earlier than planned and tourists from the visa waiver countries including britain, singapore, and the u. s. can visit from may. all travelers aren't expected to be allowed in until october. but new zealand prime minister says that could change on japan is lifting all over the 1900 restrictions in the capital, tokyo and more than a dozen prefecture as prime minister from you. because she says the country will solely slowly start returning to normal as the measure is end in a week's time. this is the number of cases drop, the curves centered around, limiting hours for restaurants and other businesses. ah, hello again. the headlines on al jazeera, russia for a minister shake elaborate, says there's hope for compromise ahead of talks. and the 21 day war, ukraine's president of all of them are zalinski, says russia demands are becoming more realistic. silvers little squad,

and our version. it is difficult but important because any war ends in an agreement, meetings continue as i am told the positions in the negotiation, sam, more realistic. however, the still needs to be more time for decisions to be in ukraine. interesting guys than you are a he live with us citizens of russia. any of you who have access to truthful information should understand this war will enter your country in shame and poverty be. another day of talks comes as people in ukraine's capital faced more russian shelling. there's been a large explosion near residential areas of cheese and a curfew remains in place after 5 people died on tuesday. ukraine's interior minister says at least 20000 people have used the humanitarian quarter to escape from your poll. that ukrainian deputy prime minister is accusing russian forces of occupying a hospital there and holding 400 people hostage. russia has accuse ukraine of carrying out another missile strike on the outskirts of don yeske

city. it says 5 people were injured by the blast on tuesday night. that comes after a strike killed 20 people and the separatist held area on monday. keep denies carrying out that attack. moscow says it's opened up a criminal investigation into the incidence. nato leaders have reaffirmed their support for ukraine, defense minister as me alliance for meeting in brussels. nato secretary general young stolen berg says he wants to make sure russia is clear about the group's commitment to defending its territory. the lawyer for 2 british iranians detained in iran, says they're about to leave the country, now's indians. gary ratcliffe and anesha shuree are reportedly a trans airport's aid worker cigar re ratcliffe has been detained since 2016 iran state news agencies has buquet released $530000000.00 of its debt to iran. ahead of their release. there was a headline on al jazeera up next. this inside story,

thanks for watching. people have come to expect a lot from al jazeera over the years. it's, they're reporting the commitment to under reported places, the commitment to the human story. but it's also the idea of challenging those in power. if a politician comes on this channel, they will be challenged. and that's what people expect was. they want the questions answered. that is what we've always done those. what we will continue to do ah, should nato impose a no fly zone over ukraine? as russia intensified air attacks, president vladimir zalinski repeated his call with the western military alliance is blocking airspace would escalate the war. so who's right? this is inside stuart. ah.

hello and welcome to the program. i'm hammer, jim. jim rushes. invasion of ukraine is intensifying with air attacks on civilian areas. artillery shells destroyed several buildings around the capitol cave. at least 2 bodies were pulled from the rubble of this apartment block russian air raids on sunday killed at least 35 people at a military facility near the border with poland. that was the largest attack on western ukraine since the invasion began. homes and hospitals in harkey and mary paul have also been hit russia denies targeting civilian areas, ukraine's president says the attack show why nato needs to impose a no fly zone to protect civilians. he's at us. yep. of delusional. yeah, actually, and now i repeat again. yeah, if you do not close al skies, it is only a matter of time before russia,

missiles full on your territory on the territory of nato, and on the hones of citizens of nato countries. gaged, members of parliament of nato member estonia are the 1st to demand a no fly zone. some or all aircraft would be banned from flying over certain regions. any pilots violating the order risk being shot down. no fly zones have to be enforced by military means. nato could end up engaging directly with russian warplanes, making the alliance direct participants in the ukraine war. nato in the u. s. previously imposed no fly zones when only one side had a powerful air force such as in iraq, in bosnia, in the 1990s. as well as uring libby, a civil war in 2011. all right, let's go ahead and bring our guests from keith. helena and jenco, a member of the ukrainian parliament and deputy head of ukraine's parliamentary majority from brussels. robert michelle, a senior fellow at the casino, pulaski foundation in poland. he is also a former nato official,

and from perth and australia, alexi morabe off associate professor of national security and strategic studies at curtain university. a warm welcome to you all and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. helena, let me start with you today. you and i spoke a little over 2 weeks ago on this program. at that time, you were calling for a no fly zone. what does it mean to you to day that despite repeated calls from president zalinski, and so many others in ukraine, officials in nato have continued to refuse to impose a no fly zone. listen, i will tell you what no fly zone means for ukraine. young, innocent citizens, in its muse, dozen of thousands of innocent ukrainians, woman children, elder people, will be safe. you know that the crimes that rush an occupation troops are now kmiec and in my court and many other stages,

but money all. but the situation and money is the worst. today the deputy head of met the pit. you may, your money will be reported that the bank is 1000. civilians were killed in money open. only 20000 people. do you imagine that? do you imagine the care of this grimes of brush and troops in ukraine and the heat might open heavily from air? the heat is one of the ation. they keep it with it's grass tornadoes and stuff like that. they send miles to the peaceful features of ukraine, 20000 innocent ukrainians killed in only one see to you. and this is all happened because west and not the countries are not ready because they fear, i don't know what they fear. i don't know what they fear, don't be fear thousands of people being killed, but because they still fear to implement no fly zone in ukraine. the crimes

against humanity is the murders of 1000 civilians are going on on a daily basis. i now i'm in ukraine. if and then i should tell you that it is horrible. we are going through a nightmare. many sieges, many sieges of your grade are going through a nightmare of it on a daily basis. we hear miles from our windows on a daily basis. if it isn't, the thing that you can't get used to, this is the night to my out that we leave in, and no fly zone will definitely help to stole these crimes of russian troops that they could meet and keep committed in ukraine. this is what no fly zone means. and we believe we say we believe that no fly zone should be implemented. otherwise the world will not be

a safe place to leave any more one country. if one crazy dictator called booth, you can send his troops to another country, a sovereign peaceful democratic country to start kill civilians. the world is not a safe place any more. and that is why citizens all over the world and politicians should actually start acting well more actively robert, you heard, wouldn't. melina had to say there about all that's going on throughout ukraine. we know nato's position, which is that if they were to try to implement a no fly zone, they believe i could spark a wider conflict. let me ask you how much risk is there from your perspective that attempting to implement a no fly zone over ukraine? would spark this far more dangerous conflict? yes or in my 1st of all, my heart and all the grains it's, it's a try to get to attack the experiencing, you know,

russia has beyond the stress. i'm a former official. ready so i can speak my, you know, i'm speaking in a private mean. talk to me, 1st of all, i would not know on concept, you know, of the table i, i would consider it more free perhaps, you know, in terms of maybe a partial client don't concerned except in areas mario bold, it's an absolutely, you know, the most urgent example, i mean, it's not, i mean, 1st of all, there is nothing in international law which would kind of make this, such a multi legal ukraine has the right to the right last public countries you know, to, to help and, and, and also, you know, even rushing to pucker in the criminal, not even putting in a walk at the also you know,

the right to protect doctrine you try and un the problem is however, that right now, you know, there is no consensus. and it's, you know, you have to ask this question frankly, to copy those particular in washington, but also in major european. so, you know, when, for instance, my country, poland has often quite a generous offer for free over 25 range. there was a number of countries, again, with the pin countries who start not a bad idea, even though nobody asked why the industry. this is the reality that having federal race, you know, it is true. one has to be, you know, quite sort of direct about this, you know, no fly zone would mean war with russia. simpler back would, would bring. it's not just about spending, if you place here and there it's neutralizing the actual potential which rash res using i mean for example,

the attack on every which is very close to the place was from the russian territory. so it would mean actually, neutralizing, we know a lot of infrastructure and perhaps even attacking russian. russia plays great. it may be russia. so, you know, this is very, very serious. you know, we talking about the potential, what was free, and i can understand, you know, the reasoning provided by a lot of dieters in major countries and you need to check that you cannot have done by shoot back at the same time, the moral case for doing more that is being done to many is growing from every hour, not even every day, every alexi you must have heard robert there, talk about the fact that if this escalates, you could have world war 3 on your hands from your perspective. is there

a chance that nato could reverse its decision, that they could establish and flies and what would need to happen in order for that to occur? look, i'm in the, one of the ways how it can be done this. all we need to talk about british colleges even if need that would hypothetically decide to introduce the no fly zone. now it will be a, it will phase. so then aberrational limitations, it will be limited by that variational range of it's a prop which will have to raise from need the airfield. because if they will try to deploy the assets inside your brain, that will be there will be designated as targets by the russian military. so in order to not not to create more escalation and certainly create this threshold beyond wage though, the conventional phase of the work can become an unconventional phase of the war, i think, one way or another. it has to engage in some sort of the way consultation and dialogue is as absurd. maybe as he will,

critical is may sound with moscow about introduce in as, as the previous speaker just mentioned, perhaps a partial no fly zone. for example, in the instance or western parts of your brain, whether it's manageable from, from the logistical perspective. and where the re steel limited use of rosters, offensive air power and, and that may create a degree of sort of the division of responsibility is all ukraine. again as horrible as it may sound because we're in the middle of a human catastrophe there. and that is us, the count this over in the country been attacked by a much, much larger country on the, and the, and the more formidable military military on. but if we're not talking about really escalation, the confrontation and not spill in the conflict, be beyond ukrainian territory, it can be done by the, the, it has to, it has to be done in some sort of, through some sort of consultation communication. and that may not be possible right

this moment because i, as far as i understand, open formal communications between russia late, there's been suspended, if not terminated. good alina, i saw you shaking your head. i know you want to jump in. i'm going to, you. i also want to ask you about a point that both robert and alexi raised and there have been growing calls for perhaps the establishment of this idea of a limited no fly zone, perhaps in the west or the country. is that something that would be acceptable to ukrainians? well 1st i would like to ask alex, see, to stop put in narrative. this is not confront patient. this is not crisis. this is worth with 1000 ophelia peeled. you should realize that, and you said not, you, you should not use which is narrative because williams narrative deals. it kills real people in your grade, and you have no obligation and you should launch like could meet the crimes in the

media. second thing, no one shall low, no flights on is not working. like, what are you talking about? this is, this is like what? let us sit safe people in one region and put him and the russian occupation army can kill people in all other reduce. is that what you said? yes. can you imagine like, do you even imagine what you are talking about? again, let me remind you that 20000 civilians, meaning woman children, elder people are the civilians were killed. only one see to you in muddy old boy. people are stuck there with no food, no water, no medication, people. i a dine because they come to get a treatment beeble with diseases would, would, i don't know if gan, sirs wouldn't die a bad because get treatment and they had no children imagined that children on

european continent a dying because of dehydration and they died. imagine, imagine good, good. so i just needs and then with the experts and you know like bullied decent duck in that. no one is on is not like something that we should discuss. now. let's think about it later on. when another those on the you bring us will be guilt . when enough them you, leon, of ukrainians will become refugee. is that what you are talking about? really, helena, what we should, helena, may i ask you if nato continues to refuse to establish a no fly zone? what else would you frame like to see in the form of assistance if, if they continue to refuse that nato is the biggest disappointment of this

year? not good is a total disappointment. it is an organization which cannot protect anyone which cannot protect even its own. ah, countries and we should realize that we should not look at nato. we should actually communicate and request for help for certain countries which you realize that boots you and russia is a thread boot. you and russia is a threat for the whole world, for global security in the majority of european countries in there, you know, a strategic documents. it's already said, it is already set for years that russia is a threat for global security. it is a threat for european security, and nowadays we see it all. we see that they feel people in ukraine. we see that russians like we have dozens of weaknesses like that. the russian soldiers are

going into residential buildings, dragging people from their apartments. and so, and some of them dad on their yard, this is what we are going through. can you imagine that in do imagine this experience? can you imagine how many more years after we finish this war after we in this war, will go many more years. we will, we would like to read out people so they can recover from the stress you imagined bed and was still discussed well and who should like impose no fly zone? i think it's time for selina gantry is helena alliance. helene, i think this responsive to lean. i'm this is not the same. i'm sorry to interrupt you. ho, lena we, we are starting to run out of time. i'm, i need to ask alexia, question here, alexi, you talked about the feasibility, perhaps of a, of a limited fly zone. i want to ask you about how difficult it would be to achieve

an expansive no fly zone o throughout the whole of ukraine. well, as i am coming back to the point that they raised earlier, 1st of all, it would be difficult. logistically just the sheer operational range need a problem with require a different, a different sort of position. and you blind, for example, see born s as in the, in the black sea, it would be impossible given that durations and that the racial activity of the russian black ship lead on the fact that the russians actually control the entire lexi maritime theater. are trying to neutralize russian defensive voice in russia will automatically be treated by moscow as the declaration of war on russia and in the, in the current circumstances. given the fact that made the 3 s 3 nuclear states,

that may pre me the escalation of the conventional to nuclear phase. again, no one knows whether we didn't, will press the button or not press the button, but certainly the decision makers in brussels. the decision making in pentagon would not be at risk of entertain the option. what if you will not press the button because everyone who is serious and will not the business of strategic and defense planning, dance thought the rate from what worst case scenario upwards. rather than from optimistic scenario, don don wards. so given, given the current state of complete mistrust, given the current state or country is not listening to one another in some of the russia and the west b in on worse terms. i mean, the current situation is much worse than the darkest years old work on from the shop i think need to is simply risk, avoid him. and by doing that, i, so then i completely agree with alina. it's is do an industrial damage to its

reputation. it's, it's, it's actually on the mind it's going to build a g, as the world believes to be the most powerful defensive alliance. when it, when it doesn't have the political will to challenge russia, or will you brain the is all sideline in with your brain. the years, so providing military assistance to your brain, off the years of given promises to eventual membership in the defensive structure and with you provide in similar sort of promises with the eventual membership in the you. and now it seems to be all in the art simply because the russians decide it's on the a connection genetic action, which is obviously on warranted aggression against the sovereign. a sovereign nation is really, i mean, it really does all on their minds. european confidence in their strategic affairs, it on their minds. i think european confidence in the united states as the private

security guards on one hand. on the other hand, it certainly provides general law school with additional confidence in exercise and morally little was because they can see a bad name elect simply to scare. i'm john, i'm sorry to interrupt you. alexi again, we are starting to run out of time. i need to ask robert a question, robert, i saw you reacting, it looks like you want to jump in. i'm going to let you do that. but i also want to ask you about the fact that the parliament of estonia has become the 1st to demand a no fly zone of a nato member state. do you think there's going to be more pressure from nato member states to try to impose an flies on yes, i mean, you know, by the way, i wish in my hand, because i not part company, said because you would actually have lots remarks, basically repeating the repeating scrimmage, narrative away, sorry. you know, we are much more important thing is that 1st of all,

again i tried to explain what the problem is, what you know, but my, you know, my sympathy is with i didn't i because i believe that we cannot just watch the sky . you know, you know, 20000 people being killed in my room. it's not just you know, to, to, to, to demand, to do more. and i think the public opinion countries were bro, much harm. it was every hour. the 2nd point i would make, and this is where i say you, i told you wrong, you're trying to portray, i mean, may be, if you know, there is no consensus, various reasons. you know, the russian armed forces inept, ineffective, and frankly, they've been through towers because they are unable to come back to proper emitted to opperation. they could not do it in syria. could only bobby innocent. people in syria could not come back in stretching out. and then repeating this, he knew crate. so in a minute, the actual business she gave a political decision was made by nature and would have to go by me again. sorry,

i mean, i'm not the one of my, you know, my sheer, my, my, my, my probation about the ability of major to actually and policy is much more to because of the complete some body, you know, corrupt way. you know, we talked about not just walk crimes for played pedagogy which direction so just engage. they are not able to fight open. it would be great. so in other words, if natal this 5 it was yes. will the risk factor, you know, but i'm pretty sure that be able to overcome the russian and mandatory forces. that is the reality. but again, i come back to the point this message has to get through. it is getting through to a lot of people in different capital. but at the same time, you know, we need to have, you know, respect the fact that you know, the race. you know,

nato countries on the mccracken countries and they all, you know, look at the situation from that point, job security of the people that they represent. one cannot neglect. so now they weren't, we are where we are today. but if russia barberic war, who knows, you know, the public opinion actually, you know, change the views of the people who make this decision at the moment. you know, hey, never has your helping you prayed with defensive, with military assistance. and that is happening as we speak, and that is the most important thing that we can do right now. and other things. well, it's actually we only have a little over a minute left. looks like you might have wanted to respond to what robert was saying. so i'm gonna give you a chance right now look, i mean that all comes down to the point. ok if made the will agree on, on using, using military force being doing what is going to do?

i mean, clearly it's not going to be as sonya who was the festival for it, so it's going to be established military hours. will also need to remember and just just give me a 2nd. please also need to remember that you need to give full credit. will you bring your military in, in the, in the context of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, your brains defensive for sure. you brain right now, or at least prior to the war, deployed one of the most effective military forces, in some instances superior to some of the military is of a novel needs a member countries. i mean, if ross is so bad in the, it's in it's in it's comma foreman's, well, why don't generals in brussels make a quick decision and destroy the for is that we're going to, you is performance so badly. so i think, you know, we need to, we need to understand the realities on, on the ground. and we'll so need to understand the complexity of the situation and where we discussed in war. it's important that the war is discussed by people who

actually understand the business, a war fight and not, not people who are making them to promises and who are not going to end up. why it's not going to go to the front line to actually come from that force. so before you simply say, and make promises above just trying to force assess it and then make it make your decision. and clearly this is where nate has been stuck with it, with that assessment or a we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there today. thanks so much to all of our guest, alina and jenko, robert pastel and alexi robbie if and thank you for watching it, see the program again. any time visiting our website, al jazeera dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at a j inside story from him. how much i'm german, the whole team here. bye for now.

healing the debate. there is no he job bad a unit. i am it anyone here talks about women that i had to force adjusted the some bill seemed of been says no topic is off the table. we were taught to see abortion as a one way. tickets try to help all the companies. they deny any responsibility. even though they have the resources in the power to fix it, where a global audience becomes a global community. the comment section is right here. the part of today's program, this team on out is the era. we know what's happening in our region. we know how to get the plate that others and not as far as i said, i'm going the way that you tell the story is what can make a difference. or china in the u. s. sleep walking their way to war in the struggle over ukraine. here's the test for president joe biden whitman is really trying to do is rewrite the security architecture in europe. if your person, united states,

you seriously got a warrant to gum at the same time, your weekly take on us politics and society. that's the bottom line. ah, al jazeera with ah, it's $1200.00 gmc here on al jazeera, come on santa maria with the headlines. there are signs that while the war goes on, you know, going talks between ukraine and russia are making some progress, the russian foreign minister. so good luck, rob says there is hope for a compromise. ukraine's presidents as moscow's demands are becoming more realistic and automated lensky concedes its possible ukraine may not join nato. however,

the, that's the reality is the negotiations meet again chief residence waking up to the familiar sound of rushing, shelling.