hold to quarantine, the surge has been caused by the only con variant. the strict current of ours measure, the leading to massive cues at chinese port. more workers are having to stay at home to follow government rules, leading, leading to a backlog of container ships. one of the world's biggest ports in the city of sions, and could be forced to shut if infections keep rising. ah. the top stories on al jazeera, a russian strike on the besieged, ukrainian city of mariel. paul has destroyed a theatre or an estimated 1000 people was sheltering. the number of casualties is not yet known. earlier russian rockets hit a convoy fleeing the city in during 5 people, including a child. the u. s. embassy and keith says, rushing forces have shot dead 10 ukrainians while they were queueing for bread. in chinese footage broadcasts on ukrainian television appears to show several bodies

lying on the ground and an ambulance arriving at the scene. russia has denied the report calling it a hoax. the international court of justice has ordered russia to immediately cease its military operation in ukraine. ukraine filed a case against russia shortly after the invasion began. 3 weeks ago saying ross is justification that it was preventing a genocide was unfounded. the russian federation must pending the final decision in the case suspend the military operations that commenced on 24 february 2022 in the territory of ukraine. in addition to the specific measures, it has decided to order the court games is necessary to indicate an additional measure directed at both parties and aim good ensuring the non aggravation of a dispute. representatives from the international criminal court have been in ukraine collecting evidence for an investigation into possible crimes by russian forces. i. c. c. prosecutor, kareem con,

helped the president. so let's see on wednesday where he said he found evidence of ukrainian suffering. the court launched a formal investigation earlier this month of the russian forces were accused of using cluster bombs. us president joe biden says, washington will provide $800000000.00 worth of military hardware of ukraine's leader made an impassioned plea to american politicians to do more to protect his country against russian war plain. low to mid lensky address the u. s. congress from keith. he once again pushed for a no fly zone, telling congress that russia had turned the ukrainian skies into a source of death. well, those are the headlines. stay with us next up. it's the stream from talk to al jazeera, we do believe that the threat of an invasion of ukraine is currently the biggest

threat international peace and security. we listen, we are focusing so much on the human tearing crisis that we forget the long term development. we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matters on the found josh, rushing in for me. okay. and you're in the stream. what's being done to thor, rushing this information on ukraine. moscow has been turning out false words and propaganda since before the war. so what's different now? here's what 2 experts told us i have been researching the russian does information since 2014. but what they see now it differs from everything else i have ever seen . i see a huge, massive wave of disinformation comment from russian state media channels and social media. this is not the distance formation. this is completely new reality put in.

and his cronies are preparing for russian people. that is why it is so necessary to bring truth to bring their real real data on what is happening here in ukraine. the biggest challenge when it comes to spotting this information about the ongoing morning crane is just the sheer amount of information that spreading on my about the conflict. things can really develop quickly during more time things shift on the battlefield in a 2nd. and even when it comes to accurate information, that information can be completely obsolete or misleading. by the time you're sharing it potentially hours later. here to help us spot some of that. this information we have marina paramon, nova is a buyer, a strategic communications specialist whose work focuses on spotting miss and disinformation. also joining us, gregory, as ml off. he's a lecture at keens college in london and a scholar in the fields of digital entrepreneurship marketing in crisis

communication. and last but not least, ra blackie, a digital strategist who devised a plan to get news and information directly to the russian people. i welcome everyone. oh yeah, one more seat at the table. i want to tell you about nuts you. you're invited to be a part of this conversation. see that box over there. we have a lie producer waiting to get your questions and thoughts to me so i can come to our panelist and that way you to can be in the stream. alright. ah marina. tell us what, what are russians seeing right now how, how success was us? what, what does, because to me, it seems like there's 2 worlds that exist. there's a world, it's watching a war happen. and then there's russia, what are they seeing and russia now? absolutely. i think we would echoes the point that we just see so much different information being shared and it's really hard for people to make sense of it. i think most of their recent defamation attempts on

the russian side has been justifying the war. busy so it would range from like, you know, this new conspiracy about bio lab funded by the us to do anything else really. and i think it's kind of interesting because i think russia is torn between 2 opposites. they kind of want to, you know, reviews, anything that is connected to the west. they would say they were, for example, like evil and so on and the international or they're in, they, they, i is created by the west. so by expansion, it's kind of keep on stuff, but at the same time, they're trying to justify the invasion within this international order. so they use like talk with that from international law to justify the, you know, the invasion, they would say, you know, it wasn't until the fans, because the ukraine was finding an attack and things like that. so they're kind of torn. they don't know what they're doing,

they're kind of against the international or they're against the west, but they're also trying to play the rules and seem like the nice guys and all of that. hey marina connecting you to translate a hell line for me. this is on my computer. it's in russian. can you read that? yes. so the moscow is essentially something that was that what has been going on for 8 years and it was wasted by key if there are. yeah. yeah. or similar headline ending a war by sending 200000 troops on 3 different access points and to a nation i. i was a marine for a long time and then i became a war, corresponded for a long time, and i've never seen the war ended. that way that looks like the beginning of a war to me. like, i don't, it's kind of orwellian how you can take something and uses exact opposite meaning. but how successful gregory, can they actually be in this day and age with the internet like, it seems like the internet is kind of global as our own information level. the

major challenge for the russian authorities is the internal legitimacy of this conflict from the point of view of the russian audience, because they want to show that this is a just, or that this is very bored, that needs to be managed to. it's actually not the floor, but they're just immediately operation on the claim. and for the purpose, they rely on 3 elements. the 1st element is or isn't formation. very intensive measures for the state sponsored to be the 2nd element of this campaign, it relies on the installation of the russian audience from external independent sources. and finally, now we see that because of the situation in russia from kind of getting worse and because there are more information about casualties, still they try to conceal this information from the russian public. it seems that now this company, so easy to control, rob, i'm going to, if we can show my computer here, i want the audience to see this. this article says activists are using and to sneak

real news to russians about ukraine. rob, can you tell me about this show for me and is terrified for truth. there's this huge gap between what he is telling russian people and a reality. and the cause of fact, he's had to crush the dependent media and he's had to try and access the independent news for russians. and one of the things we've worked out is a huge loophole in the censorship. i'm at lou policy. you can still advertise on russian websites and we've actually gone out and we found loads of loopholes and his fences fit, and we're showing millions of ads every day to help russians find independent news about what's going on in the war and you cry. and so we can actually find out news for watching the ads, but also if you're clicking on the ads and doing something else so, so far, just in the last 2 weeks, we show our ads more than 27000000000 times. i've been clicked on more than 64000 times. so,

so far we have managed to get that through. and people seem to be really interested in the apps. and you can tell very interested because that is a video they watch from right to the end. and when they get the opportunity to click on something, they click much higher, right? you normally expect for the dislodge, that seems to be getting through to people. and i think that's really because russian people are really interested to find out what's going on at some level, lots of adding lights, right. how do you know the news that your ships who take independent high quality new sources and we use those as our basis of what we saw people i'm going to bring in a question from you to hear this is it says what's the difference between misinformation and false information, marina, i would say, will usually make a difference between misinformation and does not formation. and what makes the difference is misinformation. it is not done on purpose. you just, you know, read something somewhere and you may be, you know, pass it on,

but you didn't mean for it to be actually false or this information is done with in terms. and that's exactly what we're saying from the kremlin. yeah, and speaking the quint, carmen gregory, can you talk to me a bit about the steps that putin has taken to crush any kind of descent or free information in russia since the war began? so we see a lot of different measures and some of the measures were prepared in advance. but we can see that there are a lot of new forms of legislation that allows these to punish those who are trying to communicate any type of messages that are not according to the official services . so if you say no more, it's illegal and even independent media is not able to say no war anymore. so the legal aspect is one aspect and i thought is just easily yes, sorry, all of us, just so you could, you're saying you're not allowed to say no warning more. i want to bring in this video that we have of a producer at channel one in russia, marine off c and a cova here,

checked us out. and then we have to check on those cds. that one still ran precise . melissa does, the honestly, shall you, friday to saturday night. i mean does spoken with needs in those is completely up to triple and i do see that i'm still around with on the city shanghai friday to saturday night. so he's risking years in prison for that right. what are we going to santa rob? i'll just go say the interesting thing is censorship tends to be quite stupid. so he attends a band, i would like war, but they often forget to ban all the other words that mean. ready war or different ways of saying, or even subjects that implies a war might be bad. so for instance, lots of even russia right now asking how can they emigrate, or why am i energy prices so high? and so has a lot of ways round which censorship, i'm way of finding those every day. and of course, those sensors tend to only look to the words, but they've been told to ban,

not just everything. and in reality, for russian societies keep of functioning, they have to have the internet still going. they have to have the internet, they've already set up instagram. wow. that's true. but if you will, if your flower shop talking to customers, but if you are running, i don't know, refinery, you will probably need to order parts from china. i will do is, i'll just say i'm internet. so russia can't switch off the internet entirely. i'm not so nice a huge loophole for us to go for it. i think the main message from marina of some color that we would see just now, very brave ox on the russian t. v is not only about to just say no war, but the people should not fear. and she's not afraid to manifest attitudes towards what's going on. because it seems that many people in russia share some kind of understanding that something wrong is going on there. but they're really afraid and all this new knows. so she received the 1000 troubles for fine for, but she did. but today, several people who are actually received

a notice about criminal investigation. and then they may face up to 15 years in jail for saying something which is not according to the russian official version. so i think that the major challenge now it's not only about propaganda, but also trying to convince people that vision will be concern mentioned the fear to protest against what's happening. so marina, here's some more questions from you to how can we distinguish factual news from war, propaganda from both parties that are within the conflict? and here's another one that says, in order to thwart, do we need to know the history of russian disinformation practices? let's separate those 2 books, i'd actually like to get into the history of this a little bit. and that's a longer discussion. so can you talk about, how can we tell the actual news from war propaganda on both sides? marina, i would also like to add to the previous discussion a little bit on how we've seen the independent outlets trying to avoid the sort of

the ship and how they, for example, adopt the language of the kremlin, but use it for a, for example, with a mark, or they said, so cold, special operation though, technically they are not, you know, going to be getting the low, but they are, but they make it clear their position that they don't think it as a special operation is only as special information in quotation mark. in terms of the factional information, i think it's always important to check your sources, you know, re multiple sources. i'm sure like, especially with this war there is so much fact checking going on so much like the banking going also is important to always check that. and i think in terms, so russian propaganda, especially, i think we're seeing the same kind of, you know, tactics too with like a motive language, for example, there would, you know, use like, it was like not says kia, kia radicals or something like that. oh, it's

a very clear sign that again, but, you know, you mentioned i'll go ahead go ahead rub because i also believe the truth is the best way to inoculate people again, propaganda. because if i, if, if everyone believes that you just saw a wonderful person, whatever i say about you isn't actually is going to bounce off people. and so i think the key thing is not to spend all of our time explaining why the disinformation is wrong, is actually to give people the truth about what is happening. so the wife time talking about why the bio lab conspiracy, cherry is rubbish. we're actually not spending time telling people the truth, but they're ready scandals, which has many russian soldiers, a very fatty dying and ukraine for a complete point. this war we had a couple members of our stream community center send some video comments that i want to share with you guys has a lot of state sponsored, this information being pushed around. and some of that is just aimed to create

confusion and doubt making people not sure what they can believe. the 2nd thing that's happening is conspiracy theories and narratives are starting to leak into the conversation. and then finally, there's a lot of slack of isn't going on. a lot of people don't know how to help, and they want to amplify positive things. they want to amplify important videos are things that seem like other people should know about, but they're getting duped into quick likes and shares when they should be more careful. so when you come across these post, especially ones that elicit a severe emotional response, it's important to take a step back, not to take the information at face value, but instead take time to research and to confirm your data. whether it's with media outlets or locally cranium sources. and if you come across post that you know is this information you can reported, but do not interact with it. meaning do not re post, do not like do not comment. because even if you are disagreeing with the content,

you are still taking a part and spreading and giving it attention. right? so any engagement is engagement, even if you're disagreeing with it and you don't wanna engage with it at all. you know, one of the things that, that i found as i've reported on misinformation, to clean conspiracy theory is i think i had the i did that if you just give someone the facts, they'll clearly see that, that they have been deceived. and they would easily believe what the facts are, but it can actually be quite difficult. it's almost like malware in the brain to, to deprogram this kind of disinformation. in fact, last week on the stream, we had an al jazeera english producer that's been producing about the warned ukraine for 8 years. she is ukranian, and she was saying, how difficult it was. she had a number of relatives in russia that she just couldn't get to believe her about the facts here. i want to share her her by with you did just want to be blind,

you know they, they don't have accessed as a telegraph channels. and as far as understands the telegram channels will be also book bands and facebook are limited accessed. so the only which remnant to program to come coming from the state media such as are sierra russia, one 1st channel. so they just don't want to accept. so, and i keep sending messages when they, if i'm, if i will, dies the, my blot is on your consciousness of, on your, in your hands. so you just remember about that. i don't think they want to believe that i'm going to bring in one more question from our you tube audience. this is from francisco mora. what is a good source to listen to for russian news? i listen to american news, but need better sources to have less propaganda from both sides. i imagine gregory or, or marina, you might have some recommendations for where to get credible russian news. i think you already challenging, oh, i gave it to both of you. my fault, let's start with marina. thank you so much. yeah,

i guess it depends on what language you can consume this new as of course, if it's just english, i would still recommend, for example, me do is that which is the russian news source, but it's available in english. so i think it's just, you will be getting that kind of russian perspective. but like independent russian perspective, if you, if you know russian language, i think there are quite a few sources they can still be consuming like, 1st up like, you know, torch abele and russian or again, me do then russian and so, so many other sources and i think this franco to, i think they're very important point, is that it did the very important time to support the russian language media right now. either a base and other context. for example, i'm here and rica, and we have quite a few rational in which media outlets that try to accurately and timely cover the war or a we should support other. you know, me,

doubtless that based in russia for example. no, it's still reporting in russia or some of the russian language meet the others that have left russia, but based on the europe. so it is very important that this information is accessible. and there no, gregory, looking at this hasn't been had a lot of success with using just information internationally. i mean, i'm thinking about the 2016 us election. i'm thinking about the influence over the brakes. it vote, it seems to me like maybe his, his successors might of lead him to believe that this was going to be easier than it was or is. yeah, i think we're face a situation when actually at this point of time a russia even doesn't try russian authorities doesn't really try to win this information more internationally. so from this point of view, i think that the many assumptions by criminal been the beginning of this conflict. eventually we're wrong about the way this contract is going to develop. but let me

just briefly say something because i really want to take this point from country. now your producer that you mentioned that there is a lot of conflicts now between generations, between parents and children, and this type of conflicts really prove and show that it's not enough just to provide an access doctor's information to convince people it's much, much more challenging to address this type of problems and we see a lot of really painful concepts, but then people right now. so i think what is really important is the focus on that type of information to really meet challenge, the perception of the conflict. and i think the major type of this information is really information about casualties. the rational sort of this report that just wants official information about casualties among russian soldiers. there is a constant flow of information about casualties from ukrainian sources about the russian side. but you from the russian audience will realize what price russia pays for this conflict. it will really challenge the state sponsor narrative. and now when put in, prepare the extra strategist, it seems like the major next major challenge for russian propaganda is going to be hard to actually explain some kind of treaty that when we're facing to convince

rational dance, that this was a victory for russia. and this is going to be another challenge, and we shouldn't allow russian propaganda to convince russian audience that it was a victory. and you know, a club. how can they keep casualty numbers, maybe whole numbers, you could keep that secret. but as bodies come back and funerals happen and families talk to each other, doesn't the truth always get out? i think it does slowly and obviously that was a problem. the soviet union had been asked to stop in the 1980s, which was even with the repression of the soviet union. they really couldn't control that. and i think now that's apparently starting to happen a bit through local media, russia, where a local newspaper might report one or 2 people locally being killed in the war. ukraine and people gradually start this even start to realize it's quite a major happens to somebody in that town or somebody nearby. and i think that will get true. and i think also the parents themselves are going to be avenging since

the war started. because i believe that they thought this was going to go really quickly and they probably had a plan in place. but as this drags out, has he had to change his strategy on the information warfare? i think definitely, and as i mentioned, there are of the efforts to justify the work kind of to the international audience . but there is definitely a lot of increased effort to justify this, to the internal audiences in russia because it's becoming quite clear that it's not going according to the plan. it's being like very much dr. on and prolonged on the quick week, terry and quicker, you know, success of put in program fish and it's just not happening. and i want to bring in another question from you to hear. this is hermes. how important is a consumer's preconceived bias in misinformation campaigns? gregory, can you, can you touch on that or rob? look, you want to jump in there. i guess we can see. yeah,

i think that we can see that generally the russian audience will consume in this type of propaganda for many years. so there is some kind of bias because of the audience that receive the same type of information for many years. it's just more kind of receptive, it's ready to be more vulnerable for this type of propaganda. and then the international audience at the send them again, that's the situation that we're face now when we need to think about more creative ways to bypass it. so i really like what from does i think that also we can see some very interesting ideas about coming back to a short waves and broadcasting for traditional old radio. we can also think about the role of satellite internet as well. so there are very creative and interesting technological ways to try to bypass this full of censorship in order to make sure that the best to able to challenge the russian people going to internally. and it's worth remembering. people aren't consistent in that box is all the belief none of us saw and say somebody might absolutely think ukraine it full of nazis about they

might also think war is a bad thing because too many people have been killed. and so some messages will resume some people by my office, i think possibly triggers to try a range of messages to find which one fits which one people are willing to listen to. and rob i have less than a minute here, but i'm just curious. if they figure out a way to block the pop up ads, do you have a plan b here? we've got many different ways of getting around a censorship. and so far we've actually been finding more ways to deliver advertising as our campaign has gone on, rather than fewer. so we seem to be running outlining them, at least for now. i'm sure you'll probably builds out right. one much questions on . thank you. thank you. i like to thank all of my guest did a on this show and i can tell you you've already found it. this is a source of real information the truth, but for out to 0 dot com. keep an eye on the stream as we cover this developing story. i'll see you next on

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