innocent. people in syria could not come back in touch, you know, and then repeating this new crate. so in a minute, the actual business she is a political decision was made by nature and it would have to go by me again. sorry, i mean i'm not the one my, you know, my sheer, my, my, my, my probation about their ability made them to actually in posey. it's much more to me because of the complete chum, bonnie, you know, corrupt way, you know, we were talking about not just walk crimes for played pedagogy, which direction to get engaged. they are not able to fight open, it would be great. so in other words, if natal this 5, it was yes with the risk factor, you know, but i'm pretty sure that you be able to overcome the russian and mandatory forces.

that is the reality. but again, i come back to the point this message has to get through. it is getting through to a lot of people in different capital. but at the same time, you know, we need to have, you know, respect the fact that you know, the race. you know, nato countries, mccracken countries and they all, you know, look at the situation from that point, job security of the people that they represent. one cannot neglect. so now they weren't, we are where we are today. but if we're actually wor, who knows, you know, the public opinion actually, you know, change the views of the people who make this decision at the moment. you know, that the effort has your helping you prayed with defensive, with many. ready assistance and that is happening as we speak and that is the most

important thing that we can. ready right now another thing was i'll actually, we only have a little over a minute left. looks like you might have wanted to respond to what robert was saying. so going to give you a chance right now look, i mean that all comes down to the point. ok if made the will agree on, on using using military force being doing what is going to do. i mean, clearly it's not going to be as sonya was the 1st of all for it. so it's going to be established military hours. will also need to remember and just just give me a 2nd. please also need to remember that you need to give full credit that you bring and military in, in the, in the context of the, of the, of the, of the, of the you brains defensive for sure. you brain right now, or at least prior to the war, deployed one of the most effective military forces, in some instances superior to some of the military is of a novel needs a member countries. i mean, if ross is so bad in it's in, it's in it's comma foreman's, well, why don't generals in brussels make

a quick decision and destroy the for is that we're going to, you is performance so badly. so i think, you know, we need to, we need to understand the reality is on, on the ground and will so need to understand the complexity of the situation. and when we discuss in war, it's important that the war is discussed by people who actually understand the business, a war fight and not, not people who are making them to promises and who are not going to end up. why it's not going to go to the front line to actually come from that force. so before you simply say, and make promises above just trying to force assess it and then make, make your decision. and clearly this is where nate has been stuck with it. with that assessment or a we have run out of time so we're going to have to leave the conversation there today. thanks so much to all of our guest helene and jenko, robert for stell and alexi robbie of and thank you for watching it. see the program

again any time visiting our website, al jazeera dot com, and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter or handle is at a j inside story. for me mm hm. mm hm. jerome, in the whole team here, bye for now. ah no place. and so i gone was say, the press brit tree did of the car about a media hub and vital vantage point. during the 1st truly televised war from the roof, we could see the vacuum at the american embassy, where the most iconic images of the conflict in vietnam were transmitted to the world. this was the front row sheet to the final stages of the war, saigon, caravel war hotels. on all, joseph the u. s. a whole was of interest to people over the world. this has been

going on for a number of hours with you got the use of the report through an international perspective. we try to explain to a global audience how this could impact the life. this is an important part of the world and how to do this very good at bringing the news to the world from here. ah, he cries, president says talks and moscow are becoming more realistic as russian forces face new resistance across the country. ah, who watching al jazeera alive for my headquarters and i'm getting the navigator also, a head's, we will never leave you alone. we wish he wished a show of solidarity for ukraine, the leaders of poland, slovenia, and the czech republic visit keith were a strict curfew is under way.